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Old 9th Jul 2016, 14:22
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Originally Posted by BKS Air Transport
LA-I don't accept your analogy, in that LBA and DSA are not in that same 'high street', they both have their own. Had proper provision been made for two airports, one to serve Leeds and one to serve Sheffield many years ago, we would not now see the dominance that MAN has over the north of the country. But we are as we are, and we must now make the best of it (and one airport at Church Fenton is most certainly not that-it would be an attempt at compromise doomed to failure).


Manchester has most certainly aided many people from east of the Pennines over the years in that it has sent them on their holidays. It was this comparative ease that was used as an excuse to oppose both applications to extend the runway at Leeds. Whether MAN has helped Leeds obtain international inward investment in meaningful amounts is a very different question, and I personally have seen little evidence to suggest that it has.
You quite clearly do not understand the relationship between catchment area population and the ability of an airport to have sustainable routes! If every city had its own airport very few routes would be viable - exactly opposite to your reasoning. For instance if your catchment was too small you would not even be able to make routes to Dublin and Belfast (for example) work. That is why the geographic location of an airport is utterly critical in making that airport a success. Exactly what is going wrong in Yorkshire.

Because Yorkshire and Humberside is surrounded by efficient, well located competing airports within their regions having more than 1 airport within Yorkshire will directly leave to massive massive passenger leakage and gigantic failure.
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 14:44
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No facts and figures have been offered, except to say that Yorkshire has a bigger population than Scotland. What you fail to grasp is that Yorkshire generates only 50% of the number of air passengers that Scotland does. The number in the Nort West is around 6 million more than Yorkshire generates. This is why MAN has developed to the extent it has. They have merely facilitated growth through demand. MAN hasn't grown off the back of lack of suitable facilities at this side of the Pennines.

DSA was developed to facilitate the 'huge untapped demand' in Yorkshire, however uptake has been minimal. Nobody is going to allow for another new airport in the region, nobody is going to pay for one either. Especially not after the opening of DSA. LBA will continue to grow to meet local demand, DSA may or may not. I suggest you take your ill informed ramblings on to your fantasy thread and leave this one for its intended purpose.
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:10
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Your fingers are firmly in your ears! So Scotland must move around 25 million pax (using your very off figures). 50% of that is 12.5 million pax. Yet all 4 Yorkshire airports move much less than 5 million passengers! That is because more people are leaving the region to fly than are staying in it due directly to location of airport/ characteristic of airport/number of internal competing airports.

Thank you pug for totally and unreservedly proving the case for the improvement of Yorkshire airport strategy. Can Yorkshire do better - 100% yes and pug proves it!
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:21
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Can Yorkshire do better - 100% yes
So what should be done and who's going to be paying for it?
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:24
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Yorkshire actually generated 9.4 million passengers in most recent available statistics. Scotland was double that, the North West was 15 million. There are 3 airports in Yorkshire and Humberside, not 4. Nobody is going to build a wall around Yorkshire, so nobody is going to stop the flow of passengers to airports just outside of the boundary (or to London airports, for that matter). So your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Just to quote some propensity to fly (per person) statistics;

London 2.94
Scotland 1.72
South East 1.44
North West 1.01
Eastern England 0.96
East Midlands 0.76
West Midlands 0.75
South West 0.73
Yorkshire and Humber 0.72

Are you going to go off and argue with yourself on your fantasy thread now LA?
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:26
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That is because more people are leaving the region to fly than are staying in it due directly to location of airport/ characteristic of airport/number of internal competing airports.
What evidence have you to support this statement?
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:28
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Glasgow to Leeds Bradford. April 2016. 461 Passengers down 41% from April 2015 when there was 783.

Location of airport
Accessibility of airport
Functionality of airport
Number of competing airports within potential catchment

How many people who reside in Yorkshire and the Humber are leaving Yorkshire and the Humber to fly to Glasgow because of 1 or more of the points above? Is the number affecting the viability of the route I ask?
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:36
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Originally Posted by pug
Yorkshire actually generated 9.4 million passengers in most recent available statistics. Scotland was double that, the North West was 15 million. There are 3 airports in Yorkshire and Humberside, not 4. Nobody is going to build a wall around Yorkshire, so nobody is going to stop the flow of passengers to airports just outside of the boundary (or to London airports, for that matter). So your argument is fundamentally flawed.

