CARDIFF
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Gents
Can we bring this disagreement to an end please - it is of little interest to the majority of thread followers interested in Cardiff related news etc - if you wish to continue please us PM's???!!!!!!
Can we bring this disagreement to an end please - it is of little interest to the majority of thread followers interested in Cardiff related news etc - if you wish to continue please us PM's???!!!!!!
Brunel to Concorde
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There are ways in which it can be done as it has been done in the past. Don't foget that Bristol was operating at similar levels compared to Cardiff if not lower for quite some time. However the failure to win the bid for a GO base was a start to the problems.
The gap between the two airports actually began to widen after 1986 (the last year in which CWL carried more passengers than BRS - 487K against 469K: both airports were largely charter fields then and CWL did have a slight edge most of the time in the 70s and early 80s). By 2000 BRS was handling 2.124 mppa and CWL 1.500 mppa (100K more than in 2010) and the only low-cost airline around Severnside then was Ryanair which operated only to Dublin from both CWL and BRS. All stats are courtesy of the CAA.
It's absolutely true that the major growth at Bristol occurred after Go set up its base there in 2001 (their second one after Stansted) and, according to Barbara Cassani's book, the short list after an eight-month search around Europe came down to Bristol, Newcastle, East Midlands and Glasgow/Edinburgh. She doesn't mention CWL so we don't know if they were in with any sort of chance.
The key point for Go, if it had come to a straight shoot-out between CWL and BRS, was that, 'The catchment (BRS's) was along the wealthy and populous Thames valley corridor and the West Country was full of well-off older people with time to spare.' (Cassani again).
Not only is the core BRS catchment larger than CWL's but the make-up, both business and leisure, is broadly more prosperous. It has to be asked why airlines and passengers have in increasing numbers taken to using a small airfield on top of an often misty/foggy hill, with a constricted runway and which airline pilots have told us on PPRuNE on many occasions can be extremely challenging under certain weather conditions when there is an airport across the river that has few of these difficulties. The answer can only be one thing - the market.
The CWL master plan has for several years pointed out that it must retrieve those passengers that use neighbouring airports such as BRS and BHX, but it must do more. It must attract passengers from outside its core catchment and its target areas are the West Country and the South Midlands. To do this it will be necessary to take passengers from the core catchments of BRS and BHX.
Given that only four years ago CWL was handing nearly 2.1 mppa there is obviously scope to get back up to at least that level though if a roll takes it that far it's not inconceivable that growth could continue, but the 5 mppa-plus mentioned in the CWL master plan might be a long time in coming.
There is an arguable debate that BRS has overperformed, especially having regard to the location and make-up of its airport (CWL might be in an even worse predicament if the Bristol Corporation had elected for Filton instead of Lulsgate when they moved their airport from Whitchurch in the 1950s).
Where BRS wins and CWL loses is in the ability of the former to more easily attract passengers from outside its own core catchment area, and the fact that on thinner routes BRS needs fewer passengers to 'top-up' flights from further afield than does CWL.
As a regional airport CWL is doubly unlucky in having a near-neighbouring regional airport serving such a prosperous area and, if that is not enough, another even bigger one (BHX) not a million miles away.
There is no doubt in my mind though that CWL ought to be doing better than it is.
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As usual, MV, a well-considered argument. Wish you were over this side of the bridge - your intellect would be sooo useful.
Yes, Bristol got lucky with Go and hence Easyjet. In comparison, CWL got bmibaby - initially a huge win and very exciting but ultimately embroiled, I believe, in corporate pecking-orders and lack of vision. At the same time, baby was confronted with the market conditions you so rightly define. The CWL opportunity was long-haul and I'm proud to have been a part of sustaining that. Stupid decisions were made in three companies that led to nonsensical competition on Orlando and the Caribbean. I firmly believe that the ensueing bloodbath would never happen again and that long-haul CWL remains its USP, even when the 787 enters service.
My difficulty these days is not with market dynamics - which can be defined and managed - but with the inflexibility and drab thinking imposed on CWL from above and reflected by people I regard as yes-men in local charge (they, in return, would regard my disagreement as some kind of betrayal but I never signed up to this current approach!)
