Chaos at Terminal 5
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If I was flying on Apr 1 from Heathrow I would give T5 a wide berth and use another Carrier. I share the same thoughts about MBA drones slotting in at the top of management. The global credit crisis is a direct result of CEO's not understanding their own products. There is no substitute for a graduate being recruited in his/her early 20s and working through the myriad of departments in a corporation and finishing up in charge. Corporate America binned this culture in the 80s and look where they are now. Asian and Indian Companies have taken over the baton and are much more successful as a result. For a fine example of modern management double-speak check out the following, searching desperately for any evidence of common sense on offer from this disaster;
"Further down the BAA management food chain there was similar enthusiasm. Veronica Kumar, the 29-year-old impressively named 'head of people and change' at T5, purred that the move offered a 'nirvana' of sorts. 'Our policy has been to create a context for change, then to apply changes within that context.
If few people outside the world of human resources knew what Kumar was on about, they were clearer about her ultimate goal. 'We want to give fliers an experience they'll remember,' she said.
Last Thursday Kumar achieved her aim, although not for the reasons BA and BAA would have wished. As the queues stretched, IT systems crashed, baggage went missing, scuffles broke out and children screamed, it was clear the launch of T5 had been an unmitigated disaster - rivalled in recent times only by the opening night of the Dome, when hundreds of VIPs, including most national newspaper editors, were forced to queue in the cold on the last night of the millennium.
Inside the terminal, there were scenes of chaos. Along with angry passengers, staff were becoming increasingly demoralised. Security staff coming to their desks in arrivals were alarmed to find large orange signs warning them: 'Danger, Live Cables.' It turned out the cables were no longer live, but no one had remembered to remove the signs. As the day wore on, drinking water was shipped in for the overstretched baggage teams, but the security staff refused to allow the bottles in.
"Further down the BAA management food chain there was similar enthusiasm. Veronica Kumar, the 29-year-old impressively named 'head of people and change' at T5, purred that the move offered a 'nirvana' of sorts. 'Our policy has been to create a context for change, then to apply changes within that context.
If few people outside the world of human resources knew what Kumar was on about, they were clearer about her ultimate goal. 'We want to give fliers an experience they'll remember,' she said.
Last Thursday Kumar achieved her aim, although not for the reasons BA and BAA would have wished. As the queues stretched, IT systems crashed, baggage went missing, scuffles broke out and children screamed, it was clear the launch of T5 had been an unmitigated disaster - rivalled in recent times only by the opening night of the Dome, when hundreds of VIPs, including most national newspaper editors, were forced to queue in the cold on the last night of the millennium.
Inside the terminal, there were scenes of chaos. Along with angry passengers, staff were becoming increasingly demoralised. Security staff coming to their desks in arrivals were alarmed to find large orange signs warning them: 'Danger, Live Cables.' It turned out the cables were no longer live, but no one had remembered to remove the signs. As the day wore on, drinking water was shipped in for the overstretched baggage teams, but the security staff refused to allow the bottles in.
Last edited by nigegilb; 30th Mar 2008 at 08:51.
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Priorities?
Perhaps this investment would have been better spent on training at T5?
http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtm...068&highlight=
http://www.bashares.com/phoenix.zhtm...068&highlight=
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Webb sight says all Longhaul normal today (sunday)
Webb sight also shows 4 Longhauls canx today, IAD,SEA,IAD,JFK.
I guess some of these passengers will be on the TV tonight telling their story.
Main complaint never goes away, Lack of Information and Lack of people to help the poor passenger.
Webb sight also shows 4 Longhauls canx today, IAD,SEA,IAD,JFK.
I guess some of these passengers will be on the TV tonight telling their story.
Main complaint never goes away, Lack of Information and Lack of people to help the poor passenger.
News media banned from T5
Having observed Heathrow Police stop, question and review pictures from a young womans palmcorder in T1 last year, one wonders how the establishment will handle the "threat" of journos with mobile phone cams in T5?
