BIRMINGHAM - 4
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Middle england
Posts: 539
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pax Impact
I would say that Olton Pete in the absence of official figures would be close. It depends on several things inmy opinion.
It depends on which routes operate and which do not.
Spanish routes are covered by Ryanair and Monarch. If they put additional flights on in the peak season when demand is high not a lot there, the brand loyalty to Baby or any airline I would say is low, it is price driven, with less flights the price may increase leaving some pax to look elsewhere.
Domestic wise I bet they keep the Belfast, Glasgow and Edi if they go again not a lot lost as BE are the masters on these routes, same with Aberdeen which is regional at the moment, if GLA and EDI go regional with a better schedule again not a lot of differance and may be better.
That leaves Barcelona, operating from EMA, so no chance of that running and Amsterdam which is mostly point to point traffic, again increased costs but KLM are available. Prauge ditto Ryaniar
Knock is operating from EMA so I bet it wont from BHX but I would be suprised if someone dint take that up.
The other summer French routes I think not a chance of operating but not a lot of difference there.
I wonder what they will do with the large dedicated Baby check in area, that wont be needed and will become a waste of space for 9 or so flights a day max.
If the aircraft flew 4 sectors per day thats 32 arrivals/departures missing which will affect the ground staff more than anyone else, and of course thats the same number of movements revenue lost to the airport.
Olton Pete over to you.
Centre cities
It depends on which routes operate and which do not.
Spanish routes are covered by Ryanair and Monarch. If they put additional flights on in the peak season when demand is high not a lot there, the brand loyalty to Baby or any airline I would say is low, it is price driven, with less flights the price may increase leaving some pax to look elsewhere.
Domestic wise I bet they keep the Belfast, Glasgow and Edi if they go again not a lot lost as BE are the masters on these routes, same with Aberdeen which is regional at the moment, if GLA and EDI go regional with a better schedule again not a lot of differance and may be better.
That leaves Barcelona, operating from EMA, so no chance of that running and Amsterdam which is mostly point to point traffic, again increased costs but KLM are available. Prauge ditto Ryaniar
Knock is operating from EMA so I bet it wont from BHX but I would be suprised if someone dint take that up.
The other summer French routes I think not a chance of operating but not a lot of difference there.
I wonder what they will do with the large dedicated Baby check in area, that wont be needed and will become a waste of space for 9 or so flights a day max.
If the aircraft flew 4 sectors per day thats 32 arrivals/departures missing which will affect the ground staff more than anyone else, and of course thats the same number of movements revenue lost to the airport.
Olton Pete over to you.
Centre cities
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pete i wouldnt be part of the so called management team as long as I had a hole in my .... just a line pilot.
The cutting of routes from BHX last year was attributed to BHX development routes not working explained by management as the city destinations.
My point was that BHX has never achieved what the company set out to achieve, this is now reinforced by further cuts this year. When you look at the base reductions cardiff took the least hit folowed by Man, BHX was slaughted.
Union talk of possibly retaining a frame keep thirteen a/c, EMA or BHX bound we will see, thats even if it does stay.
EMA has always been quoted by management as the most profitable base. they themselves probably know the exact figures but they must have an idea of what makes what in order to steer the business(i use the word steer loosely)
When all said and done I wish all the bases were kept as they are, but reality is the business is failing in its current form, baby crews have had a bad two years.
Regards
sjm
The cutting of routes from BHX last year was attributed to BHX development routes not working explained by management as the city destinations.
My point was that BHX has never achieved what the company set out to achieve, this is now reinforced by further cuts this year. When you look at the base reductions cardiff took the least hit folowed by Man, BHX was slaughted.
Union talk of possibly retaining a frame keep thirteen a/c, EMA or BHX bound we will see, thats even if it does stay.
EMA has always been quoted by management as the most profitable base. they themselves probably know the exact figures but they must have an idea of what makes what in order to steer the business(i use the word steer loosely)
When all said and done I wish all the bases were kept as they are, but reality is the business is failing in its current form, baby crews have had a bad two years.
