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Old 1st Dec 2007, 14:53
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The only reason why Leeds is not a much bigger player in today's airport market is because of poor decisions in the past. I guess that when 14/32 (or 15/33) was planned they had one eye on the Brabazon report, which envisaged domestic and short haul traffic being handled by tubo-props. But with the runway not long in service, Court-line etc were offering package holidays using 1-11s from other regional airports which seemed to have long enough runways already. When it was finally decided that a longer runway was needed, a fresh planning application was required and as we all know this was turned down. This was the time when it might have been possible to start from afresh at a different site. A report 'An Airport for Yorkshire' was published, but no proposals worthy of the major funding required came out of it.

So eventually Yeadon got the longer runway it deserved, but even then the planners tied a hand behind the airport's back with the rigid night time curfew. In the meantime, people just became used to travelling to Manchester, and accepted it as one of those things.

The airport is now starting to make up for lost time, in many ways thanks to Jet2, and it can go much further. People are increasingly now breaking the Manchester habit and insisting on flying from Leeds. I know a number of people who will interline at Heathrow rather than go to Manchester for a direct flight.

As long as basic requirements are met, airport success does not depend on an elaborate infrastructure but on the city or cities that it serves. Leeds is one of the UK's biggest cities, far larger than Bristol, Cardiff, Nottingham, Edinburgh, Newcastle, etc. and a major centre for financial and legal services. This is why it's airport will grow, and arguments about quality of runway, state of the terminal and weather are peripheral. Do you think that airline management base their decisions on what crew think about flying there? Bridgepoint know exactly what they have bought into. It is the converse of this argument that explains why a certain airport with it's lengthy runway can only manage IT flights, and only ever will.

Last edited by BKS Air Transport; 1st Dec 2007 at 19:59. Reason: content
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Old 1st Dec 2007, 18:39
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Right I’ve got to bite me tongue.

To answer your question Leodis.
I can report that not one aircraft diverted away from LBA last night. Everything got in as planned. That’s including all 8 of based airline Jet2’s Boeing 737-300’s and the 2 x B757’s along with the usual bmi’s, KLM Fokker 100 and Eastern Airways Jetstream 41. Now that wouldn’t have happened a couple of years ago.

Rainboe:
Come on, If you’ve a Carveley lad then you should be pleased to know that LBIA will continue to grow while John Parkin & Bridgepoint Capital are about. That’s with out spending the taxpayer’s money. Who needs it after all when you have a private company who has paid £145.5 million for the place and is still wiling to invest another £70 million in it?

I think LBIA is about to be going places. And its about time 2. For 2 long LBA had been held back by it's old 5 share holders.
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Old 1st Dec 2007, 19:37
  #203 (permalink)  
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Chaps I appreciate you like the place, but it really is a dog! The prevailing wind is at 90 degrees to the runway. I was based there from July to October and diverted once with cloud, and only just scraped in once, very close to diversion, but admittedly that was CAT I restricted ops for us. For international operations, the runway is shameful. It needs complete resurfacing. It is inadequate for long range operations. The terrain hazards to the northwest are brutal, the wind effects dire. It is disconcerting doing a turn at the 32 threshold to find yourself perched on a precipice. Our briefings for take-off on 14 include 'if we are going to run off the end, I'm going over the right hand side of the runway- we might have a chance there!' That is not being melodramatic. It's all very well to stretch the runway to the northwest, but that just takes you closer to the moors, and probably for terrain reasons won't allow much extra take-off weight. The approach takes you right over the city centre- anti-social. All the buildings need renovating/rebuilding- it's now prefab city.. Terrible to get to & from the motorways. You may be aware of infrastructure shortcomings and overlook them, but there are so many operational deficiencies with the place as well, whatever these businessmen have paid, it really is inadequate for future progress.

