BELFAST (BHD) - 3
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Greater Aldergrove
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A CO move to BHD prevents the route ever becoming wide-body...and given the good loads that CO are carrying, a wide-body is not inconceivable. Once 787s start joining CO, that will free up 762s and 764s for other routes...and they can't use BHD!
Also, don't be surprised if the any eventual planning approval for the new runway puts some form of limit on aircraft size...and I'd be surprised if that limit allowed anything more than a 738 or A321...
Finally, what is the performance of a fully-loaded 757 off 2300m or thereabouts? Probably sufficient for TATL, but leaves little room for comfort. Throw in the more regular closure of BHD due to weather, and the operational reasons for CO sticking with BFS are probably compelling.
Also, don't be surprised if the any eventual planning approval for the new runway puts some form of limit on aircraft size...and I'd be surprised if that limit allowed anything more than a 738 or A321...
Finally, what is the performance of a fully-loaded 757 off 2300m or thereabouts? Probably sufficient for TATL, but leaves little room for comfort. Throw in the more regular closure of BHD due to weather, and the operational reasons for CO sticking with BFS are probably compelling.
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Regular closure? Explain to me when these always happen to be regular? Why would CO upgrade a route which is performing well, but couldn't support a widebodied 767!
Im not sure about cargo performance with CO to EWR but I can't see BFS getting a regular 767 service, it would just be overkill and im sure CO have the economics down to a tee with the 757, plus the enormous difficulties to upgrade the route and change domestic schedules or international for a dinghy wee route!!!
Im not sure about cargo performance with CO to EWR but I can't see BFS getting a regular 767 service, it would just be overkill and im sure CO have the economics down to a tee with the 757, plus the enormous difficulties to upgrade the route and change domestic schedules or international for a dinghy wee route!!!
Join Date: Aug 2001
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super737,
I think I was actually suggesting that a 767 was indeed viable on the route. The rule of thumb as I understand it, is that once over 80% load factor, a larger aircraft will be considered. A CO 762 actually carries about the same number of passengers as a CO 752, while a 764 carries about 20 or 40 more depending on configuration. So the 764 sounds like a sensible growth strategy for a route like BFS and frees a valuable 757 for further expansion.
As for the 'regular closure' of BHD, anyone who reads this thread will know that a diversion from BHD to BFS is not an uncommon occurence.
I think I was actually suggesting that a 767 was indeed viable on the route. The rule of thumb as I understand it, is that once over 80% load factor, a larger aircraft will be considered. A CO 762 actually carries about the same number of passengers as a CO 752, while a 764 carries about 20 or 40 more depending on configuration. So the 764 sounds like a sensible growth strategy for a route like BFS and frees a valuable 757 for further expansion.
As for the 'regular closure' of BHD, anyone who reads this thread will know that a diversion from BHD to BFS is not an uncommon occurence.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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This thread never ceases to amuse me. How many of us have done parked at Aldergrove to the City centre in 15 mins. I have done it to the City Airport in 15 at not much less than 100mph for most of the way and on the motorbike in 11 mins at double the speed limit but maybe Ulsterbus know a shortcut?
I also have to disagree with diversion ex BHD being in any way common.
There are about 40,000 movements there a year so thats roughly 20,000 inbound flights and out of those how many would end up being diverted in a year. You can`t count the diversions due out of hours operations as what you are getting at is mainly though not exclusively the weather factors.
Fog (with visibility below 550 metres rings a bell), excessive Crosswind component, Snow Closure, Rwy/Lighting/Navaid unserviceability and aircraft defects requiring longer rwy length eg. flapless landing on wet rwy are the main reasons that come to mind straight away.
Don`t forget that some of the diversions won`t even go to Aldergrove as the conditions there may be very similar and it is simply a matter of crew or aircraft weather minima in regard to visibility or cloud base.
Ok so lets try to guestimate, i`ll say that in an average year through the above conditions Belfast City loses less than thirty flights to Aldergrove. That is less than 0.15% of inbound aircraft and in my book that can never be described as either common or unacceptable. Anyone got a better guess?
However for the record I think it would not be a good move for Continental to leave their home in the countryside as in my very simplistic view it is way too close to the acceptable limits of the aircraft performance and parking limits and offers limited expansion possibilty.
I also have to disagree with diversion ex BHD being in any way common.
There are about 40,000 movements there a year so thats roughly 20,000 inbound flights and out of those how many would end up being diverted in a year. You can`t count the diversions due out of hours operations as what you are getting at is mainly though not exclusively the weather factors.
Fog (with visibility below 550 metres rings a bell), excessive Crosswind component, Snow Closure, Rwy/Lighting/Navaid unserviceability and aircraft defects requiring longer rwy length eg. flapless landing on wet rwy are the main reasons that come to mind straight away.
Don`t forget that some of the diversions won`t even go to Aldergrove as the conditions there may be very similar and it is simply a matter of crew or aircraft weather minima in regard to visibility or cloud base.
Ok so lets try to guestimate, i`ll say that in an average year through the above conditions Belfast City loses less than thirty flights to Aldergrove. That is less than 0.15% of inbound aircraft and in my book that can never be described as either common or unacceptable. Anyone got a better guess?
