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Marlowe
A common misconception there. I have seen data which indicates that whilst the E170 does indeed burn around 20% less fuel than an RJ85, don't forget that the RJ85 is a lot cheaper to purchase or lease and in my simple operating cost model I think there is a signficant economic benefit in favour of the RJ85. And don't forget that the RJ85 also carries 99 passengers in a single-class layout compared to the Embraer's (albeit I think the RJ85 is at 79 seats with BACF?). I think fuel needs to go up quite a bit more yet before the cheaper capital cost of the RJ85 is outweighed by the Embraer's lower fuel burn (and maintenance cost).
Cheers
A common misconception there. I have seen data which indicates that whilst the E170 does indeed burn around 20% less fuel than an RJ85, don't forget that the RJ85 is a lot cheaper to purchase or lease and in my simple operating cost model I think there is a signficant economic benefit in favour of the RJ85. And don't forget that the RJ85 also carries 99 passengers in a single-class layout compared to the Embraer's (albeit I think the RJ85 is at 79 seats with BACF?). I think fuel needs to go up quite a bit more yet before the cheaper capital cost of the RJ85 is outweighed by the Embraer's lower fuel burn (and maintenance cost).
Cheers
The only Embraer cetified for use at London City is the 135. The full list of certified aircraft is here :
London City Airport Consultative Committee - Aircraft
I too recall seeing the Embraer 170 sat on the Jet Centre ramp together with an Embraer Legacy (and pretty much filling it) some years ago The trials have obviously not been taken forward to completion.
London City Airport Consultative Committee - Aircraft
I too recall seeing the Embraer 170 sat on the Jet Centre ramp together with an Embraer Legacy (and pretty much filling it) some years ago The trials have obviously not been taken forward to completion.
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WHBM
Isn't that list a little out of date. Below is the text of a press release from Embraer dated 18 June last year. What actually needs to be done to turn steep approach approval into LCY approval or are they one and the same? If not, I guess Embraer will wait until they have a customer to close the loop. Airbus must already have done so for the A318 in view of BA's order for the aircraft which will operate LCY-New York?
Cheers
EMBRAER 170 JET GRANTED APPROVAL FOR STEEP APPROACH
Certification represents the final step towards operating at London City Airport
São José dos Campos, June 18, 2007 – The EMBRAER 170 commercial jet has been granted steep approach certification by the Brazilian National Civil Aviation Agency (ANAC) and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). The EMBRAER 170 is the first E-Jets family aircraft to achieve this operating capability, which represents the final step towards flying into/out of London City Airport (LCY). The EMBRAER 190 will be the second E-Jet to incorporate the same functionality, and its certification is on schedule for December 2008.
The steep approach procedure was developed especially for operating at LCY because its instrument landing requires a glide slope of 5.5 degrees, as opposed to the standard 3.0 degrees. The certification was achieved after a successful development campaign that also included dedicated flights into that airport. “The capability for operating at London City Airport is something that we have promised to the market from the very beginning of the EMBRAER 170 design,” said Mauro Kern, Embraer’s Executive Vice President, Airline Market. “It was a big challenge overcome by our development team. European airlines can now count on an important tool to fly to/from the high yield LCY market.”
The EMBRAER 170 will perform the steep approach using a software solution developed on the existing fly-by-wire system, which means improved flying qualities and control and reduced pilot workload, with less weight and maintenance cost. The range of the aircraft (over 750 nautical miles, or 1,389 km) covers all current routes operated from LCY and gives more flexibility to airlines to add new destinations in a high yield market.
The operation of the EMBRAER 170 at LCY has long been awaited by the airport and the airlines, because the jet fleet operating there is almost 15 years old and now has a replacement alternative in a state-of-the-art aircraft that offers reliability, performance, comfort and adequate economics.
Isn't that list a little out of date. Below is the text of a press release from Embraer dated 18 June last year. What actually needs to be done to turn steep approach approval into LCY approval or are they one and the same? If not, I guess Embraer will wait until they have a customer to close the loop. Airbus must already have done so for the A318 in view of BA's order for the aircraft which will operate LCY-New York?
Cheers
EMBRAER 170 JET GRANTED APPROVAL FOR STEEP APPROACH
Certification represents the final step towards operating at London City Airport
São José dos Campos, June 18, 2007 – The EMBRAER 170 commercial jet has been granted steep approach certification by the Brazilian National Civil Aviation Agency (ANAC) and the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA). The EMBRAER 170 is the first E-Jets family aircraft to achieve this operating capability, which represents the final step towards flying into/out of London City Airport (LCY). The EMBRAER 190 will be the second E-Jet to incorporate the same functionality, and its certification is on schedule for December 2008.
