MANCHESTER - 6
India? what via bloody Brussels? Great eh.?!!....Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA spokesman said the 44-year-old service to JFK Airport
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skipness - You are right, it wasn't 44 consecutive years. There was no BA MAN-JFK between 1981 (VC10s and 707s) and 1985 when the service re-commenced with KT (Br. Airtours) Tristars as BA183/182. Anyway, doesn't it go back further? - I'm sure that BOAC started service from Manchester to Idlewild via Prestwick/Gander/Montreal or similar route in the 1950s with Stratocruisers and DC-7s. A bit before my time - but only just! Sabena had of course beaten them to it.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: England
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
with the exception of Antigua, that is a once-a-week additional leg on from Barbados.
It would be nice if they could actually get the facts right about routes that operate from the airport for which they are the spokesman...
It would be nice if they could actually get the facts right about routes that operate from the airport for which they are the spokesman...
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MAN's long-haul back to greatness
The loss of bmi long-haul from MAN is no surprise yet a body blow to the short-to-medium term aspirations of an airport which has always seen itself to be something more than just a large regional airport. The familiar words about low yields reveal the limitations as to what an airport company can do to help make services profitable if the catchment market won't pay the required fares.
Yet for my money, MAN remains in the longer term the best placed (in every sense) UK regional to grow long-haul services. Given the apparent economics of full-service long-haul, I find it difficult to understand the fragmentation we have seen in recent years across the UK regions:- Emirates from NCL, PIA from LBA, Air India from BHX, US Air from BHX next year. Of course there are local niche markets for these services, but in aviation-geography terms these airports are rather near to Heathrow and very near to MAN, which has excellent surface access. One would question the economics of spreading cost and resources across what is effectively the same catchment in order to gain perhaps a crumb or two of market-share. Such fragmentation has undermined MAN's role as the principal gateway airport outside London and in my opinion stifled the development of a critical mass of long-haul services here. LBA is not much nearer, and a damn site harder to get to from most of West Yorkshire, than is MAN. To have intercontinental services departing from cities just 40 miles apart to the same destinations is curious economics. Me wonders whether some local politics / diplomacy amongst the ex-pat communities is involved?
MAN - 2 x 3000+m runways, 24H opening, CAT III, rail station, direct motorway link, 3 terminals, cargo centre, arguably the second city-region of the UK. Surely, only MAN makes sense if and when tentative toes are poked out from beyond the big smoke 15 west of London.
Yet for my money, MAN remains in the longer term the best placed (in every sense) UK regional to grow long-haul services. Given the apparent economics of full-service long-haul, I find it difficult to understand the fragmentation we have seen in recent years across the UK regions:- Emirates from NCL, PIA from LBA, Air India from BHX, US Air from BHX next year. Of course there are local niche markets for these services, but in aviation-geography terms these airports are rather near to Heathrow and very near to MAN, which has excellent surface access. One would question the economics of spreading cost and resources across what is effectively the same catchment in order to gain perhaps a crumb or two of market-share. Such fragmentation has undermined MAN's role as the principal gateway airport outside London and in my opinion stifled the development of a critical mass of long-haul services here. LBA is not much nearer, and a damn site harder to get to from most of West Yorkshire, than is MAN. To have intercontinental services departing from cities just 40 miles apart to the same destinations is curious economics. Me wonders whether some local politics / diplomacy amongst the ex-pat communities is involved?
MAN - 2 x 3000+m runways, 24H opening, CAT III, rail station, direct motorway link, 3 terminals, cargo centre, arguably the second city-region of the UK. Surely, only MAN makes sense if and when tentative toes are poked out from beyond the big smoke 15 west of London.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: birmingham
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Being a Brummie I would have to take issue with the claim that MAN serves the second city region, but that's for another forum!
The real surprise for me in all of this is that in recent years and months the local economy of Manchester and Salford has grown beyond recognition and grown with quality jobs not just standard call centres or retail led employment. Alongside this economic leap, which to be fair has seen Manchester gain a credible argument to make a claim for being the UKs second city it's airport has seen business related routes thin out.
