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MD80 plane crash in Phuket, Sep. 07

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MD80 plane crash in Phuket, Sep. 07

Old 18th Sep 2007, 07:29
  #121 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Africa / Thailand
Age: 67
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You forgot the crosswind case! Like any aircraft with tail mounted engines, you have a big tendency of yaw forces with reversers on in crosswind. It's obvious that they had very strong crosswind (well, not as strong as in the northern hemisphere, but here with most likely a contaminanted runway). As soon as you revers full, you can get a huge turn movement on the vertical axis. The only solution is to reduce the reversers. So they did several attemps to land, then finally saw the runway, wanted to stop, stop quickly because of the runway condition (after the end there is only sea until India), pulled full reverse and where surprised they got off the runway, blaming the crosswind.

Dani
This conclusion follows on from your previous certitude that the airplane landed on RWY 09.

From your profile, I'd guess you were driving for Silkair. Say it ain't so!

I need to maintain my delusion that MI is in a different league from all the other operators into my home port of HKT!
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 07:39
  #122 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Chumphon Thailand
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Thai TV indicated last night that the aircraft used runway 27. I apologise for any earlier misinformation.
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 07:48
  #123 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
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- The Department of Insurance cautioned Orient Thai Airlines this morning that it is fully responsible for compensating victims involved in the crash of Flight OG269 at Phuket, Radio Thailand reported.
News reports have said that Orient Thai has said it carried no insurance on the fatal flight, but promised to compensate Thai victims and their families.
As a yardstick, Silkair settled for USD 200,000 per passenger after their crash (governed by the Warsaw convention), but before the civil lawsuit against them was dismissed (in Singapore).

Parent company Singapore Airlines settled for up to USD 10,000,000 per pax following their Taipei crash.

Orient Thai have offered initial compensation of approx. USD 3,000 and it may not get much better than that. Even if there is valid insurance, the insurers may well prefer to take their chances in the Thai legal system.
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 08:10
  #124 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Singapore
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Medical Expired???

Ok...now I know that many of you would not do this but in Bangkok you can have anything in the world forged including airmen medicals and the Thai DCA does not confirm the validity of any pilot documentation from Foriegn Pilots, including Indonesions, with the issuing authority, FAA, CAA or JAA.

There were rumors of an Orient Thai charter flight into Cambodia back in 2005 that landed and was "ramp checked" by the Cambodian Aviation Authority. There were 4 pilots on board and only one was legal to fly with current documentation. The Chief Pilot of the 757 fleet at that time was on board and guess what? He was one of those who did not have current documents.

So please do not say it was not possible for someone to fly with a medical pulled.
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 08:13
  #125 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: London
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"I watched them remove the wreckage on CNN last night. Hope they don't need it for post crash analysis, they where a tad rough with the heavy equipment. "

Yes, in this country (TH), there doesn't seem to be much care taken in regard to the preservation of, or prevention of contamination to, evidence. Open any newspaper on most days with a photo of a crime scene in it and you'll see uncontrolled access to the area with people picking stuff up with their bare hands, wandering around randomly in their uniform or civvies. In much the same way, the media are allowed (and take up the opportunity), to get full views of suspects after arrest and prior to trial (they tend to be paraded by the police), murder victims at scenes of crime, and seriously injured people as they are taken to hospital, with little care for the consequences. It is very much a place which is in many ways - although not exclusively -driven by emotion rather than rational thought. In this regard it will be interesting to hear what the accident investigators have to say about the whole affair. I will also watch with interest what you experienced pilots on PPRuNe will have to say.

By the way - before I get flamed - I'm not having a go at Thailand, I absolutely love living here!
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 09:10
  #126 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
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They are now saying he landed into known windshear conditions. May explain why the cabin crew may have been briefed for emergency escape. Articel here: http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/200709...ca02f96_2.html
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 09:17
  #127 (permalink)  
 
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They are now saying he landed into known windshear conditions.
Who never did?
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 10:18
  #128 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Having just been to HKT, I can say that our crew executed a missed approach "due to storm over end of airport" ( his words not mine ), we were approaching 09. 10 mins later after a scenic view of Phuket island, we made an approach to 27, with the prevailing wind. Slightly faster, a little more pitch and roll than I would have expected, and a lot more hard braking than any of us expected, we turned off at the threshold of 09....
Winds were +40knts down and slightly across 09 after we disembarked, rain and heavy gusts...
Observations of the Finn video:
Wind is prevalent for RW27 / runway distance marker is 04, anyone see 05 or 03, not likely as you can see down 09 towards the threshold of 27, a large wall of precipitation reducing RVR. Wind is not strong in the video, but as these local CBs move fairly fast, the wind could have been much higher a few minutes earlier, with downdraughts and microbursts.
One thing I have not seen on any pictures ( ready to be corrected ) or even this video, is the lack of ground skid marks from the runway to impact site. Is a thought about a potential ground loop from the touch down point to the point of impact so far fetched.
God rest all.
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 10:35
  #129 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Switzerland, Singapore
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BoughtmyPoints (what a accurate name, how much?), you know as much about Singapore's aviation industry as you claim I know about aviation in general

You want to deny the fact that MD-80 are somewhat tricky in crosswind situation?

