View Poll Results: Should BA order the B747-8i?
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British Airways to buy 12 A380s
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Slots used for an A380
BA states that one its reasons to select the A380 is to gain greater capacity at slot-limited airports such as LHR. It was my understanding that the A380 had wake turbulence issues, and that spacing distances behind it needed to be enlarged. This would suggest that the A380 might need to use 1.5 or 2 standard heavy slots per takeoff/landing.
Has this issue been resolved? Will the A380 require greater spacing? Or will it be able to trade slots on a one-for-one basis with a 744/777/340?
Has this issue been resolved? Will the A380 require greater spacing? Or will it be able to trade slots on a one-for-one basis with a 744/777/340?
There are now some (not sure how many) 380 compatable stands in T3, aren't there?
Surely SQ and QF (and EK?) will be along with theirs before BA's even enter the assembly building?
Surely SQ and QF (and EK?) will be along with theirs before BA's even enter the assembly building?
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4 A 380 stands at T3 are already there. BA has exclusive use of T5 and will continue to operate some flights through T3 as T5 is too small for them from the outset. No other operators will be able to move A 380s into T5.
Nobody should worry about the A 380 being too big for BA. They could profitably use half a dozen today. If anything , as above, the current model is too small and it doesn't come into its own until stretched.
As far as Terminal handling is concerned , it is no worse that the simultaneous arrival of a 747 and 737 and that's happening all over the world all the time, so no worries there either.
Nobody should worry about the A 380 being too big for BA. They could profitably use half a dozen today. If anything , as above, the current model is too small and it doesn't come into its own until stretched.
As far as Terminal handling is concerned , it is no worse that the simultaneous arrival of a 747 and 737 and that's happening all over the world all the time, so no worries there either.
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Staff travel
Who are you kidding.
It will probably mean more club & first class, so unless you are using a freebie with upgrade entitlement, you will probably still not get on.
It will probably mean more club & first class, so unless you are using a freebie with upgrade entitlement, you will probably still not get on.
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I thought the A350 was a better contender than the 787 too, with proven technology
787 is a leap ahead of the A350, which looks a bit yesterday by comparison.
I'm sure Lord Brabazon would agree with YOU though.
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Well said Rainboe
At last some common sense on the real impact of the 380 over its lifetime. I wish more people took the long term view.
2hr turnrounds????
Taildragger67
A bit optimistic that don't you think.
The majors struggle to turn a 777-300 round in 2hrs.
And when will they be getting the TLC they undoubtedly will need in the 2hr turn round. And from whom? http://http://www.pprune.org/forums/...d.php?t=282844
A bit optimistic that don't you think.
The majors struggle to turn a 777-300 round in 2hrs.
And when will they be getting the TLC they undoubtedly will need in the 2hr turn round. And from whom? http://http://www.pprune.org/forums/...d.php?t=282844
Not at LHR they don't. 
It's all very well throwing hundreds of low wage cleaners etc on board back in HKG, but at LHR?
I can't see BA paying for 45 cleaners to muck out a 380 even if they are min wage Eastern European students.
The IFE takes 2hrs to boot up.
It's all very well throwing hundreds of low wage cleaners etc on board back in HKG, but at LHR?
I can't see BA paying for 45 cleaners to muck out a 380 even if they are min wage Eastern European students.
The IFE takes 2hrs to boot up.
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Turin
Very good point and correct BA will like most Euro carriers not pay for that many more cleaners. Greatest source of compliant in the global pax monitoring is dirty aircraft interiors. It will never turnaround at LHR in under 4hours for the firrst 5 years by which yime BA will be only a name of part of another larger airline.
Very good point and correct BA will like most Euro carriers not pay for that many more cleaners. Greatest source of compliant in the global pax monitoring is dirty aircraft interiors. It will never turnaround at LHR in under 4hours for the firrst 5 years by which yime BA will be only a name of part of another larger airline.
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A380 Engineering/LHR.
Single-shift segmented checks only, exploiting schedule lull. See CX/QF/SA, LHR today. If new bays are to be erected around TBD they will displace Britannia/Comet bays, fit only for English Heritage. A380 tear-down from c.2020, will be far away. The impelling logic is in factories serving all OneWorld - "I do this, you do that". See ATLAS, DC-10, 1970. No carrier, not embedded in Heavy Engineering, would enter it for a small fleet. See Lord King and catering: "I want to eat bread in my cabin, but I don't need to bake it."