All that said MAN still has excellent connections around the world, most UK airports would kill for its route network!
The real surprise for me in all of this is that in recent years and months the local economy of Manchester and Salford has grown beyond recognition and grown with quality jobs not just standard call centres or retail led employment. Alongside this economic leap, which to be fair has seen Manchester gain a credible argument to make a claim for being the UKs second city it's airport has seen business related routes thin out.
All that said MAN still has excellent connections around the world, most UK airports would kill for its route network!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: scotland
Posts: 760
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the sad news of BD dropping the Manchester longhaul, will anyone step in and take over them. I can see VS boosting there BGI and maybe starting a ANU but would they have an aircraft to cover the route. Also would VS consider MAN-LAS or will they leave it to the TCX charter ?
Any thoughts ?
Any thoughts ?
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Liverpool
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"an additional four new destinations in India through Brussels Airlines." Oh come on, talk about clutching at straws!!! Surely, the Manchester Airport PR department cannot be that desperate. If so, Liverpool John Lennon Airport has just gained an additional 100 new destinations through KLM!!!
And by the way, I travelled from Manchester on Friday morning and the flight announcer was announcing the departure of the SN Brussels Airlines flight to Brussels, at least get the airline name right when you do announcements.
And by the way, I travelled from Manchester on Friday morning and the flight announcer was announcing the departure of the SN Brussels Airlines flight to Brussels, at least get the airline name right when you do announcements.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Manchester
Age: 73
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK take the yield argument at face value and move the most appropriate aircraft to the most appropriate station - BUT
I am advised that these routes are profitable NOW in the depth of the worst economic storm in decades.
Why would any business walk away from a profitable business when no doubt there are hulls stored out of use in the Arizona desert that could be leased in at affordable rates to maintain service and income.
What is the fascination with Heathrow and why are regional SLF being asked to put up with another five hours or so on long haul journeys when spoke and hub is so patently unnecessary?
That aspect really does make no sense
I am advised that these routes are profitable NOW in the depth of the worst economic storm in decades.
Why would any business walk away from a profitable business when no doubt there are hulls stored out of use in the Arizona desert that could be leased in at affordable rates to maintain service and income.
What is the fascination with Heathrow and why are regional SLF being asked to put up with another five hours or so on long haul journeys when spoke and hub is so patently unnecessary?
That aspect really does make no sense
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the road
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TBirdFrank...sounds like you're in denial like most at MAN/BHX/Gla/Edi etc etc..there is only a limited amount of people who will pay the required yields to support longhaul ex regions and they just aren't enough. Load factor means nothing. The only thing that matters is revenue or, more accurately, contribution. People criticize BA for funnelling people through LHR and then praise KL/AF/LH/EK for funnelling through their hubs at AMS/CDG/FRA/MUC/DXB when they are actually doing exactly the same thing as BA but not through London (God forbid). How dumb is that? The bottom line is that there is not enough point-to-point traffic to sustain longhaul ex-MAN but foreign carriers are actually better placed to sustain longhaul as they are feeding into THEIR hubs as well as servicing the limited point-to-point market. That's why they can make it work and BA can't. Rocket science it ain't. 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Where ever they send me
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TartinTon, what you say is blindingly obvious and I can't understand how people can't see that. There are so many posters on here who praise AA/CO/DL/EK etc... for carrying passengers via their hubs, yet crucify BA and now BD for doing the same thing.
TBirdFrank... I would love to know who has advised you that "these routes are profitable NOW".
If you honestly believe that BD (and BA) have dropped their longhaul routes from MAN inspite of them being profitable then you are just plain stupid and have got sucked into this whole UK airlines hate serving the UK regions bullsh*t. Yes it is a shame that BD and BA have pulled out, but to say that they would axe profitable routes just to spite the regions is deluded. Both companies have a responsibilty primarily to their shareholders to maximise profit, and have taken these decisions in the light of the current economic climate. Why should they settle for second best by operating longhaul from the regions when they can make the most return for their investment by flying from LHR?