However for the record I think it would not be a good move for Continental to leave their home in the countryside as in my very simplistic view it is way too close to the acceptable limits of the aircraft performance and parking limits and offers limited expansion possibilty.
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
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Conti manage very well in getting off our pathetic 2011m runway even with a 6kt tail wind in a 752, what would the problem be, with regard to aircraft performance if City went up to 2300m?
Mind you, the idea that Conti would up sticks and move to the harbour is a bit far fetched. For Conti pax, the bus journey is negligible, lets face it, Liberty to downtown Manhatten takes between 30 mins and 1hr 15 depending on time of day so I can't see Conti being that concerned about onward journey times for it's pax.
Mind you, the idea that Conti would up sticks and move to the harbour is a bit far fetched. For Conti pax, the bus journey is negligible, lets face it, Liberty to downtown Manhatten takes between 30 mins and 1hr 15 depending on time of day so I can't see Conti being that concerned about onward journey times for it's pax.
Rebel PPRuNer
Join Date: Aug 2000
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Could a reasonably loaded but lightly fueled CO 767 manage to get out of BHD-SNN, be precleared and land back in from a direct crossing? (per BA's LCY-SNN-JFK-LCY plan)
This could then assume the role of the current SNN-EWR 757 also although it would suck for Shannonites to have a stop added eastbound similar to the summer Air Transat service.
This could then assume the role of the current SNN-EWR 757 also although it would suck for Shannonites to have a stop added eastbound similar to the summer Air Transat service.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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There might be an issue with the Apron at BHD not having a sufficient PCN (Pavement Classification Number) to allow operation of a B757 loaded for a Trans-Atlantic flight. I think the runway is strong enough; the taxiway(s) might be as well.
Join Date: Mar 2001
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The PCN at BHD is fine.
All that is required if it is not up to the full spec is an increase in the frequency of engineering inspections, etc. There are numerous runways, taxiways and aprons in the UK where the PCN does not meet the ACN (Aircraft Classification Number) - this does not prevent large aircraft with high nose wheel point loadings from operating at these sites.
The obstacle environment at BHD is more likely to be of concern to CO than the PCN.
All that is required if it is not up to the full spec is an increase in the frequency of engineering inspections, etc. There are numerous runways, taxiways and aprons in the UK where the PCN does not meet the ACN (Aircraft Classification Number) - this does not prevent large aircraft with high nose wheel point loadings from operating at these sites.
The obstacle environment at BHD is more likely to be of concern to CO than the PCN.
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Northern Ireland
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Aer Lingus at BFS tonight
EI 0059
PARIS
15:30
20:00
INDEFINITE DELAY
PARIS
15:30
20:00
INDEFINITE DELAY
Detail from the Belfast Airport website, Aer Lingus delay on arrival from Paris and outgoing flight to Barcelona. What happening here? Aircraft gone tech or what?
Does anybody have any details?
Join Date: Jul 2006
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EI 0059
PARIS
15:30
20:00
INDEFINITE DELAY
PARIS
15:30
20:00
INDEFINITE DELAY
Detail from the Belfast Airport website, Aer Lingus delay on arrival from Paris and outgoing flight to Barcelona. What happening here? Aircraft gone tech or what?
Does anybody have any details?
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Larne, UK
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snow everywhere by the looks of it..
EZY cancelled their BFS to CDG after its inbound flight had a 3 hour delay i think and could only get a slot for after 2200
EI originally cancelled their BFS-BCN flight but for some reason changed their mind, finally the BCN-BFS flight made it back at 02:25..
EZY cancelled their BFS to CDG after its inbound flight had a 3 hour delay i think and could only get a slot for after 2200
EI originally cancelled their BFS-BCN flight but for some reason changed their mind, finally the BCN-BFS flight made it back at 02:25..
Join Date: Jul 2006
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I sometimes wonder if airport management ever think long-term. Take the example of jet2. They started new routes from Bfs, routes that were probably only capable of supporting one airline, like Prg. They let other airlines on as well, Jet2 left and now the other airlines are leaving as well. I believe that we will now have no service to prg and a reduced service to Agp this summer.
Would they not be better getting a better idea the capacity of a route and if it is only capable of supporting one carrier, keeping it at that level and trying to ensure stability? I am sure there are other routes that would be like this.
True Blue
Would they not be better getting a better idea the capacity of a route and if it is only capable of supporting one carrier, keeping it at that level and trying to ensure stability? I am sure there are other routes that would be like this.
True Blue
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True Blue,
Totally agree, but is that not the point of a free market economy. All companies can fight for their little piece of the market. Jet2 commenced the PRG and BCN routes from Belfast and now off both.
The thing that really gets my goat, is that Northern Ireland travellers seem to be happy to bucket and spade it in the traditional sun destinations. Malaga is daily with EZY and I think 5 week with EI. Alicante, Faro etc, all high frequency. Yet try establish a decent Greek summer programme, no, seems that most would rather lap up Spanish costa's or Canaries. Basically every other airport of similar size on the mainland has direct flights to Egypt, but not BFS. East Mid's is getting full winter Goa flights, Bristol and Glasgow I think are retaining Gambia winter flights, however BFS still in the Bally Ponsa mentality.
