BMI
Does anyone notice a similarity between Lufthansa's turning BMI into their own feeder, and what KLM did a decade ago with Air UK ? In fact it must be good for LH in the general scheme of Star Alliance revenue attribution. GLA-LHR-SIN or GLA-LHR-JNB hands most of the revenue across to another carrier. GLA-FRA-SIN, or GLA-FRA-JNB keeps the whole lot within the Lufthansa group overall figures.
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I can certainly see the similarities to that case and LH is right in going this path as there really is no use in BD being a predominantly shorthaul feeder for LHR, when the LH group can also divert most of the UK regional feed to other hubs of theirs, which is BTW why I'd question the remark from BD's CEO that what they are doing now is only plan B, as it seems nothing but obvious it should always have been plan A from a financial point of view!
I also see a difference to Air UK however: BD will remain a brand of its own with a medium haul network from LHR, operating point-to-point routes from London's main airport to places it can actually make good money from, contrary to using its highly valuable slots at LHR wastefully just to please STAR partners serving LHR by offering regional destinations in the UK...
I think LH is on the good path here, and unless BD's domestic routes are turning a profit, they should all be axed: the planes, slots and staff can better be used to operate from LHR (and other places) directly to key business centres in the EU and the periferal countries, while the connecting traffic from the regions can then all be routed through FRA, DUS, or BRU.
I also see a difference to Air UK however: BD will remain a brand of its own with a medium haul network from LHR, operating point-to-point routes from London's main airport to places it can actually make good money from, contrary to using its highly valuable slots at LHR wastefully just to please STAR partners serving LHR by offering regional destinations in the UK...
I think LH is on the good path here, and unless BD's domestic routes are turning a profit, they should all be axed: the planes, slots and staff can better be used to operate from LHR (and other places) directly to key business centres in the EU and the periferal countries, while the connecting traffic from the regions can then all be routed through FRA, DUS, or BRU.
Last edited by SN146; 1st Feb 2011 at 13:21.
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Does anyone notice a similarity between Lufthansa's turning BMI into their own feeder, and what KLM did a decade ago with Air UK ? In fact it must be good for LH in the general scheme of Star Alliance revenue attribution. GLA-LHR-SIN or GLA-LHR-JNB hands most of the revenue across to another carrier. GLA-FRA-SIN, or GLA-FRA-JNB keeps the whole lot within the Lufthansa group overall figures.
In terms of LH, when you look at connectivity to LH group hubs from the UK, they only serve MAN, BHX, EDI and NCL (to DUS). Compared to KL to AMS in particular and AF to CDG, LH have pretty weak UK coverage. Even EK serve DXB from more UK regional airports than LH serve from FRA! As a result, if LH/BD want to pull connectin traffic into FRA they're going to have start a lot of new routes to the UK regions when the new runway at FRA opens.
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I guess markets such as HUY, MME, LPL or NWI, mabye even CWL, only justify a single hub link demand-wise. And that is covered by KLM. HUY had AF for a short time, MME had limited hub-feed by BD into LHR, but realistically, these airports are one network carrier airports.
Choices for Lufthansa are therefore limited. They will have to focus on developing BRS, ABZ, LBA and GLA (and maybe BFS/BHD once it looses the LHR link by BD). Lufthansa has already tried GLA and BRS unsuccessfully, and those two were probably more promising than ABZ and LBA.
The interesting question is whether they should go for FRA, MUC or DUS as the hub they could feed from there. While DUS has a much more limited connectivity, it has a lot of P2P traffic from British regional airports (lots of flights from MAN, BHX, NCL). MUC is the most convenient airport airport for connections, but from the UK, it is quite a bit out of the way for connections to Northern and Western Europe and the US.
Choices for Lufthansa are therefore limited. They will have to focus on developing BRS, ABZ, LBA and GLA (and maybe BFS/BHD once it looses the LHR link by BD). Lufthansa has already tried GLA and BRS unsuccessfully, and those two were probably more promising than ABZ and LBA.
The interesting question is whether they should go for FRA, MUC or DUS as the hub they could feed from there. While DUS has a much more limited connectivity, it has a lot of P2P traffic from British regional airports (lots of flights from MAN, BHX, NCL). MUC is the most convenient airport airport for connections, but from the UK, it is quite a bit out of the way for connections to Northern and Western Europe and the US.
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It's about 15 years since LH operated into GLA and even then it was once daily at most, so not great for connecting. The airline industry has changed massively since then so I don't think how that service fared really gives any indication as to how any new route to a LH hub would work out.
In terms of which hub to go for, I would've thought FRA is the one given the new capacity that will be available by the end of the year. MUC, whilst a very nice airport, is slightly out of the way and DUS does not have the connectivity - I believe as well that DUS is very restricted slot wise and maybe has some kind of tight curfew as well?
In terms of which hub to go for, I would've thought FRA is the one given the new capacity that will be available by the end of the year. MUC, whilst a very nice airport, is slightly out of the way and DUS does not have the connectivity - I believe as well that DUS is very restricted slot wise and maybe has some kind of tight curfew as well?