I am advised that these routes are profitable NOW in the depth of the worst economic storm in decades.
Why would any business walk away from a profitable business
Why would any business walk away from a profitable business
If you honestly believe that BD (and BA) have dropped their longhaul routes from MAN inspite of them being profitable then you are just plain stupid and have got sucked into this whole UK airlines hate serving the UK regions bullsh*t. Yes it is a shame that BD and BA have pulled out, but to say that they would axe profitable routes just to spite the regions is deluded. Both companies have a responsibilty primarily to their shareholders to maximise profit, and have taken these decisions in the light of the current economic climate. Why should they settle for second best by operating longhaul from the regions when they can make the most return for their investment by flying from LHR?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
when no doubt there are hulls stored out of use in the Arizona desert that could be leased in at affordable rates
And before anyone jumps in, the 757s are operated by Astraeus....on behalf of BMI.
Pilot of the Airwaves
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Close to the Med
Age: 74
Posts: 812
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
TartinTom and bmiexpat
It is you and not TBirdFrank who are being taken in here. If you wish to believe figures produced by corporate bean counters, configured in such a way as to produce the results that "management" want to support their actions, it shows your lack of experience and that you are not worldly wise in business practices, that have been doing the rounds for the last 25 years or more.
All you are doing is believing "facts" that company management want you to, without question and as it's coming from such large corporate bodies, then it must be correct.
All senior management are interested in is self glorification, their pay cheques and their bonuses. They have to be seen to be at the controls, even if they are not and their decisions, whilst looking good in the short term are a disaster waiting to happen in the longer term.....when they have moved on to pastures new and someone else comes in to clear up their mess, unfortunately again with a short term fix.
It is you and not TBirdFrank who are being taken in here. If you wish to believe figures produced by corporate bean counters, configured in such a way as to produce the results that "management" want to support their actions, it shows your lack of experience and that you are not worldly wise in business practices, that have been doing the rounds for the last 25 years or more.
All you are doing is believing "facts" that company management want you to, without question and as it's coming from such large corporate bodies, then it must be correct.
All senior management are interested in is self glorification, their pay cheques and their bonuses. They have to be seen to be at the controls, even if they are not and their decisions, whilst looking good in the short term are a disaster waiting to happen in the longer term.....when they have moved on to pastures new and someone else comes in to clear up their mess, unfortunately again with a short term fix.
Some of these services that have been pulled, have been over booked in the past. If that has not produced the right yield, then it is the airlines pricing structure that has been wrong.
As for LHR hubbing. Knowledgable Mancunians will know, whenever BA has ANY wiff of any minor hic-cup in their system the first things they do is CANCEL all their domestics. Thus leaving all their regional pax stranded. This simply does not happen with KLM. Luftie etc........and that is why many, esp me !! would not dream of risking the LHR Shuttles.
As for LHR hubbing. Knowledgable Mancunians will know, whenever BA has ANY wiff of any minor hic-cup in their system the first things they do is CANCEL all their domestics. Thus leaving all their regional pax stranded. This simply does not happen with KLM. Luftie etc........and that is why many, esp me !! would not dream of risking the LHR Shuttles.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: On the road
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IB4138...what colour is the sky on your planet exactly?
You're quite right to point out my lack of experience in all things airline as I've only worked for them for the last 25 years of which the last 20 has been in Revenue Management.
I bow to your superior grasp of the "facts"
Please don't preach your jaundiced views to me on airline senior management.
Do you REALLY think that airlines don't want to operate routes that make a profit? Are you REALLY that stupid???
Mr A Tis...getting the wrong yield CAN be a function of the wrong pricing structure but more often it's just a case of the market not being prepared to pay (as is the case with Manchester). Airlines will try and get loads on flights in the short term and take a loss with a view to building a market.