I know that sounds harsh, and I know not everybody is like that, but its annoying when you want to go somewhere a little different and have to travel through London.
Even our city break choices are dwindling with 3 out of 4 polish routes gone due to lack of demand it would seem, Budapest gone, Prague gone. Better pack my bags for Barcelona, again!!!
Totally agree, but is that not the point of a free market economy. All companies can fight for their little piece of the market. Jet2 commenced the PRG and BCN routes from Belfast and now off both.
The thing that really gets my goat, is that Northern Ireland travellers seem to be happy to bucket and spade it in the traditional sun destinations. Malaga is daily with EZY and I think 5 week with EI. Alicante, Faro etc, all high frequency. Yet try establish a decent Greek summer programme, no, seems that most would rather lap up Spanish costa's or Canaries. Basically every other airport of similar size on the mainland has direct flights to Egypt, but not BFS. East Mid's is getting full winter Goa flights, Bristol and Glasgow I think are retaining Gambia winter flights, however BFS still in the Bally Ponsa mentality.
I know that sounds harsh, and I know not everybody is like that, but its annoying when you want to go somewhere a little different and have to travel through London.
Even our city break choices are dwindling with 3 out of 4 polish routes gone due to lack of demand it would seem, Budapest gone, Prague gone. Better pack my bags for Barcelona, again!!!
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BFS101
have to agree with your comments. I too get annoyed with all the duplication of carriers on routes and if Bhd get their extension, we will get more of the same with Fr.
You mention Greece, what about Turkey? Dalaman supports about 5/6 flights a week during most of the summer months and Bodrum 4/5 a week. We travel several times in the summer to Bodrum and some of those flight are via mainland and many others do the same. Would the airport and airlines not be better trying something like that? I'm sure they could get as good loads on say 2 weekly as they do to Bcn. What about Bulgaria, lots of people go there to ski and a great many go via the mainland. 12 of us did that last year and we are doing the same again next month, using Lgw. Now could one of the airlines not try that for the ski season instead of fighting for few pax to bcn? Even once a week.
True Blue
have to agree with your comments. I too get annoyed with all the duplication of carriers on routes and if Bhd get their extension, we will get more of the same with Fr.
You mention Greece, what about Turkey? Dalaman supports about 5/6 flights a week during most of the summer months and Bodrum 4/5 a week. We travel several times in the summer to Bodrum and some of those flight are via mainland and many others do the same. Would the airport and airlines not be better trying something like that? I'm sure they could get as good loads on say 2 weekly as they do to Bcn. What about Bulgaria, lots of people go there to ski and a great many go via the mainland. 12 of us did that last year and we are doing the same again next month, using Lgw. Now could one of the airlines not try that for the ski season instead of fighting for few pax to bcn? Even once a week.
True Blue
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totally agree with the BFS and Spain thing.. actually does annoy me but hey i suppose thats were they make their money... maybe once EZY gets some more of their airbus aircraft delivered they'll base 1 or 2 in BFS to do some more destinations..
EI should never have kept the BCN route over winter.. even the MXP flight has low numbers, they should have went to a ski destination... BFS-GVA (EZY flight) is doing very well at the minute, altho i think it started a week or 2 later this year?
EI should never have kept the BCN route over winter.. even the MXP flight has low numbers, they should have went to a ski destination... BFS-GVA (EZY flight) is doing very well at the minute, altho i think it started a week or 2 later this year?
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BFS101 you hit the nail on the head, I to think whoever bases a widebody offering something other than the Canaries will be on to a winner..I would love to know how many travelling through BFS are actually heading to more exotic destinations via MAN, LHR, LGW and even EWR.
Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that if the likes of Las Vegas, Dubai, Caribbean, Egypt etc were on offer departing locally both winter and summer it may attract some interest.
Maybe I'm wrong but I feel that if the likes of Las Vegas, Dubai, Caribbean, Egypt etc were on offer departing locally both winter and summer it may attract some interest.
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I wouldnt say no to and old Cancun flight once a week out of Belfast. Went last year and going again this year all with friends both occassions and have to travel via BHX/MAN/LGW.
Regards
Regards
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I think that part of the problem, and will probably get ripped apart for this, is the lack of inspiration from the travel trade and travel agents. If you pop into a travel agent and ask for a beach based holiday direct from BFS, they will tend to recommend traditional Spanish costa's or Canaries etc. To holiday in Greece or Tunisia, you have to tell the agent thats where you wanted to holiday, rather than it being suggested.
And to many of the general public they may not be accurately aware of the choice of destinations direct from Belfast, solely relying on the agents advice and recommendation. With the small population size of Northern Ireland, destinations will always be somewhat limited, but a bit of variation and diversification wouldn't go a miss.
And to many of the general public they may not be accurately aware of the choice of destinations direct from Belfast, solely relying on the agents advice and recommendation. With the small population size of Northern Ireland, destinations will always be somewhat limited, but a bit of variation and diversification wouldn't go a miss.