As I understand it BAA can stop you filming but have no right to confiscate footage in the terminal (unless they get the police to use one of the Anti Terrorism laws)
However BAA could sue if that footage subequently appears without their permission.
Use of hidden cams is covered by Broadcasting rules and shouldn't be undertaken unless it is in the public interest. One can argue that a mobile phone is a hidden cam!
Perhaps a court would conclude that filming piles of delayed bags or shoddy operations inside T5 is in the public interest but filming a securty checkpoint is not.
Mickjoebill
As I understand it BAA can stop you filming but have no right to confiscate footage in the terminal (unless they get the police to use one of the Anti Terrorism laws)
However BAA could sue if that footage subequently appears without their permission.
Use of hidden cams is covered by Broadcasting rules and shouldn't be undertaken unless it is in the public interest. One can argue that a mobile phone is a hidden cam!
Perhaps a court would conclude that filming piles of delayed bags or shoddy operations inside T5 is in the public interest but filming a securty checkpoint is not.
Mickjoebill
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Walnut
There is enough stand capacity at T5 ( at the moment) which is why BA only moved the T1 and some of the T4 operation. Switch 2 is on the 26th april when everything will be going out of T5. By then there will be more stand capacity available as new stands will be available..
So its nothing to do with insufficient stands.
There is enough stand capacity at T5 ( at the moment) which is why BA only moved the T1 and some of the T4 operation. Switch 2 is on the 26th april when everything will be going out of T5. By then there will be more stand capacity available as new stands will be available..
So its nothing to do with insufficient stands.
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If you are familiar with the UK TV show, 'The Apprentice' you will see a collection of candidates who have evidently been chosen for their 'management skills'. This arrogant, ill-mannered, shallow and unwholesome collection of people are those who will, sadly, achieve success in the modern business environment.
They are the bosses and board members of BA and BAA and many other British companies in a few years from now.
The BBC had a sketch on Radio 4 this morning using a voice-alike? for Alan Sugar telling Willie Walsh how he had got on with his task. He queried the man's competence in customer service, amongst other transgressions.
It finished with the ineveitable, 'You're fired!'
They are the bosses and board members of BA and BAA and many other British companies in a few years from now.
The BBC had a sketch on Radio 4 this morning using a voice-alike? for Alan Sugar telling Willie Walsh how he had got on with his task. He queried the man's competence in customer service, amongst other transgressions.
It finished with the ineveitable, 'You're fired!'
Media banned from T5
Have to smile at some results of automatic placement of web ads.
For reference original page here http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...311137,00.html but it has changed, so here is a screen grab....
Copyright © 2008 BSkyB
Mickjoebill
For reference original page here http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/...311137,00.html but it has changed, so here is a screen grab....
Copyright © 2008 BSkyB
Mickjoebill
Last edited by mickjoebill; 30th Mar 2008 at 10:51.
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How wrong can you be
BUS429 suggests deluded optimism as the cause, reference Times article. You are very far from the truth, it is far more simple than anything that complicated. A pure a simple case of incompetence... nothing more nothing less. It's written on the tin, WYSIWYG with BA
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Baggage illusion
Hartington - are you Paul Josef Goebbels? As he was experiance in the art of denial. Look for yourself, witness the power of truth, it is all revealing.
BBC BAGGAGE VIDEO
The sight of all those bags brings my mind back to when I visited Auschwitz, piles of bags that told their own story of a repressive regime, with single minded arrogance in pursuit of their own agenda.
Those piles of bags at T5 will equally haunt those responsible.......
Do not deny the holocaust, do not deny that there are somewhere in excess of 15,000 bags languishing at heathrow as we speak. Indeed Hartington they are actually BA figures, the media believe if you add another 25% to BA figures (as they have been known to under report problems) you may have a real idea of how many bags are apart from their rightful owners.
