MD80 plane crash in Phuket, Sep. 07
Well, I did say "a chance". But the inquiry does have international representatives from Boeing (and maybe the NTSB?). Orient Thai does fly international routes so regulators in other countries may take an interest in what comes to light during the investigation (not just in the final report).
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Orient Thai, an accident in the making
- I worked at Orient Thai for one year on the B747.
- I can not speak too much about the B757 or the MD operation. I believe the B757 section operated well because of western crews and the tight control of Xan. I left just after they got a couple of MDs. The MD operation started out to be good because most all of the MD crews were western.
- But in some respects, Orient Thai was like the French Foreign Legion; most everybody had a story or had a skeleton in the closet.
- On the B747 there were three camps, Indonesians, Filipinos and Westerners.
- I have worked for several non-scheduled airlines. Orient Thai is the only company that when we had a beer in a bar at night we would ponder when they were going to crash the first one.
- There was a Thai ‘Dragon Lady’ that ran Flight Operations as I left. I am not sure where the ‘Dragon Lady’ came from. I think maybe she started out as a secretary or something. She was at the airline from the beginning. All I knew was that she worked for Udom for a long time and Udom trusted her. She had the aspiration of operating the airline. She got her wish by finding a retired Thai DCA Inspector that she could manipulate to replace Graham Smith as the DO. Things went to **** when Graham was pushed out. While Graham was there there was progress being made to make Orient Thai into a respectable airline. One time, after Graham was gone, I overheard the ‘Dragon Lady’ tell a B757 crew member, “I am in charge now and you will do what I tell you to do”, when she wanted him to exceed a duty time limitation.
- I understand that the new Thai DO wanted to get rid of the western crews and replace them with Thais. I believe this was because the Asian crews said yes more easily when the company wanted them to break the rules.
- Envelopes of money waiting for guys at check in if their flight was scheduled to exceed duty times.
- Orient Thai had just gotten three Thai First Officers while I was there. They didn’t know the first thing about operating a large aircraft. They had come from the Thai Air Force where they flew fighters. I believe one of them had a claim-to-fame of crashing a Harrier and living through it.
- The new Thai DO’s idea of operating an airline was allowing the ‘new hire’ Thai First Officers to suck up to him on the golf course or over tea in his office.
- Many times I would catch a glimpse of the Thai DO in his office staring at the wall or sleeping-no papers or documents on his desk. If he wasn’t at the golf course in the afternoon he would go home at 5 or before. By contrast, sometimes I would arrive very early in the morning for a flight to see Graham busy at his desk. Other times I would see Graham there at 11pm.
- There was absolutely zero training; no initial or recurrent training.
- No CRM or CRM training.
- No Standards
- There were some Indonesian and Filipino captains thinking they were gods. It is the culture.
- While I was there it was western management on the B747. They were fought by the Filipinos and Indonesians when they tried to increase the standards on the B747 and to change it from a ‘good-ole-boy-flying-club’ to an airline. The Indonesians and Filipinos manipulated the Scheduler so that they could get all one nationality on a crew so they could operate the aircraft as if they were back at Philippine Air or at Garuda. They would even use manuals and checklist from their previous airline.
- The Captains who were responsible to verify the accuracy of Performance Data and Weight and Balance computations did not know what they were checking. This came to light during a training course instigated by Graham when he was DO.
- Maintenance was a horror story! They ‘pencil whipped’ maintenance and checks. Frequently, I would arrive at the aircraft for a morning departure and I could tell by the fuel remaining at block in from the log book the night before and comparing it to what was currently onboard the aircraft that the APU was operated all night instead of a ground power unit. I suspected it was so that the mechanics had the comfort of air conditioning from the APU to allow them to sleep all night instead of doing the required maintenance inspections.