Regards
sjm
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Solihull
Age: 60
Posts: 3,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Baby
sjm
Cheers for the reply, I remember at the time I put the question out re the
Madrid, Rome & Lisbon as the press release was obviously just for public comsumption and I never really got much of a reply.
Usually when flights are pulled there is a very clear pattern with reduced
frequencies and raising of fares etc etc etc. However in this instance there seemed little evidence that this happened (really, I was checking).
However with FR flooding the market with seats from BHX at low prices
I assume something had to be done but there seemed to be more likely candidates at the time but as ever when you are on the outside you never get the full picture.
bread&water
The last time I checked the timetable they had not removed the chopped flights and they were still taking bookings for 20 aircraft (is that ethical?), which makes it difficult to give an accurate figure.
My guess for a summer season would be a loss of 275000 - 300000 pax.
On average bhx had 12 flights a day in April, May & October and 15 during
the peak months split between 2 x 735's and 3 x 733's (very crude est).
I make that about 830000 seats down to 500000 based on two aircraft
operating 8 sectors a day all summer with 149 seaters.
As C C has said most routes are covered by others and if BHX is lucky and say BMIR take on EDI & GLA (although the parent is dumping all its 50 seaters) and FR & ZB add some AGP's, PMI's and ALC's (if Baby chop them) then the loss might be less than first thought.
At worse I would say 300000 perhaps as low as 250000 and even less
if FR base aircraft 5 and 6 but who knows what their plans are.
It also appears that one of the Thomson aircraft is downgraded pax
wise to 73H from 757 for summer as well, which also will not help.
Pete
Cheers for the reply, I remember at the time I put the question out re the
Madrid, Rome & Lisbon as the press release was obviously just for public comsumption and I never really got much of a reply.
Usually when flights are pulled there is a very clear pattern with reduced
frequencies and raising of fares etc etc etc. However in this instance there seemed little evidence that this happened (really, I was checking).
However with FR flooding the market with seats from BHX at low prices
I assume something had to be done but there seemed to be more likely candidates at the time but as ever when you are on the outside you never get the full picture.
bread&water
The last time I checked the timetable they had not removed the chopped flights and they were still taking bookings for 20 aircraft (is that ethical?), which makes it difficult to give an accurate figure.
My guess for a summer season would be a loss of 275000 - 300000 pax.
On average bhx had 12 flights a day in April, May & October and 15 during
the peak months split between 2 x 735's and 3 x 733's (very crude est).
I make that about 830000 seats down to 500000 based on two aircraft
operating 8 sectors a day all summer with 149 seaters.
As C C has said most routes are covered by others and if BHX is lucky and say BMIR take on EDI & GLA (although the parent is dumping all its 50 seaters) and FR & ZB add some AGP's, PMI's and ALC's (if Baby chop them) then the loss might be less than first thought.
At worse I would say 300000 perhaps as low as 250000 and even less
if FR base aircraft 5 and 6 but who knows what their plans are.
It also appears that one of the Thomson aircraft is downgraded pax
wise to 73H from 757 for summer as well, which also will not help.
Pete
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Noordwest
Posts: 172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is this evidence of what MAN described as FR 'trashing' the market. It would seem that people will travel to wherever the can find the cheapest fares, so that given a choice of an £80 fare to LIS and an FR £40 fare to Olbia, Olbia wins.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Solihull
Age: 60
Posts: 3,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
WW v FR
Hi jongeman
I suppose there is something to be said for that reasoning although in this case there were other factors such as G-OGBD & G-BYZJ (I think) were
leaving the fleet and something had to give.
With FR moving in, baby took the decision to reduce the BHX to 5 from 7/8. All that was a surprise looking at it from the outside was FCO, MAD etc were stopped. At the time they were flying 737's to Belfast with
60 - 70 pax at £25 fares (even fairly close to the departure date).