The danger is becoming committed to it and saddled with a long term unimprovable monstrosity on top of a hill that actually holds back local progress! You will never have long haul schedules from this turkey. I have no personal axe to grind. I liked Yorkshire very much (exept for John Smiths), and was quite struck by Leeds (but I am a Hampshire man), but it needs a respectable long runway and modern terminal if it is going to flower. I'm merely trying to post that maybe now is the time to flog the site for housing (I would like to buy the 32 threshold!) and build a place near the motorways and railway. It would pay for itself in a few years. But LBA? Has even PIA shown any interest in using it for the giant local market? No- because it's dreadful. SE of Leeds is the open area with fantastic communication. Build a green field decent airport there (John Smiths International?) and watch it (and Leeds) grow! Decent airports bring prosperity with them, that is why LBA is languishing.

Not abuse from a southerner. A genuine suggestion. And no taxpayers money! Robber Brown has already sunk 29 billion of mine into inexplicably financing Northern Rock. You up there have spent it NR- no more!
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Old 1st Dec 2007, 22:24
  #204 (permalink)  
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No-one is saying the terminal doesn't need improving. Bother the read the history and you'll see everyone is saying the same thing. But the idea, it actually can't be improved is odd given recent history. Indeed, ABN-Amro, Barclays, Balfour Beatty, TBI, Bridgepoint and others were all prepared to put significant amounts of their own money forward on the basis their detailed appraisal of the airport potential suggested the complete polar opposite of your own appraisal. Indeed so far off the opposite end of the scale that the winning bid proved to be a UK record in terms of the price to earnings relationship of an infrastructure asset (about 30 times earnings) a clear indicator of the potential they believe to be there. This before they spend £70m upgrading the place.
That's no guarantee that they are right and you are wrong - only time will tell on that one. Nonetheless, you'll understand why the consistent professional opinions of 5 individual investment companies and airport operators will be taken as a better guide than your own. Ultimately it's a private business, receives no public subsidy (and didn't do for 2 decades before the council sold it) and its fate, as just like almost all businesses, will be determined by market forces. No one is forcing anyone to do anything against their will here. Consumers have a free choice. Airlines have a free choice. The owners of the airport have a free choice. No forced hands, no subsidies, no council or government handouts. Just a business that will either successfully serve local demand and will thrive or one which won't and will struggle. Hard to see what anyone's issue with that could be
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Old 1st Dec 2007, 22:57
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Rainboe - time for a truce?

Well at least we can agree on 1 thing! John Smith's is really not a representitive beer of Yorkshire. Go for Tim Taylor's Landlord or Sam Smith's Old Brewery instead. You can't be a bad chap after all!

And this isn't a north - south thing either! As you can see from my location, I'm a Compton, NIGIT, NORRY, VAPID sort of person....although I do not originate from the Royal County. I moved (from the northern wastelands) south long ago, tend to fly out of LHR & LGW, am a BA Exec Card holder (heck, I'm flying Club Europe to TFS in February - upset that option is being withdrawn after March). I will never move back north...I'm settled here in the south!

But my roots are ooop North and all the regular posters on the this thread of PPRuNe (like 682, PTH, Leodis, LBIA, Bom CR7, A300boy and myself) for whatever reason have an affinity with the airport and believe the place has legs.

Now you don't. The reality is there is nowhere proximate to the Leeds / Bradford conurbation that could ever be developed as an alternative airfield....it won't happen!

So, should the residents of West Yorkshire be therefore consigned to flying from other airfields (DSA or MAN as examples)?.

No....despite the access issues, for many in the conurbation, LBA is still the easiest airfield to reach. Coincidence or otherwise, some of the the most affluent areas of both Leeds and Bradford (Allwoodley, Horsforth, Tranmere Park, Bramhope, Menston, Guiseley, Baildon & Eldwick) all reside at the LBA side of their respective cities. Yes if you're from Drighlington or Belle Isle - the drive across town might be a pain - but really what level of repeat business are you going to derive from either of these locations? Add in the fact that the North Yorkshire hinterlands of Harrogate and York, indeed a whole plethora of settlements north of Poole Bank have serious money - then it's no surprise that a good quality loco like Jet2 is doing alright.