- On one of my first flights while at Orient Thai on a dark early morning departure I just by chance from the reflection of my flashlight found the pitot static ports taped over with CLEAR tape with no log book entry. Apparently, there was a belly wash the night before. When I brought it to the attention of a Thai Mechanic his response was, “want me to remove?” No, just leave it there and maybe it will blow off before we crash!
- Another time after spending a night in Hong Kong in the morning during the preflight I asked the mechanic if he did a daily inspection on the aircraft? His response was, “yes”. I asked if the tires were checked as part of the daily and he said no. Which they should have been because it is part of a daily inspection. I told him he better get a gauge and check the tires because some of them looked low. He told me he couldn’t because he had no gauge and he would have to pay a Cathay mechanic to do it and he had no money to pay him.
- The mechanics had no company tools. One time, I asked to borrow a tool from a Flight Mechanic during a long trip. I opened his tool box only to find it full of junk.
- Many times I would force mechanics to get a tire gauge to check the tires. On preflights I found many tires low. I found one tire at just 50 psi (who knows how many flights it had operated at that pressure) when it should have been at 200 psi. “Can’t we just air it up” was the response of a Thai mechanic when I told him to replace the tire. What if I had not been watching when he checked the tire pressure? Anyone that has worked with airplanes for a short period time knows that this is an automatic tire change with the tire coming off being condemned. Blown tires have been known to have caused aircraft accidents. Low tires are something that you can sometimes see. Who knows what is being neglected that is not obvious.
- There is also an instance that I know of where the Chief Pilot (a westerner) grounded an aircraft and offloaded passengers for a maintenance problem. Later finding out instead of fixing the problem with the aircraft the company called out a Filipino crew that was willing to fly the broken aircraft.
- If an intelligent DCA Inspector spent a few hours going through the aircraft log books it would paint an interesting story. He could see where maintenance would sign off deferred maintenance items just as they timed out only to be written up again by a new crew. This would happen several times in a row. There were totally bogus ways they would sign things off. If the Thai DCA was doing their job correctly every Mechanic at Orient Thai would lose their license. Either the DCA is incompetent, corrupt or both. I believe Udom was paying off the DCA.
- I believe that not only should Indonesian airlines be black listed but the EU should take a very serious look at the Thai airlines. Especially the low budget ones (Orient Thai/Thai Sky etc.).
- I am sure some people will view this information as prejudiced, biased or even racist. This is the way it was as I saw it while I was there.
- I believe every western crew member that has left Orient Thai knew that this accident was going to happen; it was just a matter of when.
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baccara bar
bb, coming from the ARSE END OF THE WORLD you are sure spewing ****. The MAS tragedy at Tanjung Kupang some thirty years ago was skipperred by an Indian expat and there weren't any of the **** you mentioned ever recorded.
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Mr bungacengkeh,
You're fairly harsh but I suppose baccara deserves it. I cringe with embarassment everytime someone from Paul Keating's domain put his/her foot in the mouth. I suppose bb is one of those fair dinkums who speaks through his six...many of those around unfortunately.
There are plenty of great Asian pilots that I was fortunate to be acquainted with during my time with a major Pacific Rim carrier. However there are many too who shouldn't be trusted with a lawn mower, much less a plane. Likewise I do know many fruitcakes too from my home country who goes around bad mouthing Asians and non Caucasians in the pathetic efforts to cover up their own inadequacies. Unfortunately bb and Jeff Davies probably got mixed up with the dregs left in those dodgy outfits. However we too have such dodgy outfits too in the western world.
You're fairly harsh but I suppose baccara deserves it. I cringe with embarassment everytime someone from Paul Keating's domain put his/her foot in the mouth. I suppose bb is one of those fair dinkums who speaks through his six...many of those around unfortunately.
There are plenty of great Asian pilots that I was fortunate to be acquainted with during my time with a major Pacific Rim carrier. However there are many too who shouldn't be trusted with a lawn mower, much less a plane. Likewise I do know many fruitcakes too from my home country who goes around bad mouthing Asians and non Caucasians in the pathetic efforts to cover up their own inadequacies. Unfortunately bb and Jeff Davies probably got mixed up with the dregs left in those dodgy outfits. However we too have such dodgy outfits too in the western world.