To be fair they did not let that carry on for too long and they seem
to have recovered some of the market share and fares have crept up.
The downside for BHX this winter is that FR have also cut back
by downgrading the base to three aircraft although with trading
conditions as they are, that is of no surprise.
Of course the other thing to take into account Ryanair have not
rushed to open CIA - BHX and MAD-BHX which also might give us
a few clues why WW gave up on these routes. Although I have to
say I am shocked at FR not taking them on considering some of the
no-hope destinations they have tried.
Pete
I suppose there is something to be said for that reasoning although in this case there were other factors such as G-OGBD & G-BYZJ (I think) were
leaving the fleet and something had to give.
With FR moving in, baby took the decision to reduce the BHX to 5 from 7/8. All that was a surprise looking at it from the outside was FCO, MAD etc were stopped. At the time they were flying 737's to Belfast with
60 - 70 pax at £25 fares (even fairly close to the departure date).
To be fair they did not let that carry on for too long and they seem
to have recovered some of the market share and fares have crept up.
The downside for BHX this winter is that FR have also cut back
by downgrading the base to three aircraft although with trading
conditions as they are, that is of no surprise.
Of course the other thing to take into account Ryanair have not
rushed to open CIA - BHX and MAD-BHX which also might give us
a few clues why WW gave up on these routes. Although I have to
say I am shocked at FR not taking them on considering some of the
no-hope destinations they have tried.
Pete
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Nuneaton / Fuerteventura
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lack of marketing skills
I have never understood BHX management and their complete lack of marketing skills. I run a business in the Cannock / Hednesford area and I would hazard a guess that eight out of ten people who live in that area fly from Manchester.
Only the other day a customer said he was off to Brisbane to see his brother. When I asked where he was flying from he said probably Heathrow. When I asked why he didn't chose BHX he said he did not realize he could fly from there.
I even emailed BHX about the total lack of awareness in the area and of course I never got a reply. And we wonder why airlines are moving out.
Cannock is about 30 miles from BHX.
Only the other day a customer said he was off to Brisbane to see his brother. When I asked where he was flying from he said probably Heathrow. When I asked why he didn't chose BHX he said he did not realize he could fly from there.
I even emailed BHX about the total lack of awareness in the area and of course I never got a reply. And we wonder why airlines are moving out.
Cannock is about 30 miles from BHX.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 647
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To Potash
Hello potash. speaking a s someone who grew up and worked in the West Mids for the first 40 years of my life - Your comments ring true. The marketing of the facility was always poor - According to their Official Web Site News an outside company has reciently been recruited to the develop the route structure. Perhaps the management can do the same for marketing the place locally. Are RYR destructive ecomomically ? -I wish I knew.
CAT III
CAT III
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Solihull
Age: 60
Posts: 3,324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Prague
adam12345
It is suspended for the peak period as the aircraft goes to the Med,
it happened this summer.
It is bookable again from the 12th or 13th Sept 2010.
However how much longer it will be bookable I can't say and it might
not even last until the July.
I assume baby is trying to sort revised slots for their remaining aircraft
as they are still selling flights based on 19-20 aircraft throughout the fleet.
I assume their IT staff are over-worked with the impending changes
(assuming it is not out-sourced) as this is the only excuse for selling flights that will not exist 5 days after the announcement.
To be fair most LOCO's are guilty of this and it must be more difficult than one thinks.
Pete
It is suspended for the peak period as the aircraft goes to the Med,
it happened this summer.
It is bookable again from the 12th or 13th Sept 2010.
However how much longer it will be bookable I can't say and it might
not even last until the July.
I assume baby is trying to sort revised slots for their remaining aircraft
as they are still selling flights based on 19-20 aircraft throughout the fleet.
I assume their IT staff are over-worked with the impending changes
(assuming it is not out-sourced) as this is the only excuse for selling flights that will not exist 5 days after the announcement.