WW and team for
sake have some dignity and resign. We'll forget the little party you all had at Waterworld while the sh1t hit the fan, Lets call that your leaving bash....
Goodbye, bon voyage.
BBC BAGGAGE VIDEO
The sight of all those bags brings my mind back to when I visited Auschwitz, piles of bags that told their own story of a repressive regime, with single minded arrogance in pursuit of their own agenda.
Those piles of bags at T5 will equally haunt those responsible.......
Do not deny the holocaust, do not deny that there are somewhere in excess of 15,000 bags languishing at heathrow as we speak. Indeed Hartington they are actually BA figures, the media believe if you add another 25% to BA figures (as they have been known to under report problems) you may have a real idea of how many bags are apart from their rightful owners.
WW and team for
sake have some dignity and resign. We'll forget the little party you all had at Waterworld while the sh1t hit the fan, Lets call that your leaving bash....Goodbye, bon voyage.
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BAEngineering: no-one can deny your dedication to your self-appointed task of complete denigration of BA. I work for BA as well and I share the embarrassment caused by the inadequacy of our management.
But I think your reference to the holocaust has gone just a tad too far! Why not take a break for the day and go out for a good walk in the fresh air? Who knows, when you come back,
a) you might have a sense of perspective
and
b) there might be something new to comment on!
But I think your reference to the holocaust has gone just a tad too far! Why not take a break for the day and go out for a good walk in the fresh air? Who knows, when you come back,
a) you might have a sense of perspective
and
b) there might be something new to comment on!
Is it not true that last summer BA had mountains of peoples baggage,that they shipped them by containers to Europe to be sorted ? So, we should not be too surprised that BA struggle to carry pax & bags on the same flight.
Is it also not true that BA are the world leader in "ghost flights", where longhaul aircraft operate, but without pax? What happened to those halcyon days of BOAC ?
Since BA dumped on the regions, most of us north of Watford rely on KLM, Lufty, Emirates etc to get us where we want to go. You're welcome to BA / T5 - its all yours.
Is it also not true that BA are the world leader in "ghost flights", where longhaul aircraft operate, but without pax? What happened to those halcyon days of BOAC ?
Since BA dumped on the regions, most of us north of Watford rely on KLM, Lufty, Emirates etc to get us where we want to go. You're welcome to BA / T5 - its all yours.
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BA Internal Rivalry
Hometown wrote: "Read this on another forum , haven't had it confirmed as yet but good to see the inter terminal rivalry is as strong as ever"
Glad to hear that things do not change in BA. I remeber when I worked For BA when it was formed in the early 70's That there was not only rivalry between the Overseas division (Old BOAC) and the European division ( BEA), If you wanted to call overseas division in T3 from European division in T1 you had to call via an outside line!
I am not a fan of BA ( I left in 1974 to go to BCAL) But although WW and his bunch of Mismangers are responsible for a lot of the cock-up in T5, There seems to be silence on the part that the Mañana crowd at BAA has had to play. You can not really lay broken toilets and lifts and car parking problems at the feet of BA. IT is the responsibilty of BAA - most probably cheap second had spanish crap installations to save a few pennies
Glad to hear that things do not change in BA. I remeber when I worked For BA when it was formed in the early 70's That there was not only rivalry between the Overseas division (Old BOAC) and the European division ( BEA), If you wanted to call overseas division in T3 from European division in T1 you had to call via an outside line!
I am not a fan of BA ( I left in 1974 to go to BCAL) But although WW and his bunch of Mismangers are responsible for a lot of the cock-up in T5, There seems to be silence on the part that the Mañana crowd at BAA has had to play. You can not really lay broken toilets and lifts and car parking problems at the feet of BA. IT is the responsibilty of BAA - most probably cheap second had spanish crap installations to save a few pennies
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mickjoebill wrote:
Once the bag was stacked with others in the container, unless Sky were VERY lucky there'd no longer be a shot available when it was loaded on the plane--there's every chance the lens would be pressed up against the next suitcase and, once closed, the inside of the container would be dark.