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Hi Glueball,
Yes, I did stay one year. The first 10 months I was there OT was making positive progress to be a real airline. Then things went south when the Dragon Lady took control and the Thai DO came on board. The handwriting was on the wall and it was time to go.
JD
Yes, I did stay one year. The first 10 months I was there OT was making positive progress to be a real airline. Then things went south when the Dragon Lady took control and the Thai DO came on board. The handwriting was on the wall and it was time to go.
JD
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From todays bangkok post
PHUKET AIR CRASH / FINDING THE CAUSE
Black box data 'matches inquiry'
AMORNRAT MAHITTHIROOK
The information decoded so far from the black box flight recorder of the ill-fated One-Two-Go airliner is said to match the findings of an investigating team which carried out the initial plane crash inquiry in Phuket on Sept 16.
Wuthichai Singhamanee, director of the Aviation Department's Flight Safety Standards Bureau and member of the crash investigation committee, said data from the plane's black box in a lot of ways matched the initial findings of his panel's probe, including communication between the pilot and the control tower, the weather and aircraft conditions.
He declined to elaborate on the details, saying that his panel would meet on Oct 12 to thoroughly analyse the results of the decoded information, which covers more than 30 areas.
Each area still needs to be carefully analysed before the release of the final results, he said.
The initial investigation at the crash site indicated that the One-Two-Go flight's pilot had ignored a wind shear warning from an air traffic controller, which was passed on by the pilot of another flight which landed at the airport minutes ahead of the One-Two-Go flight which crashed in flames after an unusually hard landing.
The flight recorder's information has also ended speculation that the pilot and the aircraft were not in good condition.
Mr Wuthichai also defended the safety standards of the One-Two-Go airline, saying it had met all the safety standard requirements in line with what is laid down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).
In addition, he said, planes registered in Thailand cannot take to the air before receiving airworthiness certificates.
Officials from the Aviation Department are sent to examine the planes before the certificates are issued.
Under ICAO regulations, planes are also subject to pre-flight inspections.
PHUKET AIR CRASH / FINDING THE CAUSE
Black box data 'matches inquiry'
AMORNRAT MAHITTHIROOK
The information decoded so far from the black box flight recorder of the ill-fated One-Two-Go airliner is said to match the findings of an investigating team which carried out the initial plane crash inquiry in Phuket on Sept 16.
Wuthichai Singhamanee, director of the Aviation Department's Flight Safety Standards Bureau and member of the crash investigation committee, said data from the plane's black box in a lot of ways matched the initial findings of his panel's probe, including communication between the pilot and the control tower, the weather and aircraft conditions.
He declined to elaborate on the details, saying that his panel would meet on Oct 12 to thoroughly analyse the results of the decoded information, which covers more than 30 areas.
Each area still needs to be carefully analysed before the release of the final results, he said.
The initial investigation at the crash site indicated that the One-Two-Go flight's pilot had ignored a wind shear warning from an air traffic controller, which was passed on by the pilot of another flight which landed at the airport minutes ahead of the One-Two-Go flight which crashed in flames after an unusually hard landing.
The flight recorder's information has also ended speculation that the pilot and the aircraft were not in good condition.
Mr Wuthichai also defended the safety standards of the One-Two-Go airline, saying it had met all the safety standard requirements in line with what is laid down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).
In addition, he said, planes registered in Thailand cannot take to the air before receiving airworthiness certificates.
Officials from the Aviation Department are sent to examine the planes before the certificates are issued.
Under ICAO regulations, planes are also subject to pre-flight inspections.
"Mr Wuthichai also defended the safety standards of the One-Two-Go airline, saying it had met all the safety standard requirements in line with what is laid down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO)."
