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Old 27th Jun 2012, 15:48
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That schedule has LHR 'slot-sitter' written all over it!
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 16:17
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No Lourdes flights this summer.
for some reason they have all gone to DSA.
strange, anybody know why ?
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 16:58
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Are you sure about that sam dilly?

As the Leeds & Ripon Diocesan Lourdes charter flight operated by Titan Airways departs LBA, next Friday, July 6th and returns on Thursday, July 12th according to the Tagney Tour website.

Also if you didn't know Mistral Air and Alitalia are operating a few charters from Italy over the next 2 months for some reason.

Tuesday, July 3rd = Mistral Air, B733
Thursday, July 5th = Mistral Air, B733
Sunday, July 8th = Alitalia, A320
Sunday, July 22nd = Alitalia, A320
Sunday, August 5th = Alitalia, A320
Sunday, August 19th = Alitalia, A320

Last edited by LBIA; 27th Jun 2012 at 17:00.
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 16:58
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Originally Posted by PAPAROMA
That schedule has LHR 'slot-sitter' written all over it!
I'd absolutely agree. (In that respect it joins the W12 DUB-LHR schedule. )
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 17:54
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Nightstopping isn't really expensive. However, it doesn't happen willy Nilly and I think we all now realise that domestic LHR isn't, and really shouldn't be, aimed at the point to point market, especially day returns.
Domestically, the service cannot compete point to point with the train. The route is aimed purley at the connecting market similar to that that exist on the MAN-LHR shuttles whose breakdown of passengers consist of about 80-90% transferring.
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 18:01
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Sorry LBIA, but the Lourdes charters start this Sunday with 2 from DSA
As are the next 3 flights, over the next 2 weeks. Not a lot, but this has been LBA traffic for years, why did Tangey take the business away ?
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 18:11
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Sam Dilly are you sure they not the Hallam Diocese Pilgrimages to Lourdes operating from Doncaster-Sheffield?

As they have done so for the past 5 or 6 years now and are due to be operated over the period of Sunday 1st July to Friday 6th July 2012.

Last edited by LBIA; 27th Jun 2012 at 18:12.
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 22:08
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Actually in my experience, and having operated many, many LHR-MAN and MAN-LHR sectors, we certainly don't have 80-90% of the pax onboard connecting from LHR.

More like 30-40% at the very most.

Kind regards

Mike
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 22:15
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I believe BA are operating from/to T1, so slot sitter is right, it would be into T5 if they wer looking for onward pax!
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Old 27th Jun 2012, 23:30
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There might not be enough room at T5 to operate from there at the moment. In terms of connectors using MAN-LHR and vv, i'm sure BA said a few years ago that 75% of the combined BA/BD passengers to LHR were connecting.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 00:40
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How contstrained is T5 on domestic? Is it just stands 501, 502, 503, 505, 506 which have access to UK arrivals? Given they were flying GLA, EDI, ABZ, NCL and MAN, no one really expected any more domestic destinations to be added when T5 was built. I mean had you suggested BA would be flying LBA-LHR four daily on the A319 most would have scoffed at the thought.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 09:36
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Essentially you are correct. 501-506 can be used for domestic arrivals. And yes, it is very congested. Of course, in theory any stand can be used but the passengers will need to be bussed to the T5A domestic arrivals area.

Now that BMI is in house there will never be enough room at T5 to accomodate all the routes - we'll be operating out of T1 and T3 indefinitely.
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 11:54
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Just some thoughts I'd like to put down about the 'positive spin' being put out by some people about the LHR route, before the first flight has ever taken off.

BA have had this order in for new long haul aircraft for some time. I guess they must have had a credible plan for using them within the then existing slot availabilty. Somehow I don't believe they ordered them on the off chance that a load of spare slots would suddenly fall into their lap.

Of course, they may well want to use some of the windfall of bmi slots for long haul expansion, but as they have said, they need quality feeder traffic to go with them. This is what the LBA flights are designed to do, forget the old concept of day returns to the capital, it is dead. BD couldn't make it work from Leeds nor could BE. The train is far superior at doing this, I would suggest from all English regions, apart from possibly the far south west. Scotland may have a stronger claim to this sort of traffic, but their airports also have significant numbers of flights to LGW, LCY etc. to cater for this.

Now, if in due course BA do decide to convert some domestic slots at LHR into long haul, here are some statistics to consider:

North east- pop. 2.6m; pop. growth (2001-10) 2.6%;
flights to LHR 6

North west- pop. 6.9m; pop. growth (") 2.4%;
flights to LHR 17

Scotland- pop. 5.2m; pop. growth (") 3.1%;
flights to LHR 38

Yks/Hbr- pop. 5.3m; pop. growth (") 6.8%;
flights to LHR 4

Flights are from all airports in region, so for Scotland means ABZ, EDI and GLA, and are for a typical weekday in December, as taken from BA timetable. I have ignored other London airports. Other data is from ONS.

Now, where would you reduce capacity to make extra long haul slots available?
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Old 28th Jun 2012, 22:16
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Quote: "That schedule has LHR 'slot-sitter' written all over it!"

Not neccesarily, it operates to/from LHR5, so ideal for connections.

Quote: "Domestically, the service cannot compete point to point with the train. The route is aimed purley at the connecting market similar to that that exist on the MAN-LHR shuttles whose breakdown of passengers consist of about 80-90% transferring."