Yes, we can reach 2.1 m pax again. Yes, the current master plan needs to be discarded and re-imagined. No, we cannot catch up with Bristol in the short or medium term and even the long term takes a lot of faith to picture,
However, there is a particular strength Wales could have over the South West. Co-ordination; cross-industry agreement; engagement and involvement. I submit that, as far as such an advantage is concerned, Wales Air Network is the only game in town.
Yes, Bristol got lucky with Go and hence Easyjet. In comparison, CWL got bmibaby - initially a huge win and very exciting but ultimately embroiled, I believe, in corporate pecking-orders and lack of vision. At the same time, baby was confronted with the market conditions you so rightly define. The CWL opportunity was long-haul and I'm proud to have been a part of sustaining that. Stupid decisions were made in three companies that led to nonsensical competition on Orlando and the Caribbean. I firmly believe that the ensueing bloodbath would never happen again and that long-haul CWL remains its USP, even when the 787 enters service.
My difficulty these days is not with market dynamics - which can be defined and managed - but with the inflexibility and drab thinking imposed on CWL from above and reflected by people I regard as yes-men in local charge (they, in return, would regard my disagreement as some kind of betrayal but I never signed up to this current approach!)
Yes, we can reach 2.1 m pax again. Yes, the current master plan needs to be discarded and re-imagined. No, we cannot catch up with Bristol in the short or medium term and even the long term takes a lot of faith to picture,
However, there is a particular strength Wales could have over the South West. Co-ordination; cross-industry agreement; engagement and involvement. I submit that, as far as such an advantage is concerned, Wales Air Network is the only game in town.
Last edited by PeterP; 18th Feb 2011 at 21:12.
Mach 3
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IMHO there isn't any point CWL even attempting to compete with BRS. The battle has been lost and I'd be surprised if traffic recovers to even 2mppa levels overnight. The catchment area and average income of the local population determine the ultimate demand.
It needs another business model.
Get GECAT to build a few level D simulators on the southside, or Lufthansa Technik to put a MRO facility there, or QinetiQ to build a few wind tunnels for some super R&D establishment.
Oh but that'll mean someone actually bothering to build a road to the airport which will actually help you get there, or a train for that matter.
Blueskies man, blueskies...
It needs another business model.
Get GECAT to build a few level D simulators on the southside, or Lufthansa Technik to put a MRO facility there, or QinetiQ to build a few wind tunnels for some super R&D establishment.
Oh but that'll mean someone actually bothering to build a road to the airport which will actually help you get there, or a train for that matter.
Blueskies man, blueskies...
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This would mean the entire Welsh aviation sector submitting to clinical depression. That's not going to happen.
Agreed ... it will take at least three years and a new mindset at CWL to get back to 2m pax. Fair enough ... let's get to it. Do we need a new road? As much as Bristol does. MROs? Plenty of scope for such activity at other Welsh fields - just look at some of the potential runway lengths and the strength of Wales' existing aerospace manufacturing and MRO sector.
Yes, the present administration has lost the battle with Bristol in some important market sectors. That is no reason to accept defeat on all fronts, a view WAN is at the forefront of presenting. There are ways to think, manage and market CWL out of its current meltdown.
Meanwhile, many thanks to current contributors to this discussion for the more intelligent approach being taken as compared to last night!
Agreed ... it will take at least three years and a new mindset at CWL to get back to 2m pax. Fair enough ... let's get to it. Do we need a new road? As much as Bristol does. MROs? Plenty of scope for such activity at other Welsh fields - just look at some of the potential runway lengths and the strength of Wales' existing aerospace manufacturing and MRO sector.
Yes, the present administration has lost the battle with Bristol in some important market sectors. That is no reason to accept defeat on all fronts, a view WAN is at the forefront of presenting. There are ways to think, manage and market CWL out of its current meltdown.
Meanwhile, many thanks to current contributors to this discussion for the more intelligent approach being taken as compared to last night!
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Llandow airfield
With regard to Phileas Fogg's comments about the thriving Welsh aviation scene, particularly Llandow. The last time i was at Llandow was in the eighties when i was stationed at nearby RAF St Athan, then the only thing i saw flying from there were radio controlled aircraft while i was learning to drive a lorry on the dissued runway.So just for information's sake can anyone let me know what is the situation now at Llandow.
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TRH, Cardiff already has BAMC and little scope for anything else of substance. Wales has a small number of MRO and allied companies headquartered here, undertaking a range of services on a range of aeronautical equipment. Expansion of runway length would be possible elsewhere, to serve a number of needs. You might think me nuts but scroll through aerial photography of our runways and you will even find one that could be a reversible runway for A380s, with plenty of scope of BAMC+ sized workspace. Huge, in fact!