Just about says it all to me. We can go on looking for the active failures of the flight crew etc, etc, but what about the error producing conditions already present in the system.
At the end of the day when the people running the show come up with statements like this, we know it is going to be a long, long time before there is any significant change to the safety culture within most of Asia.
(A similar statement was made by Indonesian authorities following Yogojakarta - I think it was "accidents happen")
Just about says it all to me. We can go on looking for the active failures of the flight crew etc, etc, but what about the error producing conditions already present in the system.
At the end of the day when the people running the show come up with statements like this, we know it is going to be a long, long time before there is any significant change to the safety culture within most of Asia.
(A similar statement was made by Indonesian authorities following Yogojakarta - I think it was "accidents happen")
Last edited by kellykelpie; 6th Oct 2007 at 13:17.
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Flight Safety In Danger
Jeffry Davis, your post is spot on.If OX is not properly investigated or even shut down, then more and more passengers lives will be put at risk, that is a given.They can carry on flying people and Mr Udom can have his train set, but he MUST be forced to do it safely.He must conduct proper maintenance.He must carry out the required crew training.He must put in place the correctly qualified ops staff to run his operation instead of Namfon and Ongar etc.He must abide by all the mandated safety rules promulgated by DCA, but not enforced.If not then he is not a fit and proper person to own an airline.Go and run a restuarant.
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If not then he is not a fit and proper person to own an airline.Go and run a restuarant.
Udom maybe 1 half of the equation... Dragon Lady maybe the other half. Soon, we'll have Namfon and Ongar calling the shots on how the waiters should serve the customers and how the dishes should be washed!
STOP! Is there a repeating pattern here? Where's the safety inspectors? Oh hang on, envelopes!
The solution is not for him to run a restaurant... is for him to understand the risks involved by running it the way he's used to, and by having the same people "assisting" him!
Paxing All Over The World
Bangkok Post 6th October
That is soooo reassuring. One immediately feels confidence that the team started with their own investigations and then found that the FDR confirmed it all. If, for example, they had started with the FDR/CVR they might have found that it did not line up with their thinking ... 
The information decoded so far from the black box flight recorder of the ill-fated One-Two-Go airliner is said to match the findings of an investigating team which carried out the initial plane crash inquiry in Phuket on Sept 16.
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We all know which way this story is going
From the Bangkok Post
No surprises in crash probe
By Amornrat Mahitthirook
The information decoded so far from the black box flight recorder of the ill-fated One-Two-Go airliner is said to match the findings of an investigating team which carried out the initial plane crash inquiry in Phuket on Sept 16.
Wuthichai Singhamanee, director of the Aviation Department's Flight Safety Standards Bureau and member of the crash investigation committee, said data from the plane's black box in a lot of ways matched the initial findings of his panel's probe, including communication between the pilot and the control tower, the weather and aircraft conditions.
He declined to elaborate on the details, saying that his panel would meet on Oct 12 to thoroughly analyse the results of the decoded information, which covers more than 30 areas.
Each area still needs to be carefully analysed before the release of the final results, he said.
The initial investigation at the crash site indicated that the One-Two-Go flight's pilot had ignored a wind shear warning from an air traffic controller, which was passed on by the pilot of another flight which landed at the airport minutes ahead of the One-Two-Go flight which crashed in flames after an unusually hard landing.
The flight recorder's information has also ended speculation that the pilot and the aircraft were not in good condition.
Mr Wuthichai also defended the safety standards of the One-Two-Go airline, saying it had met all the safety standard requirements in line with what is laid down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).
In addition, he said, planes registered in Thailand cannot take to the air before receiving airworthiness certificates.
Officials from the Aviation Department are sent to examine the planes before the certificates are issued.
Under ICAO regulations, planes are also subject to pre-flight inspections
From the Bangkok Post
No surprises in crash probe
By Amornrat Mahitthirook
The information decoded so far from the black box flight recorder of the ill-fated One-Two-Go airliner is said to match the findings of an investigating team which carried out the initial plane crash inquiry in Phuket on Sept 16.