The steep approach procedure was developed especially for operating at LCY because its instrument landing requires a glide slope of 5.5 degrees, as opposed to the standard 3.0 degrees. The certification was achieved after a successful development campaign that also included dedicated flights into that airport. “The capability for operating at London City Airport is something that we have promised to the market from the very beginning of the EMBRAER 170 design,” said Mauro Kern, Embraer’s Executive Vice President, Airline Market. “It was a big challenge overcome by our development team. European airlines can now count on an important tool to fly to/from the high yield LCY market.”
The EMBRAER 170 will perform the steep approach using a software solution developed on the existing fly-by-wire system, which means improved flying qualities and control and reduced pilot workload, with less weight and maintenance cost. The range of the aircraft (over 750 nautical miles, or 1,389 km) covers all current routes operated from LCY and gives more flexibility to airlines to add new destinations in a high yield market.
The operation of the EMBRAER 170 at LCY has long been awaited by the airport and the airlines, because the jet fleet operating there is almost 15 years old and now has a replacement alternative in a state-of-the-art aircraft that offers reliability, performance, comfort and adequate economics.
I believe the list is up to date. LCY has its own unique approvals, separate to any other, which the press release doesn't quite bring out. Read it very carefully with this in mind and youll see how they never quite say they are approved at LCY.
LCY is not just about steep approach but departure performance as well, to clear Canary Wharf with an engine out, and when on easterlies to clear the proposed East London River Crossing bridge. The latter has not been built yet but will be about a mile downstream from the airport. on 28 finals/10 climbout.
LCY is not just about steep approach but departure performance as well, to clear Canary Wharf with an engine out, and when on easterlies to clear the proposed East London River Crossing bridge. The latter has not been built yet but will be about a mile downstream from the airport. on 28 finals/10 climbout.
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With BACF launching what is there first seasonal flying program ex LCY the routes being of course GVA and LYS. Would BACF think about launching summer seasonal services from LCY.
For instance I think a flight from LCY to AGP and FAO would probably do quite well in particular in Club. They could operate the services Thursday to Monday targeting those looking for some long weekend weekend sunshine.
Also has BACF loads improved on the ZRH now WX have pulled off the route? and does anyone know how the BCN, WAW and AMS route performing??
Personally I couldn't see the point in adding 4 flights a day to AMS. A route that already has loads of capacity in it.
For instance I think a flight from LCY to AGP and FAO would probably do quite well in particular in Club. They could operate the services Thursday to Monday targeting those looking for some long weekend weekend sunshine.
Also has BACF loads improved on the ZRH now WX have pulled off the route? and does anyone know how the BCN, WAW and AMS route performing??
Personally I couldn't see the point in adding 4 flights a day to AMS. A route that already has loads of capacity in it.
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BAladdy
It is all about Corporate mate - Corporates want LCY AMS flights, and if they have a global route deal with BA they want AMS services too.
A tough one for BA, because VLM and KLM have so many slots on the route, and it is common known fact in legal and financial firms that the VLM onboard product is better than BA's european sandwich and paper cup.
It is all about Corporate mate - Corporates want LCY AMS flights, and if they have a global route deal with BA they want AMS services too.
A tough one for BA, because VLM and KLM have so many slots on the route, and it is common known fact in legal and financial firms that the VLM onboard product is better than BA's european sandwich and paper cup.
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That's one thing - but not the only thing.
I flew BA a couple of weeks ago. Got a sandwich in a plastic wrapper. a ba.com paper cup, and on way home had a G&T served in plastic cup.
Flew VLM to AMS last week. Cabin interior far better than BA's tired old 146s, VLM have these smart new tan leather reclining seats. More inch leg room. Catering served on a tray including a yoghurt and fruit. Yes, coffee in a proper cup, and Bar service uses propper glasses.
And a real nice touch - basket of sweets served as aircraft door is closed, and the crew member at the front asked if they could take my suit jacket and hung it in the wardrobe at front of cabin.
I noticed VLM won Best Regional Airline Europe and Best Cabin Crew Western Europe in September's Skytrax awards. Personally - I can see why.
In no way am I saying BA are bad, but I personally feel that at the moment VLM are better, plus they have a high frequency on LCY AMS.