Just to quote some propensity to fly (per person) statistics;

London 2.94
Scotland 1.72
South East 1.44
North West 1.01
Eastern England 0.96
East Midlands 0.76
West Midlands 0.75
South West 0.73
Yorkshire and Humber 0.72

Are you going to go off and argue with yourself on your fantasy thread now LA?
All been done before - take away somebodies train station and they are less likely to buy a train ticket!

Exactly my friend nobody is going to stop the flow of passengers out of your defined catchment area - so you do you utmost to encourage them to stay in it by providing an ideally located and accessible airport that functions properly. You prove the argument again pug - because in reality there is no debate! Can Yorkshire do better - Yes.
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:37
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What an insanely stupid example to use. Does it not occur to you that more people may be jumping on the train or driving rather than paying more to fly?

I think LA has been using the below as part of his 'research'..

https://youtu.be/6VLYpKGVBUg

Obviously according to LA, Yorkshire people are so stubborn they refuse to fly from an airport outside of Yorkshire.. 'If it's outside Yorkshire, it's not worth bloody visiting'. Aint that right, Leeds Approach?
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:39
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You've singled out one route there where passengers numbers may have fallen for all sorts of reasons, none of which are likely to be related to what you say. Overall, passenger figures at LBA continue to increase.
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:44
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Originally Posted by TSR2
What evidence have you to support this statement?
This is caa back upable. Just short of 5 million are flying from MAN alone when I last checked some months ago. Then there are 100s of thousands to Liverpool. 100s of thousands to East Midlands etc etc etc
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:44
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I live in the Humber area. The most convenient airport is humberside but it can never compete on price.If i am going short haul on holiday, the drive time to LBA is 2 hours, to MAN is 2h 25m. MAN is generally cheaper but not always but MAN is so much more convenient for parking that is usually the decider. IF i am going long haul MAN is usually the most convenient, i generally fly business on long haul and when price comes into it LON is usually cheapest including a hotel at London. Occassionally flight times suit the train and then MAN wins hands down.
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:51
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For every 3 people who reside in the North West and are flying from Manchester airport there is 1 person who lives in Yorkshire and Humberside who has travelled all the way there to fly!

Not to Tegucigalpa or Manila but to Frankfurt, Brussels, Florida, Dubai - and many many more routes that are 100% viable from a well located and accessible unrestricted airport within Yorkshire that pools the catchment population in exactly the same way that for example BHX does.
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:54
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DSA is within Yorkshire, but apparently that doesn't count according to LA..

You have no statistics to prove those destinations are '100% viable' though, have you..
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 15:58
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Originally Posted by BKS Air Transport
You've singled out one route there where passengers numbers may have fallen for all sorts of reasons, none of which are likely to be related to what you say. Overall, passenger figures at LBA continue to increase.
I would go and have a look at which routes have dropped my friend - especially since there have been 20+ tickets floating around in the region. Have you noticed the fk70s?
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 16:16
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Originally Posted by pug
DSA is within Yorkshire, but apparently that doesn't count according to LA..

You have no statistics to prove those destinations are '100% viable' though, have you..
Would Cork or Glasgow for example benefit from 1 extra person from South Yorkshire using the service? Virtually no body from South Yorkshire is flying from LBA as a ratio. It really isn't rocket science - the bigger your catchment combined with your ability to keep it = greater number of routes/cheaper routes/better frequency of routes. Yorkshire and its people benefit overall.

As for your 1st line - I'm not sure what you are talking about.
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 16:22
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Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
having 2 poorly equipped florists on the high street means they both suffer. Much better to have 1 efficient florist in the best location on the high street.
True. But then someone has to acquire suitable premises and invest heavily in them to make them suitable for purpose. And when they've done that they have to attract custom from the two existing florists which may not have ideal premises but have built up a loyal customer base which sees no obvious reason to shop elsewhere. So how will the new florist - now heavily in debt - attract the custom it needs to operate profitably?
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 16:30
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DSA is relatively central, and could by your theory flourish should LBA close in favour of one airport. So why not focus growth in DSA?
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 16:32
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Originally Posted by Andy_S
True. But then someone has to acquire suitable premises and invest heavily in them to make them suitable for purpose. And when they've done that they have to attract custom from the two existing florists which may not have ideal premises but have built up a loyal customer base which sees no obvious reason to shop elsewhere. So how will the new florist - now heavily in debt - attract the custom it needs to operate profitably?
That's all very clear and correct. It also [critically] makes some gigantic assumptions about the florists.
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Old 9th Jul 2016, 16:35
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Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
That's all very clear and correct. It also [critically] makes some gigantic assumptions about the florists.
Just as you, I believe, have made some gigantic assumptions about the nature of the aviation industry.
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