To be fair most LOCO's are guilty of this and it must be more difficult than one thinks.
Pete
Last edited by OltonPete; 7th Nov 2009 at 22:53. Reason: spelling
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 1,058
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aer Olympic?
Seems to be planning flights from BHX-ARN with onward connections to cities in Erbil and Sulaimanayiah, flights bookable on their web page and you can book through to Iraq even though plane change in ARN....flights weekly on Tues from BHX and Wed from ARN (0150 departure). Does anyone know more about this, it sounds just a tad flimsy to me? I have a feeling it is yet another paper airline of the kind that BHX seems so good at attracting (instead of actual airlines like Easyjet or Jet2) 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tracey Island
Posts: 1,496
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have never understood BHX management and their complete lack of marketing skills. I run a business in the Cannock / Hednesford area and I would hazard a guess that eight out of ten people who live in that area fly from Manchester.
Only the other day a customer said he was off to Brisbane to see his brother. When I asked where he was flying from he said probably Heathrow. When I asked why he didn't chose BHX he said he did not realize he could fly from there.
I even emailed BHX about the total lack of awareness in the area and of course I never got a reply. And we wonder why airlines are moving out.
Cannock is about 30 miles from BHX.
Only the other day a customer said he was off to Brisbane to see his brother. When I asked where he was flying from he said probably Heathrow. When I asked why he didn't chose BHX he said he did not realize he could fly from there.
I even emailed BHX about the total lack of awareness in the area and of course I never got a reply. And we wonder why airlines are moving out.
Cannock is about 30 miles from BHX.
What they need is the Cillit Bang or Safetstyle double glazing type adds to suit the new bottom of the barrel type industry. These should be played constantly in all target areas until it's in ingrained into the mind that from BHX you can fly anywhere. Even if it's not direct it will probably be quicker than a trek to LHR.
Having said that, it's not the reason airlines are moving out...More to do with the economic hicup!!
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: not entirely sure.....
Posts: 188
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aer Olympic
According to their website they also do flights from Gatwick via Stockholm to Iraq. There should be a flight today using a Viking aircraft under the callsign 4P671.
A quick search of BAA Gatwick departures shows Viking671 to Stockholm at 12:30
Do any of the LGW guys know if this flight is going to operate today? Or will it quietly disappear from the departures board.....
This lot might actually start flights from BHX, there is a demand (not sure how large though) because you see quite a few Kurds coming through on the TK flight who started off in Northern Iraq. The more important question is, will they last or do a Hellenic Imperial?
S78
A quick search of BAA Gatwick departures shows Viking671 to Stockholm at 12:30
Do any of the LGW guys know if this flight is going to operate today? Or will it quietly disappear from the departures board.....
This lot might actually start flights from BHX, there is a demand (not sure how large though) because you see quite a few Kurds coming through on the TK flight who started off in Northern Iraq. The more important question is, will they last or do a Hellenic Imperial?
S78
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 262
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FR
OP -quote "However with FR flooding the market with seats from BHX at low prices"
Maybe - but a £7.49 each way to GRO in June mid week ended up at £112 return including luggage,pb and cc fee.
Maybe - but a £7.49 each way to GRO in June mid week ended up at £112 return including luggage,pb and cc fee.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: BHX
Age: 48
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Article from the B'ham Post, not sure whether to take it as Good: the behind the scenes donkey work is getting done or, Bad: they are struggling and this is just the start of the excuses. After all, this is Birmingham 
Birmingham International Airport's cash plea to AWM
Nov 9 2009 by Alun Thorne, Birmingham Post
A row is brewing between Birmingham International Airport (BIA) executives and regional development agency Advantage West Midlands over a crucial £25 million contribution to the airport’s expansion plans.
BIA has won planning approval for a 400-metre extension to its runway which is crucial if the West Midlands is to secure long haul flights in order to compete with other regions.
