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British Airways to buy 12 A380s

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British Airways to buy 12 A380s

Old 29th Sep 2007, 23:30
  #81 (permalink)  
 
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The roller-coaster cabin effect is also quite visible if you are sitting near the rear of a 747-400 in turbulence - although I suspect it must be still more evident on a A340-600.
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 00:06
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The 380 will be a slow burner but I have no doubt (assuming that there is enough oil around to fly the thing) that in 10-15 years it will be the standard high density long haul aircraft in the same way the -400 is now. Boeing have handed that market segment to Airbus for the next 25+ years. Will Airbus make any money out of it?, yes, but it will be a long time coming.
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 00:19
  #83 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MrBernoulli
I have personally spoken to Virgin passengers who are not amused to sit in those stretched A340 cigar tubes and watch them bend noticeably in turbulence. At least one couple have said they will use 777s where they can.
Indeed, I am not thrilled by A346 either but the 744 is going to be phased out and there may not be many 748s around. But - the numbers of us that have a preference and check the a/c type that is normally scheduled on a particular rotation before booking...? I reckon there ain't many.

One example, friends of mine have the money to travel WT+(BA) or PE(VS) they have tried both and resolutely stick to the cheapest fares, even if it means a lay-over and plane change on some long haul.

Now, it is possible that some folks will take against the A380 (too big) but then, so did many about the B741. Overall, I agree with Max Angel that it a/c will gain a firm corner of the long haul market. I doubt that it will be as ubiquitous as the 744 but that is more due to a changing world. During the time ahead, Boeing will have more than enough a/c orders to keep them profitable.
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 00:28
  #84 (permalink)  
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" Regarding Heathrow hangars - I thought the whole point of T5 was that it would be big enough to accomodate A380s? Surely it's a shortsight on BA's part if they have to modify all their hangars now?! "
There aren't any hangars in T5.
What matters is that T5 has some stands that will accomadate A380s and it DOES.
 
Old 30th Sep 2007, 00:40
  #85 (permalink)  
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" assuming T5 is the only parking for the 380 "
Terminal 3 was equipped for the A380 back in 2006 (Pier 6 - 4 stands).
 
Old 30th Sep 2007, 10:49
  #86 (permalink)  
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No doubt that the A380 has a corner of the market, just too small a corner to make it profitable is the point I am making, the market has been wrongly assessed by Airbus, the A380 is not the major, three class, long haul replacement, as was planned. It will always be a popular mass transit carrier by the low cost and charter market, should they be able to afford it and departure times can be dictated by the operator, but in the major front end market it has no appeal at all if it cuts down the customer's, (the passenger's), options by reducing the number of daily flights from A to B.

Airbus are already in a very precarious finacial position and possibly the banks let them continue on the basis of their short haul orders?
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 10:49
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Wink l

The 380 should be good from about 2015 I would guess, they will have to put it right due to the numbers about, the 340-5/600 is not getting the attention it needs due to small numbers about, see link below.
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http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ong-hello.html
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I would like to see this review up-dated.
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 12:10
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parabellum,

I have not checked the published accounts for Airbus in detail for a few months, last time I looked Airbus had over 6 billion euros cash in the bank. If you call that a "very precarious financial position", I would love to see your bank account.

The biggest financial headache for Airbus at the moment is the low value of the USD, it is also a headache for Boeing as it sources a lot of parts and engines in non USD.

This order of 12xA380s from BA is worth over US$3 billion to Airbus AFTER discounts, if they exercise the options, that will be another 1-2 billion.
The A380 is not designed to reduce frequencies, it is designed to allow for growth on existing frequencies/routes, I have given you the growth figures in my previous post.

Your reading of the A380 market is wrong, not one low cost, charter, or 3rd world airline has ordered them (unlike the 787). Airlines that place high value on service and front end yields are ordering A380s, and more orders will come once the aircraft is in service for a year or so.

As for no appeal to the front end market, someone recently paid over 1 million dollars for a front end seat on the first SQ flight from SIN-SYD later this month. But you should know all this, the airline you are working for is replacing 744s with A380s, maybe you think SQ is just a low cost/charter airline ?

Joetom,

That article is over 2 years old, a lot has changed, but is is not newsworthy as things have improved. Flight generally only reports new issues. I know where I work we generally have higher dispatch rates with the A340NG and A330 than the 777, but that is just one operators experience.
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 15:42
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Wonder what will happen to LGW if they want to expand Longhaul?
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Old 30th Sep 2007, 18:09
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Nice One False Capture

Great comment , almost escaped attention but you hit the nail on the head about the Great Greasy Ones penchant for 'ordering' every new aircraft to get his name on the front pages. I said to my mates 2 years ago - this 380 'order' was a publicity stunt . I cannot claim 'I told you so' status because many of us sceptics said the same thing at the time.
The whole 'Virgin/Branson wants to save Concorde' nonsense was seen by many of us as the greatest potential 'steal' in the publicity world as RBs real motive was to 'buy' one Concorde , fly it once , and the last one to fly would have had the Virgin Logo on it to be preserved forever and usurp BAs position /clout as the Concorde operator erased forever.
I look forward to VS's new 'profits' - I hear from various employees that it is dire on the turnover , that huge sums have been spent on certain Crawley buildings which only involve staff and not passengers , and that the BA board are about to have a 'good news' day for a change !
Vive le sport...........
Take care up there.........
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 01:03
  #91 (permalink)  
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Zeke - Just to clarify, I suggested the A380 would suit the LCC and Charter market best, I do realise that none have ordered it, my reading of the market is, I believe, pretty accurate, as current orders show.