There is money to be made at LBA, Jet2 are doing it and with careful investment so could others....Pakistan is a market which should work, Toronto likwise - loads of Yorkshire ex-pats, Florida has a chance as does Dubai.

To summarise, we are not going to change your mind and vice versa....so white flags at dawn?
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Old 1st Dec 2007, 23:28
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Rainboe

Sorry..that was mutual white flags!
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Old 1st Dec 2007, 23:52
  #207 (permalink)  
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We're seeing different things! You are watching a nice little regional airport, convenient for the city, nice little terminal etc from a passenger point of view. Cute little place. I am seeing a runway and local terrain, and local weather, and expansion limited possibilities, all of which are dreadful. I don't think any of you appreciate from an operational flying point of view what a turkey it is. It will never take longhaul- you cannot safely get flights to Florida or Karachi off this place, whichever way you try and stretch the runway (there is only one way). I've just tried to say that there is no point throwing good money after bad, but throw it they will, for political and erroneous commitment reasons. I think it is a disastrous step, but when I see people talking LBA here all the time, it needs a voice to say now and then what a turkey the place really is, and it's overdue for the chop. But then you get accused of being a southerner being rude.

There you are. It will be interesting watching as this place sucks up investment and curiouosly goes nowhere! And people will be bemused as to why it went wrong. It cannot be expanded to the level needed.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 02:11
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Ok Rainboe...see you in 2017

Let's see where we are then.

Here in London, Crossrail should have been delivered, but I can't see LHR's third or LGW's second strip being delivered.....if that is the case, there will be a need for all the regions to take their pax if the SE airports aren't to come to a halt. You might be glad of some airfields outside the SE to take those pax.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 08:18
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Sorry lads. LBA gives me the willies.

Pax viewpoint here. I'm a confident regular business flyer and very little gives me the willies. But I just do not enjoy LBA at all. On a fine day, bang! On a bad day, it's white knuckles all the way : nauseous crosswind approaches, that floaty sense you're too high over Horsforth then the sudden rush up, galloping down the hill with the brakes on . . . Sorry to sound melodramatic, I am sure the professionals are 100% in control. The point I am making, is that I never even give a moment's thought to airport safety anywhere else, but with LBA the passenger experience is (in my view) materially affected.

Manchester has its problems but I am incredulous at the suggestion pax who would willingly transit LBA-LHR instead of a direct flight from MAN! LHR is so awful I will take a direct flight from MAN in economy ahead of an LHR transit in business every time.

I would love to support the place and still have a soft spot for its relative ease of use. Most of the holiday pax on whom the growth is based, will be oblivious to concerns about crosswind, terrain etc. But if it bothers me, then I assume others may feel the same. Long-haul??? You would not get me on LBA-DXB in a month of Sundays!
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 09:46
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"It will never take longhaul"
Rainboe it already does! TUI 767s have been doing it on and off for years on cruise fights to Barbados etc. Wardair did a Toronto before they expired using 747/DC10 before another operator, can't remember their name also now expired I believe, took over with 757s and even DC-8s. Swefly did Lahore with 767s before they folded, and no these airlines didn't collapse due to their LBA losses! Agreed the runway does need more length to do it direct at full load daily, when the wind doesn't play and yes it does need resurfacing and flattening like Luton did, another on the hill airport doing nicely thanks! Another 100m at each end would probably surfice but the end which needs it most ,the Leeds end, is constrained to not much more than that sadly.
All in all with a small focus on the runway and landing aids the place would certainly be slightly safer and more capable but even without it, it will still flourish purely due to it's location and the fact that a new Leeds airport simply wont happen. I look forward to the next couple of years and hope to see this turkey meet it's long overdue potential.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 14:05
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A300boy