The longer runway would allow non-stop flights from Birmingham to destinations such as China and the West Coast of America, it would enable the airport to double its passenger capacity, create up to 7,000 new jobs and boost development of the M40 high technology business corridor, it is claimed.
But the £130 million runway extension cannot go ahead until the A45 dual carriageway which skirts the airport is diverted.
AWM said in February 2007 that it backed the plans and agreed to provide £25 million towards infrastructure improvements, including changing the route of the A45.
An AWM press release dated February 1, 2007 was headlined “Agency gives £25 million commitment to Birmingham International Airport expansion”.
The release went on to quote the then AWM chief executive, John Edwards, as saying the agency had agreed to commit up to £25 million “if - and only if - the right application is submitted by the airport company”.
Asked by the Birmingham Post why the money had still to be delivered, AWM said: “The BIA runway extension.A45 relocation is a priority transport project for the region.
“Not only will it enhance the region’s economic performance, it will add to its appeal as a business location - and we are working with BIA and partners to take the project forward.”
However, the Post understands that frustrations are bubbling behind the scenes with AWM saying that it had not received a formal application for cash aid from the airport and the airport saying “we build airports - not roads”.
Solihull Council gave planning permission for the runway extension in April this year, a decision later ratified by the Government.
But while the project apparently gathers dust, other regional airports have been awarded millions of pounds in state aid to improve services.
Manchester has won £165 million for road improvements, Glasgow is getting £90 million toward the cost of a new rail link and Stansted has been promised £155 million toward infrastructure improvements.
Government figures have revealed that over the last ten years AWM has spent just £169,561 on airport subsidies out of a national total of more than £80.8 million - the lowest of any British development agency.
BIA chief executive Paul Kehoe said: “I can both sense and understand the regional frustration over the lack of progress with a runway extension.
“Although there aren’t shovels in the ground, behind the scenes we have already committed significant sums in project planning and buying land that we might need.
“Our people are eager to deliver a world-class gateway if the sums add up - that’s why we have just invested £50 million in our new International Pier which can even take the world’s largest airliner, the A380.
“We have planning consent to extend the runway, and there is general acceptance that a truly global gateway will generate economic activity and thus jobs in a region which, sadly, is unproductive compared with other parts of the UK.”
The fear is that without AWM contributing the cost of diverting the A45 the airport’s owners - seven West Midland local authorities, the Ontario Teachers’ Pensions Plan, Victorian Funds Management and an Employee Share Trust - will be unable to afford to proceed with the extension.
If that happened BIA would be confined to servicing only short haul flights and be unable to take advantage of the project High Speed Rail Link that would make it attractive to travellers who would otherwise use London Heathrow and Gatwick
Nov 9 2009 by Alun Thorne, Birmingham Post
A row is brewing between Birmingham International Airport (BIA) executives and regional development agency Advantage West Midlands over a crucial £25 million contribution to the airport’s expansion plans.
BIA has won planning approval for a 400-metre extension to its runway which is crucial if the West Midlands is to secure long haul flights in order to compete with other regions.
The longer runway would allow non-stop flights from Birmingham to destinations such as China and the West Coast of America, it would enable the airport to double its passenger capacity, create up to 7,000 new jobs and boost development of the M40 high technology business corridor, it is claimed.
But the £130 million runway extension cannot go ahead until the A45 dual carriageway which skirts the airport is diverted.
AWM said in February 2007 that it backed the plans and agreed to provide £25 million towards infrastructure improvements, including changing the route of the A45.
An AWM press release dated February 1, 2007 was headlined “Agency gives £25 million commitment to Birmingham International Airport expansion”.
The release went on to quote the then AWM chief executive, John Edwards, as saying the agency had agreed to commit up to £25 million “if - and only if - the right application is submitted by the airport company”.
Asked by the Birmingham Post why the money had still to be delivered, AWM said: “The BIA runway extension.A45 relocation is a priority transport project for the region.
“Not only will it enhance the region’s economic performance, it will add to its appeal as a business location - and we are working with BIA and partners to take the project forward.”