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DUS is slot restricted, yes (as is FRA). Lufthansa has built up a nice network there over the past three or so years and most Star Carrier serve the airport. There are, however, very limited long-haul connections - only EWR, MIA, ORD, YYZ and PEK. There are, however, rumours about additional long-haul destinations to be added. It really depends what potential Lufthansa sees at places like GLA - apparently not enough people originating from GLA made long-haul connections at LHR to make the route viable. But generally speaking, DUS seems to be a very unlikely choice (despite the fact that it is the only Lufthansa hub with a NCL route). I guess they will try all they can to accomodate flights at FRA and only if they are unable to, look at alternatives.
However, as far as FRA is concerned, don't be fooled by runway #4. It does not mean a 25% increase in departures as traffic flow apparently restricts the number of additional movements.
OTOH, there are also ZRH and - to a lesser extent - VIE as potential hubs. For Lufthansa, Zurich is as much their hometurf these days as Munich or Düsseldorf.
However, as far as FRA is concerned, don't be fooled by runway #4. It does not mean a 25% increase in departures as traffic flow apparently restricts the number of additional movements.
OTOH, there are also ZRH and - to a lesser extent - VIE as potential hubs. For Lufthansa, Zurich is as much their hometurf these days as Munich or Düsseldorf.
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Indeed, Morocco seems to be high on the priority list of LH, as SN has also decided to serve RAK and AGA as from next summer season for instance.
Lufthansa -Route Network
Apart from the weekly Brussels Airlines flight you mention, bmi will be the only Star connection to RAK, so there could be some connecting flows over LHR to RAK supplementing local traffic
Morocco routes
From memory, I think LCCs began flying from the UK to Marrakech in late 2005
easyflyer - does your information on the profitability of Marrakech for GB Airways predate this period, or does it include a substantial period during which GB Airways had to compete with LCCs on the Marrakech route ?
I don't have specific knowledge of the market between the UK and Morocco, but can see the potential for BMI to serve the business capital of Casablanca when Royal Air Maroc currently has a monopoly to London. I note in particular that the BMI website is offering a lead-in economy fare on the CMN route at a somewhat higher price than the RAK route, despite CMN being about 15 mins less time in the air
However, with soon to be 5 carriers (weekly frequencies in brackets), namely BMI (x3), BA (x3), Easyjet (x7), Ryanair (x6) and Royal Air Maroc (x5) serving the London - Marrakech market, or 6 if you also count Thomson (x3), I'm wondering whether there really is sufficient demand on this leisure route for all the airlines to make money. What will BMI's marketing proposition / unique selling point be on this route to ensure it gets enough bums on seats at profitable fares ?
easyflyer - does your information on the profitability of Marrakech for GB Airways predate this period, or does it include a substantial period during which GB Airways had to compete with LCCs on the Marrakech route ?
I don't have specific knowledge of the market between the UK and Morocco, but can see the potential for BMI to serve the business capital of Casablanca when Royal Air Maroc currently has a monopoly to London. I note in particular that the BMI website is offering a lead-in economy fare on the CMN route at a somewhat higher price than the RAK route, despite CMN being about 15 mins less time in the air
However, with soon to be 5 carriers (weekly frequencies in brackets), namely BMI (x3), BA (x3), Easyjet (x7), Ryanair (x6) and Royal Air Maroc (x5) serving the London - Marrakech market, or 6 if you also count Thomson (x3), I'm wondering whether there really is sufficient demand on this leisure route for all the airlines to make money. What will BMI's marketing proposition / unique selling point be on this route to ensure it gets enough bums on seats at profitable fares ?
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 2nd Feb 2011 at 01:23. Reason: Add weekly frequencies
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This isnt meant to upset or offend any members - I like bmi - have flown them several times between Manchester and Heathrow - Nice little airline
I understand people work there and are proud of their jobs
What were bmi (under their various different names) like in "their day"
What domestic routes did they serve...
What euro routes did they fly from Heathrow...
Were they as big as British Airways...
I`m aware of the Manchester A330 routes and the BMed acquistion and the recently acquistion off BD by Lufthansa
To me they seem like they dont know what they are doing from one day to the next...
I`ve copied this from another airline website... I think it sums up BD in a paragraph...
"Bergen will be daily, except days ending in a "y", via Newcastle on a Monday, Manchester on a Friday, and non-stop on all other days except if it's an afternoon departure. Operated by an A320 weekdays, and by Emb-145 on Saturdays. Full meal service on a Tuesday, refreshments only rest of the week, except on days operated by regional or on Sunday morning when there will be the once famous bacon roll. Tiny fares some days, mileage accrual only on full fares but not on aircraft with the old livery...... All subject to change at short notice.. "
Once again bmi is a great airline - I really hope Lufthansa turn you around and make you a great airline once again !!!!
I understand people work there and are proud of their jobs
What were bmi (under their various different names) like in "their day"
What domestic routes did they serve...
What euro routes did they fly from Heathrow...