I suspect Rainboe is having fun prodding the local neddys ! but at least we have had a debate without a slagging match so good on you all. I stick by my comment of a limited long haul programme in the near future lots of things can be done to improve the landing distance and take off distance available and performance issues can be addressed including new aircraft types like the 787, but I still agree with him and our nervous passenger landing at Leeds is allways a little more challenging my Dan-Air days of B727-200 operation between Ibiza and Leeds spring to mind but then again last weeks Cat 2 arrival in Luton on runway 08 will also stay with me for some time.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 15:43
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I think most of us accept that Rainboe's acid comments are close to the mark.
I am only SLF but over the years I have probably been a pax on several hundred LBA flights going back to the sixties.
However, LBA is not on my list of scary experiences.In fact, nowhere near.
I have experienced conditions even with a 1 wheel sideways touch and go in awful weather.
But, I must say,I never really felt worried or scared. In particular,some of the Jet2 drivers perform absolute greasers in bad conditions.
And, on 32,most try to stop before the first turn off at 5400ft.
I have only been diverted twice in all those years.
My worst landing ever? At Gatwick during a gale.
Many airports are on hills. In fact, I think many seem to be. Look at Bilbao, the runway is on a bloody shelf.
I nearly always experience hard landings in Warsaw, I don't know why because the place is flat.
Then consider the infamous Kai Tak,the heavy drivers really miss the place, looking into people's apartments on the approach.
I once went in during a typhoon.Best landing ever.(BA First Officer flying)
So, in conclusion, we cannot move the place so let's make the best of it.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 16:21
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HI there im steve and this is my first post, Im local leeds boy and work at LBA on the ramp.

To contine the convosation, Saheen Air which has been floting around has now purchased a A310 as far a know and will be starting operations into LBA from pakistan, and that sort or region in February.

What im trying to say, if this pulls off will this be the start of the medium/long hauls returning to LBA. Just on friday the 30th nov, there was a direct service to New Orleans from LBA by TUI. Maybe this might help the other airlines have a look in and see what they can do?


Just to add found this video on youtube of past users of LBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bis7zQ3PzeE


Cheers Steve.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 16:39
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TUI New Orleans flight

I presume this was cruise related flight.Anybody any idea a/c type and pax onboard?.Did it go nonstop,or stop on the way?Anybody get a photo?
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 16:51
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lbalad wrote
I presume this was cruise related flight.Anybody any idea a/c type and pax onboard?.Did it go nonstop,or stop on the way?Anybody get a photo?

Yep it was a P&O Cruise charter again. In fact the second one of this winters programme. Thomsonfly used one of there Boeing 767-300 aircraft (G-OBYI).

It operated with full Pax on board so it had to go via Manchester for fuel top up. The inbound leg is due back in 2 weeks time direct from Bridgetown.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 16:57
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Devil

Nice video montage...

This might bring a smile to Rainboe's face.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VLYpKGVBUg&eurl=

Stoney


Old Chinese proverb say: Manchester low croud means Reeds velly foggy

Edited due alzheimers

Last edited by StoneyBridge Radar; 2nd Dec 2007 at 19:54.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 17:38
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I think you'll find the Iberia was at Bristol, not Leeds.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 17:40
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I have interlined at LHR, AMS, BRU and LGW (when the service existed). Infinitely preferable to the busy, rain swept, closed because of accident, M62. And I am certainly not alone in this view.
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 18:00
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If i remember rightly the last time Iberia was at LBA was for Euro 1996?
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Old 2nd Dec 2007, 18:05
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Manchester has its problems but I am incredulous at the suggestion pax who would willingly transit LBA-LHR instead of a direct flight from MAN! LHR is so awful I will take a direct flight from MAN in economy ahead of an LHR transit in business every time.
How about us crazy folk who travel across to MAN, then fly down to LHR to connect?
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