However, the Post understands that frustrations are bubbling behind the scenes with AWM saying that it had not received a formal application for cash aid from the airport and the airport saying “we build airports - not roads”.
Solihull Council gave planning permission for the runway extension in April this year, a decision later ratified by the Government.
But while the project apparently gathers dust, other regional airports have been awarded millions of pounds in state aid to improve services.
Manchester has won £165 million for road improvements, Glasgow is getting £90 million toward the cost of a new rail link and Stansted has been promised £155 million toward infrastructure improvements.
Government figures have revealed that over the last ten years AWM has spent just £169,561 on airport subsidies out of a national total of more than £80.8 million - the lowest of any British development agency.
BIA chief executive Paul Kehoe said: “I can both sense and understand the regional frustration over the lack of progress with a runway extension.
“Although there aren’t shovels in the ground, behind the scenes we have already committed significant sums in project planning and buying land that we might need.
“Our people are eager to deliver a world-class gateway if the sums add up - that’s why we have just invested £50 million in our new International Pier which can even take the world’s largest airliner, the A380.
“We have planning consent to extend the runway, and there is general acceptance that a truly global gateway will generate economic activity and thus jobs in a region which, sadly, is unproductive compared with other parts of the UK.”
The fear is that without AWM contributing the cost of diverting the A45 the airport’s owners - seven West Midland local authorities, the Ontario Teachers’ Pensions Plan, Victorian Funds Management and an Employee Share Trust - will be unable to afford to proceed with the extension.
If that happened BIA would be confined to servicing only short haul flights and be unable to take advantage of the project High Speed Rail Link that would make it attractive to travellers who would otherwise use London Heathrow and Gatwick
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Warwickshire
Posts: 1,058
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure what to think of the above article - maybe a flat news day? It all seems rather strange that the money to divert the road is dependent on the right application going in - I thought that is exactly what happened with the planning application? I'm still a bit sceptical myself about the actual real demand for flights from BHX direct to the West Coast US and China that this extension would permit (US Airways chopped after just a season), maybe better economic times will help
On a different note nice to see Banjul and Sal Cape Verde on the same arrivals screen amongst the seemingly declining range of European destinations.......perhaps long haul charter is the way forward??
On a different note nice to see Banjul and Sal Cape Verde on the same arrivals screen amongst the seemingly declining range of European destinations.......perhaps long haul charter is the way forward??
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 612
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A huge amount of spin in that article. Manchester Airport is not receiving £165M for roads - you could build a runway for that! I think the Birmingham Post is skewing or misinterpreting monies which have been earmarked for road improvements throughout Greater Manchester, some of which may benefit the airport's access.
As for the runway extension itself, can't see the case for it. MAN has struggled to establish a long-haul network despite having two 3000+ metre runways. BHX has a good enough runway for a limited long-haul network, which is all that can be reasonably expected. The constraints to long-haul growth at MAN/BHX/GLA are all rooted in the London-centric nature of the UK economy and it's world image.
As for the runway extension itself, can't see the case for it. MAN has struggled to establish a long-haul network despite having two 3000+ metre runways. BHX has a good enough runway for a limited long-haul network, which is all that can be reasonably expected. The constraints to long-haul growth at MAN/BHX/GLA are all rooted in the London-centric nature of the UK economy and it's world image.
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would suspect that the boeing 787 when it every gets into service will open up enougth longer routes from BHX without a longer runway. You can never do a massive range of long haul destinations from BHX as each route would carry too few pax to be viable.
Does anyone know what the current range for 787s from BHX are expected to be with the current runway length?
Does anyone know what the current range for 787s from BHX are expected to be with the current runway length?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 2 DME
Age: 54
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Roverman - true MA PLC isn't getting the money directly but the DfT is contributing £165m (roughly 50%) of the cost of the A555 Manchester Airport Eastern Link Road. Quite a significant amount of government assistance when you think about it...