I flew BA a couple of weeks ago. Got a sandwich in a plastic wrapper. a ba.com paper cup, and on way home had a G&T served in plastic cup.
Flew VLM to AMS last week. Cabin interior far better than BA's tired old 146s, VLM have these smart new tan leather reclining seats. More inch leg room. Catering served on a tray including a yoghurt and fruit. Yes, coffee in a proper cup, and Bar service uses propper glasses.
And a real nice touch - basket of sweets served as aircraft door is closed, and the crew member at the front asked if they could take my suit jacket and hung it in the wardrobe at front of cabin.
I noticed VLM won Best Regional Airline Europe and Best Cabin Crew Western Europe in September's Skytrax awards. Personally - I can see why.
In no way am I saying BA are bad, but I personally feel that at the moment VLM are better, plus they have a high frequency on LCY AMS.
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and it is common known fact in legal and financial firms that the VLM onboard product is better than BA's european sandwich and paper cup
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Caudillo,
Appreciate your point Caudillo, and today has been a hairy day for the banks. The various merits of different airlines are rarely discussed in board rooms, it is normally Travel Managers in the big corps that mandate travel policies and negogiate with carriers, and it is these Travel Managers that are always looks to get the best product at the best fare.
Appreciate your point Caudillo, and today has been a hairy day for the banks. The various merits of different airlines are rarely discussed in board rooms, it is normally Travel Managers in the big corps that mandate travel policies and negogiate with carriers, and it is these Travel Managers that are always looks to get the best product at the best fare.
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Found this on a different forum;
==
BA's fully owned subsidiary airline BA Cityflyer is expected to announce in the next four to six weeks the findings of there renewal review. In a BACF communication to all his employees the BACF boss Peter Simpson wrote:
"Notwithstanding the current severe economic position, evaluations continue with the potential BAe RJ extension or fleet renewal options available to us. I do understand that rumours on this are abound, but I can tell you that no decision has yet been made. I expect that a decision ans approval will be forthcoming in approximately the next six weeks".
BACF based in EDI currently operate a fleet of 2 x RJ85's,10 x RJ100's and 2 x BAe146 leased from Flightline. They operate services from it's LCY hub to EDI, GLA, DUB, AMS, FRA, ZRH, BCN, MAD, NCE and WAW. They will also in December lauch seasonal ski services to GVA 5 x weekly and LYS 2 x weekly. Which will operate until the 28th March 2009.
They have just taken on a engineering hangar at EDI to help improve the aircraft reliability.
There has been many rumours about this renewal in the past. With the current economic problems BA might not want to splash out on new aircraft. So they may try to source more RJ85 aircraft instead. If the decision is taken to replace the fleet.The front runner to replace the RJ's if it goes ahead is a mix of Embraer 170 and 190 aircraft. In recent weeks and months representatives of Embraer where seen at BA HQ and BA managers where in Brazil visiting Embraer. It is thought BA want to expand the BACF fleet to ideally between 16 to18 aircraft. The order is believed to be likely to be made up of around 10 or 11 70 to 76 seater Embraer 170's and 6 to 7 Embraer 190's that will probably be configured to carry around 100 customers.
The 170 already has it's commercial jet steep approach certification. to enable it to operate into LCY and the 190 is expected to go for the same certification in December of this year. Further info available through link below
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CWU/is_/ai_n27279246
However there has also been many whispers that they might replace the fleet with a fleet of 15 to 16 DH8-400 aircraft.
I guess we will find out soon enough
==
==
BA's fully owned subsidiary airline BA Cityflyer is expected to announce in the next four to six weeks the findings of there renewal review. In a BACF communication to all his employees the BACF boss Peter Simpson wrote:
"Notwithstanding the current severe economic position, evaluations continue with the potential BAe RJ extension or fleet renewal options available to us. I do understand that rumours on this are abound, but I can tell you that no decision has yet been made. I expect that a decision ans approval will be forthcoming in approximately the next six weeks".
BACF based in EDI currently operate a fleet of 2 x RJ85's,10 x RJ100's and 2 x BAe146 leased from Flightline. They operate services from it's LCY hub to EDI, GLA, DUB, AMS, FRA, ZRH, BCN, MAD, NCE and WAW. They will also in December lauch seasonal ski services to GVA 5 x weekly and LYS 2 x weekly. Which will operate until the 28th March 2009.
They have just taken on a engineering hangar at EDI to help improve the aircraft reliability.