Were they as big as British Airways...
I`m aware of the Manchester A330 routes and the BMed acquistion and the recently acquistion off BD by Lufthansa
To me they seem like they dont know what they are doing from one day to the next...
I`ve copied this from another airline website... I think it sums up BD in a paragraph...
"Bergen will be daily, except days ending in a "y", via Newcastle on a Monday, Manchester on a Friday, and non-stop on all other days except if it's an afternoon departure. Operated by an A320 weekdays, and by Emb-145 on Saturdays. Full meal service on a Tuesday, refreshments only rest of the week, except on days operated by regional or on Sunday morning when there will be the once famous bacon roll. Tiny fares some days, mileage accrual only on full fares but not on aircraft with the old livery...... All subject to change at short notice.. "
Once again bmi is a great airline - I really hope Lufthansa turn you around and make you a great airline once again !!!!
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Ib
About a year ago you would have been spot on, but there is much change afoot in the bmi group.
Only a year ago people had written them off, baby would be bust/closed/sold and so on, none of which came to pass.
GLA being culled is not a knee jerk in the mould of NT its about a restructuring of strategy and direction.
Bmi have no long haul however WPS is on record of stating that they will go back to the USA but from LHR and to the big apple not odd ball routes, but only when Market conditions permit currently slated for spring 2012 by which time bmi will be unrecognisable from the mis match product it became, by spring it will reek of quality with a quoted £30m having been spent on interior and exterior makeover, the new LH style seats look stunning.
This sort of spend was not possible under the previous management.
bmi problem with long haul from LHR is that west bound it's all Star traffic for which the get very little and have to pick up the costs every time the tosser's in baggage at LHR get it wrong! 7 of the last 10 flights have done thro LHR resulted in lost bags, they turned up eventually and were loaded inbound.
So until they have some west bound services interlining from the regions is of little value.
BTW has Random Flyer passed his hat yet?
Never say Never!
Only a year ago people had written them off, baby would be bust/closed/sold and so on, none of which came to pass.
GLA being culled is not a knee jerk in the mould of NT its about a restructuring of strategy and direction.
Bmi have no long haul however WPS is on record of stating that they will go back to the USA but from LHR and to the big apple not odd ball routes, but only when Market conditions permit currently slated for spring 2012 by which time bmi will be unrecognisable from the mis match product it became, by spring it will reek of quality with a quoted £30m having been spent on interior and exterior makeover, the new LH style seats look stunning.
This sort of spend was not possible under the previous management.
bmi problem with long haul from LHR is that west bound it's all Star traffic for which the get very little and have to pick up the costs every time the tosser's in baggage at LHR get it wrong! 7 of the last 10 flights have done thro LHR resulted in lost bags, they turned up eventually and were loaded inbound.
So until they have some west bound services interlining from the regions is of little value.
BTW has Random Flyer passed his hat yet?
Never say Never!
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I wonder if LH will spread some of their onboard offerings to BMI - and I mean every BMI and not random inclusions and exceptions that we've seen over the years.
I know it's not much, but a free beer, snack (small sandwich and a biscuit you get on LH) and a coffee makes people think they're getting better value. People seemed to like the whole Diamond service. Bit of a dated name, but why not bring it back? They've went back to "British Midland (international)" - so why not bring it back.
I've always seen them as a premium airline and flew them a lot MME-LHR-Onwards. But in the end, they were just an LCC who flew to LHR and nothing more.
I know it's not much, but a free beer, snack (small sandwich and a biscuit you get on LH) and a coffee makes people think they're getting better value. People seemed to like the whole Diamond service. Bit of a dated name, but why not bring it back? They've went back to "British Midland (international)" - so why not bring it back.
I've always seen them as a premium airline and flew them a lot MME-LHR-Onwards. But in the end, they were just an LCC who flew to LHR and nothing more.
Davidjohnson, AFAIK LHR-RAK and LHR-CMN-RAK were GB's most profitable route right up to the end, probably because they served LHR. I'm sure the LCC's diluted the market but it was all relative in terms of it being GB's most profitable in that most of it's other routes were all in competition with LCC's anyway.
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I know it's not much, but a free beer, snack (small sandwich and a biscuit you get on LH) and a coffee makes people think they're getting better value. People seemed to like the whole Diamond service. Bit of a dated name, but why not bring it back? They've went back to "British Midland (international)" - so why not bring it back.
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coffee to go...
the business lounges will soon have " coffee to go cups " .... so any one using the lounges can make a coffee, tea or something else and take it onboard with them. will be good for anyone travelling economy. no need to buy!!!
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If they can afford free coffee, then for the love of God have the cabin crew give it out when the customer is sat down and rested, not running to the gate with boiling water because you were last in the queue (!)
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the business lounges will soon have " coffee to go cups "
will be good for anyone travelling economy. no need to buy!!!
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Originally Posted by sn146
It really doesn't matter much to pax if their route is GLA-LHR-MXP or GLA-BRU/FRA-MXP, just to name one exemple....