Please exorcise "cheap-labour": HKG/SIN are not low-labour-cost, LH/Beijing is not, and the rest of China soon won't be. But their Heavy Maintenance Visit-expense is lower than LHR/HAM/CDG, due to lower cost of land, energy, and their 24-hr. activity. BAA and nearby landlords do not want any of that noise and dirt, and charge, wounded-bull, for their land-asset. See the Hatton Cross caterer: now a warehouse, whose pickers don't picket. BAMC won 747 over more distant sites because BA extracted EU dole for ex-coalminers, while employing none. The fulcrum for all -8- types is the Orient, which is where they will be Heavied.
Please exorcise "cheap-labour": HKG/SIN are not low-labour-cost, LH/Beijing is not, and the rest of China soon won't be. But their Heavy Maintenance Visit-expense is lower than LHR/HAM/CDG, due to lower cost of land, energy, and their 24-hr. activity. BAA and nearby landlords do not want any of that noise and dirt, and charge, wounded-bull, for their land-asset. See the Hatton Cross caterer: now a warehouse, whose pickers don't picket. BAMC won 747 over more distant sites because BA extracted EU dole for ex-coalminers, while employing none. The fulcrum for all -8- types is the Orient, which is where they will be Heavied.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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"Frankly I am surprised at the shere short sightedness of the number here who have denigrated it and assumed there was no room for it in the future, and predicted failure".
Still dreaming then Rainboe? From a commercial standpoint the A380 is a dead duck, a dinosaur, but possibly a technical success.
As has all been said before, the A380 fills a niche market that the airlines won't deny. BA's recent order confirms this, 12 to 17 aircraft is not a fleet replacement, BA have operated in excess of 50 B744.
The B744 replacement is not the A380, it is the B777 family and to a lesser extent the A330 and A340-500 and A340 -600. In this respect it is fairly obvious that Airbus got it wrong. Assuming all major carriers order their niche market requirement, the A380 will still have a problem getting to 500 aircraft delivered, forget 1500. They still have a big problem to break even, it was once in the order of 270 aircraft but given late delivery and cost over-runs is now around the 500 figure.
Your surprise at so many of us having a pessimistic outlook for the A380 is only balanced by our disbelief at your apparently un-supported optimistic view for the future for the A380.
It is very unrealistic to compare the introduction of the B747 with the introduction of the A380. The B747 only had to compete with a few L1011, a few DC10 and some DC8 and B707 aircraft and even fewer, (sadly), VC10 aircraft, hardly comparable with today's aircraft market.
Commercially, the A380 is a dead duck.
Still dreaming then Rainboe? From a commercial standpoint the A380 is a dead duck, a dinosaur, but possibly a technical success.
As has all been said before, the A380 fills a niche market that the airlines won't deny. BA's recent order confirms this, 12 to 17 aircraft is not a fleet replacement, BA have operated in excess of 50 B744.
The B744 replacement is not the A380, it is the B777 family and to a lesser extent the A330 and A340-500 and A340 -600. In this respect it is fairly obvious that Airbus got it wrong. Assuming all major carriers order their niche market requirement, the A380 will still have a problem getting to 500 aircraft delivered, forget 1500. They still have a big problem to break even, it was once in the order of 270 aircraft but given late delivery and cost over-runs is now around the 500 figure.
Your surprise at so many of us having a pessimistic outlook for the A380 is only balanced by our disbelief at your apparently un-supported optimistic view for the future for the A380.
It is very unrealistic to compare the introduction of the B747 with the introduction of the A380. The B747 only had to compete with a few L1011, a few DC10 and some DC8 and B707 aircraft and even fewer, (sadly), VC10 aircraft, hardly comparable with today's aircraft market.
Commercially, the A380 is a dead duck.
Last edited by parabellum; 30th Sep 2007 at 11:02.
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OK I admit I was wrong on some of my posts elsewhere about BA going for the A380. Thanks to all for putting me right guys. Full credit to the team at BA for their work in getting the order approved and signed for. I was so sure that BA would buy the 747-800!
All I want to ask now is does this mean that VS will take their six aircraft on order?
I reckon now that BA have ordered the A380's other orders are sure to follow from airlines such as Cathay Pacific but what of the Japanese carriers?