There has been many rumours about this renewal in the past. With the current economic problems BA might not want to splash out on new aircraft. So they may try to source more RJ85 aircraft instead. If the decision is taken to replace the fleet.The front runner to replace the RJ's if it goes ahead is a mix of Embraer 170 and 190 aircraft. In recent weeks and months representatives of Embraer where seen at BA HQ and BA managers where in Brazil visiting Embraer. It is thought BA want to expand the BACF fleet to ideally between 16 to18 aircraft. The order is believed to be likely to be made up of around 10 or 11 70 to 76 seater Embraer 170's and 6 to 7 Embraer 190's that will probably be configured to carry around 100 customers.
The 170 already has it's commercial jet steep approach certification. to enable it to operate into LCY and the 190 is expected to go for the same certification in December of this year. Further info available through link below
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CWU/is_/ai_n27279246
However there has also been many whispers that they might replace the fleet with a fleet of 15 to 16 DH8-400 aircraft.
I guess we will find out soon enough
==
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Hi Dutchbird-757
You don't say from which 'different forum' your quote is taken, nor from what date "the next six weeks" runs. However, and I admit speaking with absolutely no inside info, I suspect the clue to the future is given in this passage:
In the current economic circumstances, BA are, very sensibly, blocking any major capital expenditure. The near future is looking pretty grim. This is absolutely not the time to be splashing the cash!
With respect to the E190: How many seats it 'normally' flies with is more significant than how BACF choose to configure it. (Normally 98 I believe?)
Of course, extending the RJ100 in service also comes with some crewing issues for BA to resolve!
You don't say from which 'different forum' your quote is taken, nor from what date "the next six weeks" runs. However, and I admit speaking with absolutely no inside info, I suspect the clue to the future is given in this passage:
evaluations continue with the potential BAe RJ extension or fleet renewal options available to us.
With respect to the E190: How many seats it 'normally' flies with is more significant than how BACF choose to configure it. (Normally 98 I believe?)
Of course, extending the RJ100 in service also comes with some crewing issues for BA to resolve!
Last edited by Tandemrotor; 11th Oct 2008 at 18:28.
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Given that the RJ100s have only flown with Cityflyer Express and BA ( you know the progression ) and are only 10 years old, why do they have so many issues on reliability? Is the 146 series just a bit of a dog?
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Tandemrotor. I found this article on the airliners.net forum. It was published by (I pressume) a BA insider (credible source this guy/girl) on the 10th. So I guess that the period ends late NOV.
Yes, the fleet renewal poses a problem for BA in the current economical climate. But in my opinion not spending the money on a new fleet poses a bigger threat to BA (CF's) position and future @ LCY. Things will pick up again and we've gotta be ready.
Hope they are gonna be smart and go for the Embraer. Let's wait and see shall we.
Yes, the fleet renewal poses a problem for BA in the current economical climate. But in my opinion not spending the money on a new fleet poses a bigger threat to BA (CF's) position and future @ LCY. Things will pick up again and we've gotta be ready.
Hope they are gonna be smart and go for the Embraer. Let's wait and see shall we.
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DB
All power to your elbow.
However, we have just accepted volountary redundancy from 500 managers, and more will go. We are grounding aircraft, (737, 747, and 757) cutting back heavily on the flying programme, forward bookings have fallen off a cliff, and our major corporate customers are being hung out to dry. Oh, plus the share price has halved in 3 weeks, and we are 'apparently' losing £2.6 million per day.
Where do you imagine BA will find the money for a new fleet??
OK. I grant you. We continue to hose down our other wholly owned subsidiary (Open Skies) but how long can that survive??
As far as positioning BACF for the future is concerned, is there any other airline investing in E170/190 for LCY ops at the moment?
Or are they all sticking with what they've got?
All power to your elbow.
However, we have just accepted volountary redundancy from 500 managers, and more will go. We are grounding aircraft, (737, 747, and 757) cutting back heavily on the flying programme, forward bookings have fallen off a cliff, and our major corporate customers are being hung out to dry. Oh, plus the share price has halved in 3 weeks, and we are 'apparently' losing £2.6 million per day.
Where do you imagine BA will find the money for a new fleet??
OK. I grant you. We continue to hose down our other wholly owned subsidiary (Open Skies) but how long can that survive??
As far as positioning BACF for the future is concerned, is there any other airline investing in E170/190 for LCY ops at the moment?
Or are they all sticking with what they've got?