Wuthichai Singhamanee, director of the Aviation Department's Flight Safety Standards Bureau and member of the crash investigation committee, said data from the plane's black box in a lot of ways matched the initial findings of his panel's probe, including communication between the pilot and the control tower, the weather and aircraft conditions.
He declined to elaborate on the details, saying that his panel would meet on Oct 12 to thoroughly analyse the results of the decoded information, which covers more than 30 areas.
Each area still needs to be carefully analysed before the release of the final results, he said.
The initial investigation at the crash site indicated that the One-Two-Go flight's pilot had ignored a wind shear warning from an air traffic controller, which was passed on by the pilot of another flight which landed at the airport minutes ahead of the One-Two-Go flight which crashed in flames after an unusually hard landing.
The flight recorder's information has also ended speculation that the pilot and the aircraft were not in good condition.
Mr Wuthichai also defended the safety standards of the One-Two-Go airline, saying it had met all the safety standard requirements in line with what is laid down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).
In addition, he said, planes registered in Thailand cannot take to the air before receiving airworthiness certificates.
Officials from the Aviation Department are sent to examine the planes before the certificates are issued.
Under ICAO regulations, planes are also subject to pre-flight inspections
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Namfon and her restuarant???
Let's not continue with the restuarant theme..been there done that with her already.
OX B757 Charter flight to Africa in 2005/2006....management (Namfon) had been complaining about crew meals and the cost of catering. So on this particular flight her solution was to supply "canned" foods for the crew meal.
No kidding on this one!!!! I was there and took one of those delectable delights and left it on the DFO's desk as evidence of "management's" love for the crew.
OX B757 Charter flight to Africa in 2005/2006....management (Namfon) had been complaining about crew meals and the cost of catering. So on this particular flight her solution was to supply "canned" foods for the crew meal.
No kidding on this one!!!! I was there and took one of those delectable delights and left it on the DFO's desk as evidence of "management's" love for the crew.
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Heard that on impact,the gears were retracted,flaps position half and one single call of windshear warning aleart,copilot was PF. And tower advised wind 40kt bearing 20 degrees with pilot acknowledged.And sink rate was very high prior to impact.
If so, could it be the accident was a go-around hit by a windshear? As opposed to hitting the windshear first and then going around?
PK-KAR
PK-KAR
Are we not talking only seconds and if so what aircraft configuration changes would be different?
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Does it make a difference? I got a little kid wanting to be a pilot, calling me that day thinking it was his father on the plane and begged for me to find out if it was or not. The same kid wants to know why his father's friend died that day! He thinks it's too much for his father to be asked by him as he's just waiting for the end of his contract then leave!
Then you got people who knew the captain asking the same questions.
For them, it can make a difference in understanding how it all happened! Especially as many of them operate under a similar management regime, where leaving isn't "such an easy option"... and they fear when it happens to them, it'll be attributed to pilot error... there's a difference in the bereavement payouts because of that in some places.
For me, it makes a difference because I want to know when was the PIREP from the previous landing crew relayed to the fateful jet. Was the go-around executed properly, what made the airplane became unstable? Was it the windshear afterwards or an error in executing the g/a? or a simple error of performing a standard g/a while already in a windshear?
PK-KAR
Then you got people who knew the captain asking the same questions.
For them, it can make a difference in understanding how it all happened! Especially as many of them operate under a similar management regime, where leaving isn't "such an easy option"... and they fear when it happens to them, it'll be attributed to pilot error... there's a difference in the bereavement payouts because of that in some places.
For me, it makes a difference because I want to know when was the PIREP from the previous landing crew relayed to the fateful jet. Was the go-around executed properly, what made the airplane became unstable? Was it the windshear afterwards or an error in executing the g/a? or a simple error of performing a standard g/a while already in a windshear?
PK-KAR