British Airways - 2
virginblue, I don't disagree with you, in principle, but I'd be interested to know which of the various fees/taxes you believe should be part of the fare and not an "extra".
If you'd asked me about 15 years ago I'd have been amazed that anyone even suggested splitting anything out. As far as I was concerned a fare included everything, airport taxes, baggage etc etc and that the only thing that might appear in the tax box was imposed by a government.
You could argue that governments (and particularly the US surprisingly) started the rot when they started imposing fees for customs processing and the like. Then we had (as I mentioned before) the demise of duty free in the EU the airlines got in the act with airport fees. In many ways I'd prefer that the price you see is the price you pay.
But, trying to put the other side of the argument why should the airlines have to put their price up just because a government decides to apply a new tax (APD?). And, why NOT make the fare purely for transportation and if you want to check a bag, have a meal, borrow a blanket then pay extra? Given that most people seem to be driven purely by the price of transportation surely that offers them the best value.
If you'd asked me about 15 years ago I'd have been amazed that anyone even suggested splitting anything out. As far as I was concerned a fare included everything, airport taxes, baggage etc etc and that the only thing that might appear in the tax box was imposed by a government.
You could argue that governments (and particularly the US surprisingly) started the rot when they started imposing fees for customs processing and the like. Then we had (as I mentioned before) the demise of duty free in the EU the airlines got in the act with airport fees. In many ways I'd prefer that the price you see is the price you pay.
But, trying to put the other side of the argument why should the airlines have to put their price up just because a government decides to apply a new tax (APD?). And, why NOT make the fare purely for transportation and if you want to check a bag, have a meal, borrow a blanket then pay extra? Given that most people seem to be driven purely by the price of transportation surely that offers them the best value.
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I think there's a distinction to be made between taxes such as GST/VAT and supplier fees. I think it is bunk that NAVCanada, airport and security fees are applied to tickets separately - they are a cost of business and SHOULD be levied equally irrespective of airline and preferably included in the ticket price. What passengers find in reality is that what are considered fees vary wildly between airlines operating on the same routes and it is verging on impossible to make easy comparisons (especially for those airlines which don't post tickets on sites like Expedia such as R***air)
We're all used to pulling up to a petrol station having seen the price posted on the side of the road. It would not be acceptable for the price to be 50% more than posted, yet that is the reality of reading posted fares on BA.com and then attempting to book them.
(@ Hartington - petrol stations in Canada produce a piechart of how much they get from a litre vs various levels of govt, producers, refiners etc - airlines are more than welcome to do this of course but the headline price should conform to what the traveller will pay)
We're all used to pulling up to a petrol station having seen the price posted on the side of the road. It would not be acceptable for the price to be 50% more than posted, yet that is the reality of reading posted fares on BA.com and then attempting to book them.
(@ Hartington - petrol stations in Canada produce a piechart of how much they get from a litre vs various levels of govt, producers, refiners etc - airlines are more than welcome to do this of course but the headline price should conform to what the traveller will pay)
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B.A. Borrowed time?
Putting this on Main PPRune listing as is maybe more 'MAJOR' than specific airline listing (with, sadly, limited specifics due to possible journo infiltration 
).
Despite recent IB group merger (and OneWorld, AA,QF networks) I have it on insider experience/knowledge/facts that the following WILL happen at BA in the next 12 months, irrespective of the current Icelandic Volcano scenario, strikes etc.,.....
1) BA/IB merger cannot go ahead due to BA pension-fund deficit. No possible EU assistance, as of today due to UK/EU deficit probs. A no-way Jose scenario, based on what we will see in coming weeks CON-LIB severe cuts.
2) Suspension of ALL BA/IB a/c orders in next few weeks....renegotiation.
3) WW plans to 're-invent' whole stucture of B.A. (and International Conglomeration) with substantial backing for new (T.B.A.) Company ops/streamlining. Main issue is to effectively 'default' on BA older pension burden....and to establish new reduced operating costs encompassing mainly cabin crew, subcontracting ground services/catering/maintenance as well to 'spider' setups providing those services.
It's not a case of 'IF', in info I have, talks are ready to be actioned in new CON-LIB (Govt. Sec. of State) pact and 'Emerald & Ruby' (for those that know how BA financing operates ;-) are in place to provide 'fluidity' in the venture to pastures new.