If that wasn't a staged demo though, there are sure precious few other suitcases in the system.
Bob
What *is* curious is why they didnt show the bag being loaded on the aircraft. This would have added a few minutes to the journey and further underpinned their assertion that it takes an age for bags to get from checkin to hold.
If that wasn't a staged demo though, there are sure precious few other suitcases in the system.
Bob
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I was wondering how their suitcase camera complied with the "please turn off all electronic devices" directive for takeoff - active electronics in the hold, whatever next?
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Lest we forget
Dear Overstress,
I accept that you may feel the holocaust reference a tad too far, my reference merely stated for the visualisation associated with piles of suitcases. That each has a very graphic tale of it's own to tell. This as an aid to Hartington who seems to suggest that the media are overhyping the matter. That there were not 15,000 bags in a pile at LHR struck me as being very similiar to the Nazi propaganda that also used denial as a diffusing method to divert attention away from the real depth of that despicable situation.
I of course am not suggesting the T5 situation is on any level comparable to what happened in concentration camps during the holocaust. I will however reiterate and believe IMHO that both situations do draw parallels.
Repression against humanity can occur in many guises, the misery that the current regime at BA, which I sure you will concur, has brought upon its staff is just one such example. It is widely reported that 'morale' is low at BA, it has been for sometime. With our Pilots about to strike and cabin crew too, what the heck is going on.
No I won't retract or relax, as maybe unlike you I feel passionate about BA, it is tragic and will have considerable and significant impact on the lives of some 50,000 + staff if things continue as they are.
Now I'm off out to do some work, (no time for a walk) they (BA) might have banned PPRUNE from within BA computer systems, but they can't stop us bringing in our own PDA's. Wow the wonder of modern 3g technology, unrestricted and uncensored media anytime you like. Oh that reminds me, another similarity with the BA propaganda/media team has with the Nazi regime. They believe they can restrict the truth with censorship. I've held back on that subject till now, what on earth do they think they are doing banning the BBC and Sky from the terminals!!!!! What complete amateurs....... Fascist bunch.
One last thing, I don't (correct me if I’m wrong) believe I have denigrated BA; I have been vocal about the competence of our leadership team. Anyway, even if I did, I certainly wouldn't be alone on this or any other forum I have taken the time to visit. Certainly if you remember the staff survey's conducted by MORI at BA over the last few years. I can recall our management castigating us over the results; one in particular sticks in my mind.
A majority of BA staff (60%) were likely to give a negative response when questioned whether they though BA was a good airline. Speaks volumes really Overstress, I think it might be you that is out of kilt with the reality of the situation. So take a printout of my comments, go for a long walk and mull them over, you know I speak the truth.
Love and peace to all
I accept that you may feel the holocaust reference a tad too far, my reference merely stated for the visualisation associated with piles of suitcases. That each has a very graphic tale of it's own to tell. This as an aid to Hartington who seems to suggest that the media are overhyping the matter. That there were not 15,000 bags in a pile at LHR struck me as being very similiar to the Nazi propaganda that also used denial as a diffusing method to divert attention away from the real depth of that despicable situation.
I of course am not suggesting the T5 situation is on any level comparable to what happened in concentration camps during the holocaust. I will however reiterate and believe IMHO that both situations do draw parallels.
Repression against humanity can occur in many guises, the misery that the current regime at BA, which I sure you will concur, has brought upon its staff is just one such example. It is widely reported that 'morale' is low at BA, it has been for sometime. With our Pilots about to strike and cabin crew too, what the heck is going on.
No I won't retract or relax, as maybe unlike you I feel passionate about BA, it is tragic and will have considerable and significant impact on the lives of some 50,000 + staff if things continue as they are.