That's called investment.
If the market fails to respond to economically viable prices after having built and invested in a market then of course the airline will cut its losses and re-invest elsewhere.
As for cancelling domestic flights at times of disruption, that actually makes perfect sense. You can always get a train or drive.
I suspect that KLM, LH etc also do exactly the same thing. They try not to cancel flights that have to go over water as it's a long way to swim.....
You're quite right to point out my lack of experience in all things airline as I've only worked for them for the last 25 years of which the last 20 has been in Revenue Management.
I bow to your superior grasp of the "facts"
Please don't preach your jaundiced views to me on airline senior management.
Do you REALLY think that airlines don't want to operate routes that make a profit? Are you REALLY that stupid???
Mr A Tis...getting the wrong yield CAN be a function of the wrong pricing structure but more often it's just a case of the market not being prepared to pay (as is the case with Manchester). Airlines will try and get loads on flights in the short term and take a loss with a view to building a market.
That's called investment.
If the market fails to respond to economically viable prices after having built and invested in a market then of course the airline will cut its losses and re-invest elsewhere.
As for cancelling domestic flights at times of disruption, that actually makes perfect sense. You can always get a train or drive.
I suspect that KLM, LH etc also do exactly the same thing. They try not to cancel flights that have to go over water as it's a long way to swim.....
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For the ten billionth time, BA have no bloody choice but to axe the Shuttles as Heathrow is maxed out in normal operations and there is no leeway when the weather gets involved. Hence when fog / winds hit you have options :
A) Land the inbound Hong Kong that has been holding at Lambourne for 45 mins
B ) Divert the above flight with 350+ pax
You choose to land the above but to free a slot you need to consolidate as many of the domestic shuttles together to free up space in the sequence as ATC are under pressure
Result? 350 long haul passengers get into the right airport and your domestic passengers get home late.
Or there's option 2 which is try and run the normal schedule which would see the long haul fleet and their crews scattered to the regions and tomorrows program damaged even more as the crews that were down to operate them are in Glasgow, which oddly enough is where you wanted to be! Result? You have 350+ long haul passenegers not going anywherethe next day. Now multiply that by the number of long haul inbounds taking into account domestic outbounds and passengers carried.
NOW can we have a third runway?
The same capacity constraint is NOT applicable at CDG / FRA / AMS. They have what is known as "room to breath".
A) Land the inbound Hong Kong that has been holding at Lambourne for 45 mins
B ) Divert the above flight with 350+ pax
You choose to land the above but to free a slot you need to consolidate as many of the domestic shuttles together to free up space in the sequence as ATC are under pressure
Result? 350 long haul passengers get into the right airport and your domestic passengers get home late.
Or there's option 2 which is try and run the normal schedule which would see the long haul fleet and their crews scattered to the regions and tomorrows program damaged even more as the crews that were down to operate them are in Glasgow, which oddly enough is where you wanted to be! Result? You have 350+ long haul passenegers not going anywherethe next day. Now multiply that by the number of long haul inbounds taking into account domestic outbounds and passengers carried.
NOW can we have a third runway?
The same capacity constraint is NOT applicable at CDG / FRA / AMS. They have what is known as "room to breath".
Join Date: May 2005
Location: CEG
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MANflyer...i'm struggling to see where the spokesperson got the comment wrong??
"with the exception of Antigua, that is a once-a-week additional leg on from Barbados."
It would be nice if they could actually get the facts right about routes that operate from the airport for which they are the spokesman...
Granted it's not the best sentence ever but it covers the fact that there is still a direct route to BGI from where you can fly on to ANU......not to mention 1 stop connections via the USA.....
"with the exception of Antigua, that is a once-a-week additional leg on from Barbados."
It would be nice if they could actually get the facts right about routes that operate from the airport for which they are the spokesman...
Granted it's not the best sentence ever but it covers the fact that there is still a direct route to BGI from where you can fly on to ANU......not to mention 1 stop connections via the USA.....