Can't say more, but this WILL HAPPEN and is 'fait-un-complet'.
No doubt all and sundry discussions will ensue! However, this has probably been a long-time coming. BA isn't going to wait until the bailiffs come in....what 'we' can see in the media just now is just a preamble of what will happen vis-a-vis Long-Haul ops for BA/IB group. Short Haul cross-funded is a separate issue and long-gone, realistically with EU feeder services (LoCo) already in place and ready to go on BA (Pact) 'dissolusion' (best word I can use to describe facts just now).
).Despite recent IB group merger (and OneWorld, AA,QF networks) I have it on insider experience/knowledge/facts that the following WILL happen at BA in the next 12 months, irrespective of the current Icelandic Volcano scenario, strikes etc.,.....
1) BA/IB merger cannot go ahead due to BA pension-fund deficit. No possible EU assistance, as of today due to UK/EU deficit probs. A no-way Jose scenario, based on what we will see in coming weeks CON-LIB severe cuts.
2) Suspension of ALL BA/IB a/c orders in next few weeks....renegotiation.
3) WW plans to 're-invent' whole stucture of B.A. (and International Conglomeration) with substantial backing for new (T.B.A.) Company ops/streamlining. Main issue is to effectively 'default' on BA older pension burden....and to establish new reduced operating costs encompassing mainly cabin crew, subcontracting ground services/catering/maintenance as well to 'spider' setups providing those services.
It's not a case of 'IF', in info I have, talks are ready to be actioned in new CON-LIB (Govt. Sec. of State) pact and 'Emerald & Ruby' (for those that know how BA financing operates ;-) are in place to provide 'fluidity' in the venture to pastures new.
Can't say more, but this WILL HAPPEN and is 'fait-un-complet'.
No doubt all and sundry discussions will ensue! However, this has probably been a long-time coming. BA isn't going to wait until the bailiffs come in....what 'we' can see in the media just now is just a preamble of what will happen vis-a-vis Long-Haul ops for BA/IB group. Short Haul cross-funded is a separate issue and long-gone, realistically with EU feeder services (LoCo) already in place and ready to go on BA (Pact) 'dissolusion' (best word I can use to describe facts just now).
Like I said MarkD I'd rather see what to pay than the evolving system of a very cheap fare and all sorts of extras. BUT... in some cases the airlines don't have a choice. There are items which governments impose which are not taxes but user fees and which the governments want shown in the T/F/C box. As I've said before the US is inclined to do this with APHIS fees, Customs User fees etc.
Lufthansa? No, no, no.
When the irish brothers come together again in a few weeks it will be the jetstarization of BA. Watch this space. The tried and true mantra of 'the airline doesn't make any money on x, y and z routes.........our low cost competitors have"x" % cost advantage blah, blah, blah and finally the old line, If we don't take these drastic measures to cut our costs, then we are doomed.
Jetstar Australia, Jetstar NZ, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Vietnam, Jetstar UK?
All part of the Qantas/BA Group if you like.
When the irish brothers come together again in a few weeks it will be the jetstarization of BA. Watch this space. The tried and true mantra of 'the airline doesn't make any money on x, y and z routes.........our low cost competitors have"x" % cost advantage blah, blah, blah and finally the old line, If we don't take these drastic measures to cut our costs, then we are doomed.
Jetstar Australia, Jetstar NZ, Jetstar Asia, Jetstar Vietnam, Jetstar UK?
All part of the Qantas/BA Group if you like.
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My Lord...
...It took LH a bit more than three years to have the old Swissair cultur and the renitent Crossair drivers trashed under CEO Andre Dose and another three years of a subtile crossborder corporate construction to finally get the full ownership... But it worked, at last.
At what point do Lufthansa come in?
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Just seen a Sky News report with the usual bunch of no hopers out on strike with ratherlewd placards such as 'get yer willie out'. I've witnessed this spectacle several times on national news bulletins and too be honest do the BASSA members really think the public will take them and their cause seriously with comments like that? It's playing right into the management hands.
Someone sonewhere thinks that those placards are funny but it's actually turning them into a joke and hopefully the public against them. I have no symopathy for the BA CC on strike as I've had to work with them in the past.