Now I'm off out to do some work, (no time for a walk) they (BA) might have banned PPRUNE from within BA computer systems, but they can't stop us bringing in our own PDA's. Wow the wonder of modern 3g technology, unrestricted and uncensored media anytime you like. Oh that reminds me, another similarity with the BA propaganda/media team has with the Nazi regime. They believe they can restrict the truth with censorship. I've held back on that subject till now, what on earth do they think they are doing banning the BBC and Sky from the terminals!!!!! What complete amateurs....... Fascist bunch.
One last thing, I don't (correct me if I’m wrong) believe I have denigrated BA; I have been vocal about the competence of our leadership team. Anyway, even if I did, I certainly wouldn't be alone on this or any other forum I have taken the time to visit. Certainly if you remember the staff survey's conducted by MORI at BA over the last few years. I can recall our management castigating us over the results; one in particular sticks in my mind.
A majority of BA staff (60%) were likely to give a negative response when questioned whether they though BA was a good airline. Speaks volumes really Overstress, I think it might be you that is out of kilt with the reality of the situation. So take a printout of my comments, go for a long walk and mull them over, you know I speak the truth.
Love and peace to all
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At least one poster has argued that poor senior management at BA is nothing new. I agree. Consider at the following:
The alliance with United
The alliance with US Air
Go
Four Corners
TAT/Air Liberte
DBA
I could go on.
P.S. For anyone emphasising the Ferrovial angle, remember that the problems with BAA pre-date the change in ownership. Terminal 4 at Barajas shows what a showcase new terminal should be like (operated by AENA, of course).
The alliance with United
The alliance with US Air
Go
Four Corners
TAT/Air Liberte
DBA
I could go on.
P.S. For anyone emphasising the Ferrovial angle, remember that the problems with BAA pre-date the change in ownership. Terminal 4 at Barajas shows what a showcase new terminal should be like (operated by AENA, of course).
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Most of reasons why T5 went wrong...
The T5 problems were caused 90% by HAL/BAA, not BA, but BA should have checked.
Don't know if the facts below have been circulated yet 'cos the other thread is too long. I have friends everywhere at LHR:
1. At the last minute HAL/BAA changed the car parking arrangement for staff but didn't communicate it to anyone other than publishing a new timetable for N5/N1: N2 was now only for contractors so as there were very few contractors left it was 90% empty on 27th. N1 buses only ran from 0630 to 1330 so no use to majority of staff who are shift workers. Observant staff [not management] tried to use N5, which filled up well before 0700, no-one could park, gridlock occurred, staff queuing in cars got upset, police had to be called as a riot nearly took place, staff ordered to park in N1. Extra buses laid for N1 turned up only to discover that their "electronics" would not let them into N1, so buses got gridlocked in entrance to N1. Queue of buses couldn’t reverse because the staff cars waiting to get in were now gridlocked trying to get into N1. Result? 80% of staff for T5 were over 2 hours late into T5.
2. HAL staff security entrance is inadequate even when things are running smoothly. So you can imagine what happened when all these late staff turned up at within a short time frame. With respect to the bigger picture HAL have misanalyses the staff numbers per unit time at the busy periods during shift start times so delays to staff arriving on-post continue for ever because it was built wrong. No more space to neither put any more staff entrances nor expand what’s already there.
3. HAL had not processed most of the requests for the BA staff that needed to logon to the check-in system in T5. But BA should have checked.
4. Because of BA’s staff “thinning” in the last 10 years, baggage handlers and check-in could not be spared in large enough numbers to stay current on the new training and equipment for T5. So they either forgot or are so rusty that they can’t do their job in T5. Furthermore there were no “experts” on the tarmac to help direct or assist staff and that’s why the baggage problems persist. BA currently operates a combination of “just-in-time”, “downsizing”, “lean-and-thin” management philosophies. Unfortunately the rest of the world got rid of these flawed US techniques of 10 years ago.
5. The entire T5 “system” worked up to a point; it was never stressed tested to maximum capacity for hours because HAL thought they would “creep” up to that point over time as currently T5A is not supposed to be full. Unfortunately for HAL the staff arrival delays into T5 causing the baggage backlog on the first morning took HAL to this point within a few hours.