All I want to ask now is does this mean that VS will take their six aircraft on order?
I reckon now that BA have ordered the A380's other orders are sure to follow from airlines such as Cathay Pacific but what of the Japanese carriers?
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parabellum,
People might take you seriously when you read what is being replaced with the latest order.
"British Airways has today placed an order for 12 Airbus A380 and 24 Boeing 787 aircraft with options for a further seven Airbus A380s and 18 Boeing 787s."
That order is to "replace 34 of the airline's longhaul fleet and will be delivered between 2010 and 2014. The order, including options, will give the airline the ability to grow its capacity by up to four per cent per year and the flexibility to tailor its future capacity growth in line with market conditions."
Still another 37 744s to replace by around 2019, plus traffic demand between Europe and North America is predicted to have an average annual growth rate of 3.8%, Europe to Latin America of 4.6%, Europe to Africa and Middle East of 5.4%, and Europe to Asia Pacific of 6%, i.e. even on their lowest growth market, they should expect to achieve about 40% increase in demand in the next 10 years.
The aircraft BA are examining include the 787, 773ER, 748i, A380, A350XWB. The A330, A340, 767, 772, 772ER, 772LR, and 773 are not being considered.
It could be said that further longhaul orders are looking at 300+ seat aircraft, which would rule out further 787-8 & 787-9 aircraft as the existing order and options cover the 757/767 fleet with some growth.
Slots, be they terminal parking, landing, takeoff, enroute, do not have an infinite quantity. Frequency is not all the answer, the front end yield (where airlines make money) from operating a flight departing 3am somewhere and getting to the destination at 4 pm is useless.
BA fleet replacement cycle based upon 20 years of service per airframe.
BA will be announcing more orders in the future to replace eurofleet and long hauls aircraft when required.
People might take you seriously when you read what is being replaced with the latest order.
"British Airways has today placed an order for 12 Airbus A380 and 24 Boeing 787 aircraft with options for a further seven Airbus A380s and 18 Boeing 787s."
That order is to "replace 34 of the airline's longhaul fleet and will be delivered between 2010 and 2014. The order, including options, will give the airline the ability to grow its capacity by up to four per cent per year and the flexibility to tailor its future capacity growth in line with market conditions."
Still another 37 744s to replace by around 2019, plus traffic demand between Europe and North America is predicted to have an average annual growth rate of 3.8%, Europe to Latin America of 4.6%, Europe to Africa and Middle East of 5.4%, and Europe to Asia Pacific of 6%, i.e. even on their lowest growth market, they should expect to achieve about 40% increase in demand in the next 10 years.
The aircraft BA are examining include the 787, 773ER, 748i, A380, A350XWB. The A330, A340, 767, 772, 772ER, 772LR, and 773 are not being considered.
It could be said that further longhaul orders are looking at 300+ seat aircraft, which would rule out further 787-8 & 787-9 aircraft as the existing order and options cover the 757/767 fleet with some growth.
Slots, be they terminal parking, landing, takeoff, enroute, do not have an infinite quantity. Frequency is not all the answer, the front end yield (where airlines make money) from operating a flight departing 3am somewhere and getting to the destination at 4 pm is useless.
BA fleet replacement cycle based upon 20 years of service per airframe.
BA will be announcing more orders in the future to replace eurofleet and long hauls aircraft when required.
Paxing All Over The World
Originally Posted by Dan Air 87
All I want to ask now is does this mean that VS will take their six aircraft on order?
There will be a tiny number of pax who will say:
"I'll never go on that great big thing"
or
"I can't wait to go on that great big thing"
The greatest majority have no idea what 'thing' they are on - but they know exactly what price they paid.
Now, if VS can run the a/c on the LHR~JNB route so as to increase the seats per week, then they will consider it. That is, if their license is about rotations rather than seats per day/week.
PAXboy,
I have personally spoken to Virgin passengers who are not amused to sit in those stretched A340 cigar tubes and watch them bend noticeably in turbulence. At least one couple have said they will use 777s where they can.
I have personally spoken to Virgin passengers who are not amused to sit in those stretched A340 cigar tubes and watch them bend noticeably in turbulence. At least one couple have said they will use 777s where they can.
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Bla bla bla
......Funny that, I've been unfortunate enough to sit in a 738 and see it do the same thing.....it certainly does make you think "did I just see that?"