Of course the actual stan dpoint is rather runway 27, but the first reports where about runway 09. Only fools insist on their mistakes to be true. Which runway it was it basically irrelevant, unless they where landing with tailwind. Obviously, as it's been brought up, it was more like crosswind.

Buy more points!

Dani
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 10:45
  #130 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
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A very telling letter.........

"Hi xxxx
Can you paste the following letter to the xxxx board site. I sent a copy to xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx, but have not seen a reply. Hope things are well with you.

Yeah, I thought the events of this crash is something I would share. In my world it is absolutely heartbreaking. Those who remember, when xxxx xxxxxx and I first came here, we understood immediately this event would occur. That it took two years is amazing in itself.

Of course a company culture combined with crewmembers willing to disregard safety standards made this crash predictable. One Two Go disregards all Duty and Flight Time Limitations, required maintenance inspections and weather mins. Again none of this can happen unless pilots are culpable and the controlling authority looks the other way.

Am always asked why am I still here? There is no morally good answer. In a self serving way, I felt I found my purpose in the summer of 2006. The company began to hire ab initio Thai pilots. Their training was lacking. I believed I could allow them to have experiences they would not receive with anyone else, show them how to look at situations (approaches, weather, fuel savings techniques) and think differently. Most importantly how to save their lives from the incredibly inept Captains working for One Two Go. As you learn the rest of the story, I failed. Am not sure I will ever forgive myself.

To start with, the Captain, an Indonesian was the Chief Pilot. He had failed his medical early this year and was grounded for two months. It became established that he would fall asleep while at the controls. Specially in the afternoon. The crash occurred around 3:40 pm. It was documented that he became spatially disorientated with the Prime Minister of Afghanistan on board the aircraft on an approach into Kabul. He was removed from all subsequent flights. On two other occasions, First Officers shared stories that they had to take control of the aircraft. (Heresay).

It will be established that fatigue was clearly a factor in this crash. Both Captain and First Officer exceeded flight time limitations the previous two days of the crash. They had flown 19+ hours in a 48 hour period while on duty for 30+ hours in the same period. The sequence was in part, International, with the final sector domestic. After completing the assignment, they were give16 hours off and then assigned 6 sectors (legs) on the day of the crash and were assigned 6 sectors the day following the crash. The crash occurred on their 3rd sector. The First Officer was working his 8th consecutive day.

The First Officer was a Thai ab initio pilot. His name was Montri. A wonderful person, highly respected, well educated. He was an only son. He had worked as an engineer with Japan Airlines. He had interviewed and was given a class date with Thai Airlines this October. I had spent many hours with him, and his flying skills was above average for his experience level. The company was abusing him in that after sitting for months, he was called out to do his bounces and he failed. As a result, the company withdrew 500 dollars a month from his pay for his re-training. On the ground, Montri protected me on at least one occasion. Another story for another day. Yeah, I still find trouble on the ground. Thinkin its that Southern California could care less laid back attitude.

From here on anything written is pure speculation. I have learned from my own experiences that things are not always as they seem. It appears Montri recognized they were in a bad situation and attempted to go around. A lady friend of mine was in the tower at the time and said xxxxxx, xxxxxx (yes, we all know her) tried to go around but the plane would not fly.... Windshear, compressor stall (witnesses claim to have heard a loud bang) or just plain fatigue and lack of experience with an inept Captain. Who knows. Pictures show flaps 15, spoilers and thrust reverser on the left side stowed. It appears they slammed onto the runway and slid off only traveling 60 meters. Som, the ATC lady said they hit around the 2,000 foot marker.

As I am writing this, I have been told that 2 cabin crewmembers have survived. xxxx, was the lead and am being told she is out of surgery. She always flirts with me and makes the old man smile. Yesterday and last night was very very tough. Cabin crewmembers begging to bring them home alive. It is the most helpless feeling I ever had. Much crying, pain and anguish. It is unbearable at times. I am both angry and sad. But time to put those feelings behind.