Stand your ground Mr Walsh!!
Someone sonewhere thinks that those placards are funny but it's actually turning them into a joke and hopefully the public against them. I have no symopathy for the BA CC on strike as I've had to work with them in the past.
Stand your ground Mr Walsh!!
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Why do you think they want or even care about public support? All that they want is for Willie to sit down and negotiate. The thoughts of the public are furtherest from their minds I can assure you.
potkettleblack!
"Why do you think they want or even care about public support? All that they want is for Willie to sit down and negotiate. The thoughts of the public are furtherest (?) from their minds I can assure you."
............................................................ ...........................
You are 100% correct (!!)
the strikers dont care a damn about the public.
self interest and extreme political views are all that are on their agenda!!!
Now WW , thats a different matter.
The board have a company to run and the tail wants to wag the dog.
CC /BASSA have been getting away with it for years.
At some point a line must be drawn..
"Why do you think they want or even care about public support? All that they want is for Willie to sit down and negotiate. The thoughts of the public are furtherest (?) from their minds I can assure you."
............................................................ ...........................
You are 100% correct (!!)
the strikers dont care a damn about the public.
self interest and extreme political views are all that are on their agenda!!!
Now WW , thats a different matter.
The board have a company to run and the tail wants to wag the dog.
CC /BASSA have been getting away with it for years.
At some point a line must be drawn..
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Cabin Crew - what a farce!
Watching the performance of the striking cabin crew on TV makes me wince. Where on earth did BA find these loutish, grim looking bunch of morons. I must say that WW needs to give his HR people a good lesson on what calibre of employee they wish to have. BA is still a magnificent airline but its CC - and I fly hundreds of thousands of miles - need a radical change. I just hope that this strike sorts the wheat from the chaff and BA can get somewhere near these bunch of girls. The best there has ever been.
YouTube - British Caledonian - Caledonian Girls - 1983 - UK Advert
If they are really careful and selective they could just make it.
YouTube - British Caledonian - Caledonian Girls - 1983 - UK Advert
If they are really careful and selective they could just make it.
interpreter
"Watching the performance of the striking cabin crew on TV makes me wince. Where on earth did BA find these loutish, grim looking bunch of morons."
Agree 100%
On problem is these are , in the main, long term employees, who think they have a divine right to dictate their terms and conditions, get what they want, or else they go on strike.
They do not live in the real world like the rest of us mere mortals.
Historically , BA have given in to their/union demands , every time, and now it is difficult to change the belief that they will win, they have in the past, hence the current situation.
BA, and the travelling customer, will have to suffer short term to get rid of these totally selfish morons who refuse to accept the reality of working life of the world today.
We all have to take cuts, pain, except for them.. !
Agree 100%
On problem is these are , in the main, long term employees, who think they have a divine right to dictate their terms and conditions, get what they want, or else they go on strike.
They do not live in the real world like the rest of us mere mortals.
Historically , BA have given in to their/union demands , every time, and now it is difficult to change the belief that they will win, they have in the past, hence the current situation.
BA, and the travelling customer, will have to suffer short term to get rid of these totally selfish morons who refuse to accept the reality of working life of the world today.
We all have to take cuts, pain, except for them.. !
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I read all this and cannot but agree but I am under the impression that the attitude is not one unique to BA CC but of Britain PLC where I cannot think of any companies that give a toss for cutomers, if they do it is merely a veneer.
Our government certainly does not give a toss for us either but spends it's time concerned with those that seem to contribute little?
Our government certainly does not give a toss for us either but spends it's time concerned with those that seem to contribute little?
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HZ123 Agree about the veneer but don't you think the comments on the government " not giving a toss" are a little premature being they have only been in power a few days?
Come on everyone lets take this chance to talk UK PLC up not down as usual. As for the BA strikers let them stay on strike for ever - without pay of course - start with a base programme of 70% that you can crew and build back up from there. They will not stop me booking BA again.
Come on everyone lets take this chance to talk UK PLC up not down as usual. As for the BA strikers let them stay on strike for ever - without pay of course - start with a base programme of 70% that you can crew and build back up from there. They will not stop me booking BA again.