OK. A challenge to PPruNers.
Spot the potential for an A380 MRO base in Wales, perhaps using Google Earth. I have a particular ex-military location in mind. My personal answer will only appear as a WAN Member-Only page at our main site and our FB/LinkedIn centres on our second birthday. Sorry, if you write Facebook here, it gets PPruNe replaced for book.
I want: your suggested location, how it might be created; and three or more reasons why it would work. I have emailed my own answer in confidence to a third party for safe keeping.
The prize? I haven't much money but I can pay for not only a drop-off at the front of CWL but also a pick-up 7 or 14 days later.
Woo-hoo.
OK. A challenge to PPruNers.
Spot the potential for an A380 MRO base in Wales, perhaps using Google Earth. I have a particular ex-military location in mind. My personal answer will only appear as a WAN Member-Only page at our main site and our FB/LinkedIn centres on our second birthday. Sorry, if you write Facebook here, it gets PPruNe replaced for book.
I want: your suggested location, how it might be created; and three or more reasons why it would work. I have emailed my own answer in confidence to a third party for safe keeping.
The prize? I haven't much money but I can pay for not only a drop-off at the front of CWL but also a pick-up 7 or 14 days later.
Woo-hoo.
Last edited by PeterP; 19th Feb 2011 at 18:14.
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"My personal answer will only appear as a WAN Member-Only page at our main site and our FB/LinkedIn centres on our second birthday"
Spoken like a true "suit" , though quite a weak effort to get people to join your "aviation" site
edited to correct formatting
Spoken like a true "suit" , though quite a weak effort to get people to join your "aviation" site
edited to correct formatting
(want more planes at CWL)? Are you offering a prize too.
Don't forget the newest airfield in Wales, Charlotte Church International. 328 yards of prime turf, conveniently located just outside the zone at St Brides. PPA so far last year is only '1' but growing steadily.
PPR only, no ILS, landings free but compulsory handling charge of a bottle of wine, high-viz jackets banned. Closer to the motorway than EGFF!
PPR only, no ILS, landings free but compulsory handling charge of a bottle of wine, high-viz jackets banned. Closer to the motorway than EGFF!
Thread Starter
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Come on Phileas Fogg stop playing these games again. It's not as if Cardiff is the only airport that isn't exactly located where it states in the name.
Cardiff Airport has never hidden the fact that it is indeed located in/near the village of Rhoose plus in the Vale of Glamorgan not the City of Cardiff. This is indeed visible on their website
The fact is that the airport is called Cardiff Airport so when SWBKCB says
they are indeed correct.
So please stop going out trying to wind everybody up again
Cardiff Airport has never hidden the fact that it is indeed located in/near the village of Rhoose plus in the Vale of Glamorgan not the City of Cardiff. This is indeed visible on their website
The fact is that the airport is called Cardiff Airport so when SWBKCB says
any chance of getting the discussion back to Cardiff airport?
So please stop going out trying to wind everybody up again
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mathers,
One of you lot, besides the one that told me to return to the hole I crawled out of, tried to tell me that Wales is an aviation nation.
Out of curiosity I visited the WAN website and read a discussion where one guy was suggesting a Beech 90 schedule between Haverfordwest and Newquay ..... this is one hell of an aviation nation Wales has!
And then I read of the CWL load controller that, to the effect, complains that Ppruners try to tell you lot you're talking from your @sses yet on you own little website you can get away with talking from your @sses!
When I was a kid I had a scalextric and a train set, you lot, despite your ages, are still playing 'aviation nation'!
The truth hurts doesn't it?
One of you lot, besides the one that told me to return to the hole I crawled out of, tried to tell me that Wales is an aviation nation.
Out of curiosity I visited the WAN website and read a discussion where one guy was suggesting a Beech 90 schedule between Haverfordwest and Newquay ..... this is one hell of an aviation nation Wales has!
And then I read of the CWL load controller that, to the effect, complains that Ppruners try to tell you lot you're talking from your @sses yet on you own little website you can get away with talking from your @sses!
When I was a kid I had a scalextric and a train set, you lot, despite your ages, are still playing 'aviation nation'!
The truth hurts doesn't it?