6. Above point about T5A: anyone notice that there appears to be a sample of destinations in T5? Some short/medium/long haul. Deliberate cautious planning or customers being used as live system testers, allegedly. Strange how this wasn’t the “big bang” that T4 was…
7. Why no criticism of HAL by BA? Because BA were suppose to have thoroughly test T5 months ago…
8. It is still a mystery why the “Fast” bag drops don’t work.
In conclusion, 90% of all the problems are caused by HAL. But BA 10% fault didn’t excuse them from checking HAL.
Don't know if the facts below have been circulated yet 'cos the other thread is too long. I have friends everywhere at LHR:
1. At the last minute HAL/BAA changed the car parking arrangement for staff but didn't communicate it to anyone other than publishing a new timetable for N5/N1: N2 was now only for contractors so as there were very few contractors left it was 90% empty on 27th. N1 buses only ran from 0630 to 1330 so no use to majority of staff who are shift workers. Observant staff [not management] tried to use N5, which filled up well before 0700, no-one could park, gridlock occurred, staff queuing in cars got upset, police had to be called as a riot nearly took place, staff ordered to park in N1. Extra buses laid for N1 turned up only to discover that their "electronics" would not let them into N1, so buses got gridlocked in entrance to N1. Queue of buses couldn’t reverse because the staff cars waiting to get in were now gridlocked trying to get into N1. Result? 80% of staff for T5 were over 2 hours late into T5.
2. HAL staff security entrance is inadequate even when things are running smoothly. So you can imagine what happened when all these late staff turned up at within a short time frame. With respect to the bigger picture HAL have misanalyses the staff numbers per unit time at the busy periods during shift start times so delays to staff arriving on-post continue for ever because it was built wrong. No more space to neither put any more staff entrances nor expand what’s already there.
3. HAL had not processed most of the requests for the BA staff that needed to logon to the check-in system in T5. But BA should have checked.
4. Because of BA’s staff “thinning” in the last 10 years, baggage handlers and check-in could not be spared in large enough numbers to stay current on the new training and equipment for T5. So they either forgot or are so rusty that they can’t do their job in T5. Furthermore there were no “experts” on the tarmac to help direct or assist staff and that’s why the baggage problems persist. BA currently operates a combination of “just-in-time”, “downsizing”, “lean-and-thin” management philosophies. Unfortunately the rest of the world got rid of these flawed US techniques of 10 years ago.
5. The entire T5 “system” worked up to a point; it was never stressed tested to maximum capacity for hours because HAL thought they would “creep” up to that point over time as currently T5A is not supposed to be full. Unfortunately for HAL the staff arrival delays into T5 causing the baggage backlog on the first morning took HAL to this point within a few hours.
6. Above point about T5A: anyone notice that there appears to be a sample of destinations in T5? Some short/medium/long haul. Deliberate cautious planning or customers being used as live system testers, allegedly. Strange how this wasn’t the “big bang” that T4 was…
7. Why no criticism of HAL by BA? Because BA were suppose to have thoroughly test T5 months ago…
8. It is still a mystery why the “Fast” bag drops don’t work.
In conclusion, 90% of all the problems are caused by HAL. But BA 10% fault didn’t excuse them from checking HAL.
Once the bag was stacked with others in the container, unless Sky were VERY lucky there'd no longer be a shot available when it was loaded on the plane--there's every chance the lens would be pressed up against the next suitcase and, once closed, the inside of the container would be dark.
Assuming Sky only had funds to splash out on a short haul flight I assumed the bag would have been hand loaded onto the aircraft, thus providing a nice exterior shot as it traveled up the conveyor?
Yes, its not quite clear if it was a test day although the passenegrs in the que have a lot of luggage and look the part....
No mention was made of the date the bag took its trip which is strange.
Mickjoebill