Paying a million to charity for a one off ride hardly counts towards on going cash flow for an airline. SIA a Lcc/charter company? I don't think so, their ranking in passenger surveys and their balance sheet history prove that they are up there among the best.

Having Euros6.0bn in the bank is only one side of the accounts, what are their liabilities? Can't really see the relevance of my personal financial state to this discussion.

For the last time, I DO accept that there is a market for the A380, as orders from airlines have shown, but it is a market too small to make the A380 a commercially viable option for Airbus.

SIA have replaced many of their B744 with the B777 family and the long range A340 already, the A380 will operate in the niche market area that requires mass transit, Australia, UK, possibly some ports of call in the USA and replace a few remaining B744s, not a fleet of 52 aircraft.

Last edited by parabellum; 1st Oct 2007 at 01:34.
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 05:22
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Parabellum - Here at Emirates there's going to be a fleet of 55 380's..

Just remember, lower seat costs = reduced fares = more people flying. As a BA shareholder I think it's great news that BA's going the 380 way
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 10:43
  #93 (permalink)  
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I'll believe those 55 when I see them delivered as A380s.

Nothing to stop Emirates changing their order, cancelling their order or going into the leasing business and still the order book is only about half way to 500!.
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 10:57
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Parabellum,

Didn't Tim Clark or Maurice Flanagan recently say that they'd actually like to have 110 () Dugongs on order?

Also re EGLL T5 readiness - it's been mentioned that only 6 stands on pier 4 are 380-ready; one presumes that, with this order and the options, it might be prudent to slot a few more in.

Then again, if that decision is up to BAA...

As for no 'third world' operators ordering 380s - I guess it depends on what you define as the 'third world' these days, but under 'traditional' definitions of that term - wouldn't that include anything ordered by Chinese or indian carriers? Even those ordered by airlines based in certain Gulf emirates which are not diversified economies might be seen by some as 'third world' - but it appears these days, that's where the cash is.

Not many 747s were ever ordered off the line by charter carriers; they have been a popular pick-up in secondary trading, however. So it'll be interesting to see who picks up the first few 380s to go off lease. As SIA considers anything with a hull age over about 5-6 years to be ancient, one suspects there will be a few available well inside ten years.
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 13:43
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My tuppence worth; I actually think that the 747s days are over now that the 380 has raised the numbers/efficiency bar for ultra long haul.

The past few years have virtually proved that 2 engines are the future for long haul, certainly as far as the airlines are concerned. I believe that the 747 models no longer carry enough people to justify its four engines. The 777 and other airbus models fly just as far and carry only a few less passengers.

For the relevant (high-density) routes, the airlines will only now consider the 380, as the 747 is now no longer superior (in terms of numbers) enough to justify its engines and therefore cost.
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 13:50
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The aircraft is not even in operation yet, but already deemed commercially inviable by some. It would seem some 'read' the market as they wish it to be, rather than how it is.
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 15:09
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Any of you guys know what the plans are for the short-haul fleet? Are they replacing the 737s with airbus, NGs? Or nothing!

FMS
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 15:32
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When you sit in any of the Y class sections on an A380 the aircraft "feels" no different what so ever to a 747-400. In fact my impression is that the rear section (18) especially has an almost cinema going feel certainly on the SIA A/C. toilets in abundance too ! The Business and first class sections are however quite a bit superior to the aforementioned Boeing, from any airline I've seen.
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 18:17
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Set 18,

You have pretty much hit the nail on the head. 4 engines works only if you make a radical departure from old technology - that's why the 340-600 doesn't work. The world will be full of high tech, high efficiency twins with a smattering of super big 4's.
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Old 1st Oct 2007, 18:44
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The one thing that no-one has yet revealed is exactly how much they are paying for the aircraft, or what the terms of the deal, or any trade-in options are worth.
In this business where aircraft are bought "off-plan" often before they are even designed, it's more about the bean counters, than whether they are the ideal aircraft for their routes.
No-one would deliberately buy a complete lemon but it's often the case that the ideal aircraft is not the cheapest one on offer. Play the manufacturers off aginst each other or even against themselves by getting a quote for something they want to push and get the best deal that way.
I can't really see that many high density routes where the A380 would be ideal for BA. On the atlantic they want frequency of service, and on the Caribbean and most African routes they don't need the capacity. Other destinations such as the Indian routes problably couldn't handle an aircraft of that size at the moment. The only routes it might work is the Far East/Australia and Capetown/Jo'burg or Hong Kong.
Having said that if the price is right................
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