This is true for city centre to city centre, except on sundays when there are no fast trains and weekends when there is engineering work.

Not all pax are doing city centre to city centre journeys. This extends choice and offers alternatives so beneficial all round.

Quote: "How contstrained is T5 on domestic? Is it just stands 501, 502, 503, 505, 506 which have access to UK arrivals? Given they were flying GLA, EDI, ABZ, NCL and MAN, no one really expected any more domestic destinations to be added when T5 was built."

AFAIK, 507,508 and 509 also have access to UK arrivals, 510 (gate A10) is the "back to the 1960s gate", for those unfortunates taking a bus to a remote stand.

Quote: "I mean had you suggested BA would be flying LBA-LHR four daily on the A319 most would have scoffed at the thought."

Excellent, good to see that route revived! Hope it's not the only one.

Quote: Just some thoughts I'd like to put down about the 'positive spin' being put out by some people about the LHR route, before the first flight has ever taken off.

BA have had this order in for new long haul aircraft for some time. I guess they must have had a credible plan for using them within the then existing slot availabilty. Somehow I don't believe they ordered them on the off chance that a load of spare slots would suddenly fall into their lap.

Of course, they may well want to use some of the windfall of bmi slots for long haul expansion, but as they have said, they need quality feeder traffic to go with them. This is what the LBA flights are designed to do, forget the old concept of day returns to the capital, it is dead. BD couldn't make it work from Leeds nor could BE. The train is far superior at doing this, I would suggest from all English regions, apart from possibly the far south west. Scotland may have a stronger claim to this sort of traffic, but their airports also have significant numbers of flights to LGW, LCY etc. to cater for this.

Now, if in due course BA do decide to convert some domestic slots at LHR into long haul, here are some statistics to consider:

North east- pop. 2.6m; pop. growth (2001-10) 2.6%;
flights to LHR 6

North west- pop. 6.9m; pop. growth (") 2.4%;
flights to LHR 17

Scotland- pop. 5.2m; pop. growth (") 3.1%;
flights to LHR 38

Yks/Hbr- pop. 5.3m; pop. growth (") 6.8%;
flights to LHR 4

Flights are from all airports in region, so for Scotland means ABZ, EDI and GLA, and are for a typical weekday in December, as taken from BA timetable. I have ignored other London airports. Other data is from ONS.

Now, where would you reduce capacity to make extra long haul slots available?"


BA have stated that the split of the new slots will be about one third longhaul and two thirds shorthaul, which makes sense.

Without decent feeds, many longhaul routes are unsustainable, at least in the short term.

Some of the ABZ, EDI, and GLA slots have to be divested eventually, so the Scotland figures will be reduced. It's unlikely that there will be 17 MAN-LHR flights/day forever, 3-4 shifted to LPL would be good, probably unlikely though.
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Old 29th Jun 2012, 10:10
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Yes, if anyone from BA route planning is reading, I vote for a LPL-LHR route, great feed potential for sure!
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Old 29th Jun 2012, 12:30
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Now, where would you reduce capacity to make extra long haul slots available?
The current combined 17 per day MAN - LHR schedule becomes 11 per day in W12. That allows 4 to be rejigged into the LBA service and 2 spare for the pot. Similar patterns will exist on the Scottish routes thus the already announced Longhaul expansion to Seoul etc. Next will be a cull of the`BMI midhaul routes.

I see LBA as a long term plan not slot sitting........

Last edited by ETOPS; 29th Jun 2012 at 12:30.
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Old 29th Jun 2012, 13:29
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LEEDS 5

Well if we are going to have Liverpool the. Let's have Dsa and Or HUY
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Old 29th Jun 2012, 13:33
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Worth remembering that no Scottish city is within 2 to 3 hours surface journey of London, so wouldnít you kind of expect there to be greater demand for domestic air travel between Scotland and LHR, than there would be to parts of Northern England?

Also, Scotlandís airports arenít nearly as well served for direct international flights as MAN, even though things are slowly improving, so again the LHR flights remain important for connecting Scotland to the wider world.

Edinburgh is the second most visited city in the UK, and Glasgow and the Highlands also rank quite highly. Also, factor in Aberdeenís exceptionally strong demand for business flights, and itís not hard to see why BA might determine that there is a greater call for flights to the Scottish airports than there might be to airports in northern England. Simply looking at population factors close to each airport doesnít tell the full story in terms of total demand to/from an airport. You have to look beyond the UK to see what the inbound demand is like too!
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Old 29th Jun 2012, 17:32
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Problem with DSA and HUY they don't have the industry and economy to support the route and to the volume necessary, the LPL and surrounding economy is massive, I believe 2nd largest outside London (NW in general that is?)
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Old 29th Jun 2012, 21:41
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It's a great achievement for LBA to attract a LHR service and I really hope the route is a success! However, once the 787 and A380 arrive and BA are granted access to airport capacity in China then these flights will disappear. Shame for the airport I know.

Anyone who understands airline economics will know that longhaul far exceeds shorthaul on a return-on-investment basis for a carrier like BA. Airports such as AMS, FRA and CDG are all supporting new, regional Chinese (and other far east destinations) services for which LHR has a long wait list for.

MAN, LBA and RTM (potentially) are all slot-sitter services ex LHR.

However, I really hope LBA take full advantage of this service and work together with BA to maximise the potential, however long the route may operate.
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