What happens now? Who knows, I am very tired, Have been exhausted for a long time and .... according to all here I get preferential treatment. Yeah, apparently I am the only one here who gets two consecutive days off every week. I can say that I do not fly illegally and do not knowingly fly unsafe equipment. I told them upfront, I do not and will not fly in the manner they are accustomed to. I also told them I will work hard and they will see things accomplished that perhaps they have never seen before. For two years, they have honored their part and for me, I will let my record speak for itself.

Sorry for being long. Thinkin this is my release. Much pain right now. Those people did not have to die. My friend Montri is gone. But there is joy in learning xxxxxx is alive. No one should have to experience this.

xxxxxxx, I can not feel the pain you losing your wife, but I can imagine a little more now how hard it must have been. I hope in some small way, the burden is lifting."
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 12:12
  #131 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Ko Samui 1990 Bangkok Airways
Surat Thani 1998 Thai Airways
Phuket 2007 One-Two-GO
All landing during heavy rain and wind
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 14:26
  #132 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Tricky in crosswinds?

I don't think reverse thrust came into play at all in this crash. I think DANI is sort of wrong...

while reducing reverse thrust in certain control loss situations on rollout is routine in any plane, this plane didn't land, it crashed, the reversers are not part of this equation.

I also agree with the other poster, it appears the flaps are at 15 (go around) and no spoilers or thrust reversers deployed.

it would appear the plane started to go around, configured for go around and then lost the ability to climb...perhaps due to windshear...
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 14:29
  #133 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
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PS

gear probabaly wasn't retracted as positive rate of climb had not been achieved.
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 14:37
  #134 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 324
Spoilers Re-armed?

As the AA accident at Little Rock proved, a surefire way of having "on the runway" controllability problems in an MD80 is to not get the spoilers (and then not notice that - due to all the attendant distractions stemming from very wet rubberized runways, light on the wheels, gusty crosswinds, low visibility in rain-squalls and poor directional control with tail-mounted reversers).
.
How likely is it that re-arming the spoilers would be overlooked on a subsequent approach (after an initial go-round)?
.
I'm reading that SHIFTPATTERN is claiming that spoilers were seen to be deployed after the 2nd touchdown (but perhaps I'm reading that wrong).
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 15:56
  #135 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
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On several occasions in PEN, HKG, TPE etc I have held or even diverted because I was not happy to ATTEMP a landing in the wx. On one occasion in PEN another A/c ( SQ ) knew I was holding but chose to fly through the red returns on the radar and land!! amazing skill level that.
Now if your saying Thai ATC should improve their wx reporting skills or their ability to tell the Pilot's clearly ( in English ) what the wx is doing, then yes I agree it would help.

Also GROOVING of the Phuket runway must be done.
At the end of the day the Captain makes a decision. ( or not )
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 16:20
  #136 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Shiftpattern,

Very moving and no doubt very true and accurate. However, even if you have the b*lls to say NO it's fairly obvious that many do not and therein lies the root of the problem in most of Asia.

Therefore why does it take such an accident before this kind of information comes out in public? Will you give evidence to the enquiry? Even if that means your job as it undoubtedly would, in the kind of environment you describe.

I can see your zeal in trying to improve standards but IMHO it is misplaced. The only thing that gets results when things are that bad is adverse publicity - loads of it. Unfortunately they now have plenty of it but watch the snakes run for cover!
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 17:00
  #137 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Florida
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Compressor stalls go hand in hand with wing stall on the DC-9/MD80, I'm sure the DFDR will sort out the timing
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 17:08
  #138 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
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On several occasions in PEN, HKG, TPE etc I have held or even diverted because I was not happy to ATTEMP a landing in the wx. On one occasion in PEN another A/c ( SQ ) knew I was holding but chose to fly through the red returns on the radar and land!! amazing skill level that.
Stupidity level was more amazing I think!
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 19:05
  #139 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: SE Asia
Posts: 141
Limited Numbder of Survivors

Having looked at the video shot by the Swedish tourist it is not clear as to why such a high number of the passengers did not survive this accident. The aircraft itself does not appear as badly damaged as some where more have got out...If sadly only two of the FAs survived maybe this is why, they may have course have perished trying to assist the passengers on this plane. I wonder if those who survived were just plain luck, or did they pay more attention to the safety demo. I gather the Swedish guys were sat by the exits....luckily for them.
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Old 18th Sep 2007, 21:08
  #140 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Taiwan
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about a week ago during approach into TPE twr gave us a MICROBURST ALERT at about 900ft, without hesitation I went around,to my surprise the guys behind decided to continue,go figure
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