MANCHESTER - 5
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Hi Going Loco,
I take on board what you say. However, there is a particular problem with this thread (review previous postings at your leisure). Whenever a discussion occurs regarding a potential service from MAN, the usual suspects appear saying that no such service is required because a flight exists to destination XXX from Liverpool. I do not see reciprocal comments of this nature posted on the Liverpool thread (and nor do I want to). The catchment areas of LPL and MAN have an element of overlap, but the airline executives to whom you refer need to be aware that the markets covered by the two are very different (and I suspect that they are well aware).
Of course I acknowledge that airport catchment areas overlap each other; I have made past postings alluding to this fact myself. But as I said yesterday, we could just as easily insert into every discussion a pat answer that no new service is required from MAN (or LPL) to destination XXX because there is an existing service from Heathrow. We could extend this debate and suggest that Northern England requires no air services at all because services exist from London, and we know of plenty of airline planners who consider London and England to be synonymous. Of course, most of us outside London know differently, so diverting every sensible discussion into this cul-de-sac would become tiresome. And that is exactly the problem with the nature of many postings by Liverpool "fans" on this thread. The catchment areas of LPL and MAN overlap, but they are far from identical. The two markets are simply not interchangeable.
Permit me to quote an example, since apparently there is a need to do so. I live in a suburb of Manchester. I decide to book a flight to an airport in Continental Europe. Flights from both airports depart at 07:00 (not an untypical scenario). Let us play Devil's Advocate here and suggest that the Liverpool flight is £30 cheaper. OK, so all the posters on here who regard Manchester and Liverpool as interchangeable will propose that I book the Liverpool departure. But unfortunately, they are not interchangeable are they?
You see, for the journey to Manchester Airport I am looking at a short bus journey (or a walk if luggage is not an issue). But - oh dear - the journey to Liverpool Airport cannot be done in time for an 05:00 check-in! The train to from my local station to Piccadilly, the tram from Piccadilly to Shudehill, the Terravision bus from Shudehill to Liverpool Airport ... just not an option. So a taxi then (£60?). Or I could stay in a hotel close to Liverpool Airport overnight (£60?) and buy an evening meal (£20?). And then I must consider the cost of getting home again when I return. In addition to this, it is important to ask yourself if you think your time is worthless. I happen to believe that my time has value, and if I waste it on unnecessary additional commuting there is a cost to that also (but don't worry ... I won't go into quantifying it here!). So clearly, in my case, the argument that there is no requirement for a service from MAN to XXX because an alternative service exists from LPL does not hold water. When a direct service from MAN is not available, the option of an en-route aircraft change at a hub is usually preferable on the grounds of both cost and overall journey time. If I am a "bigot", a "territorialist" or just "preposterous" for pointing out this inconvenient truth then so be it. I call it being practical.
The fact is that a service from Liverpool will NOT benefit from the same catchment area as a service from Manchester, and the reverse is also true. There are very large numbers of people who are conveniently placed for one of these airports but not the other. I believe it was MUFCfan who quite correctly pointed out that folks in Oldham, Rochdale and Tameside do not consider themselves to be well placed for Liverpool flights and the same is true of many other boroughs.
I have great respect for the role of airline planners and I do comprehend their role (quite well as it happens). They are quite justified in launching flights from Liverpool when their research shows that LIVERPOOL'S catchment area can support them (taking account of the overlap with Manchester). But if they were to believe that a service from Liverpool is going to tap in to the entire Manchester catchment area then they are naive. Fortunately, in reality, I believe that those airline executives do understand that the two markets are very different, and that is why RYR and EZY have recently recognised that if they really want the Manchester market they will have to come here and serve it. Because - I say it again (because apparently I have to) - Manchester and Liverpool are not the same place and their catchment areas (which do overlap) are far from identical.
This is why discussions about Manchester services belong in the Manchester thread, discussions about Liverpool services belong in the Liverpool thread, discussions about LHR/LGW/LBA/BHX/EMA services belong in their respective threads (and yes, I know their catchment areas overlap with Manchester too). Otherwise, we can just shelve all sensible discussion and invite "fans" to promote existing services from their particular favourite airport whenever a destination is under discussion.
All the best. SHED.
I take on board what you say. However, there is a particular problem with this thread (review previous postings at your leisure). Whenever a discussion occurs regarding a potential service from MAN, the usual suspects appear saying that no such service is required because a flight exists to destination XXX from Liverpool. I do not see reciprocal comments of this nature posted on the Liverpool thread (and nor do I want to). The catchment areas of LPL and MAN have an element of overlap, but the airline executives to whom you refer need to be aware that the markets covered by the two are very different (and I suspect that they are well aware).
Of course I acknowledge that airport catchment areas overlap each other; I have made past postings alluding to this fact myself. But as I said yesterday, we could just as easily insert into every discussion a pat answer that no new service is required from MAN (or LPL) to destination XXX because there is an existing service from Heathrow. We could extend this debate and suggest that Northern England requires no air services at all because services exist from London, and we know of plenty of airline planners who consider London and England to be synonymous. Of course, most of us outside London know differently, so diverting every sensible discussion into this cul-de-sac would become tiresome. And that is exactly the problem with the nature of many postings by Liverpool "fans" on this thread. The catchment areas of LPL and MAN overlap, but they are far from identical. The two markets are simply not interchangeable.
Permit me to quote an example, since apparently there is a need to do so. I live in a suburb of Manchester. I decide to book a flight to an airport in Continental Europe. Flights from both airports depart at 07:00 (not an untypical scenario). Let us play Devil's Advocate here and suggest that the Liverpool flight is £30 cheaper. OK, so all the posters on here who regard Manchester and Liverpool as interchangeable will propose that I book the Liverpool departure. But unfortunately, they are not interchangeable are they?
You see, for the journey to Manchester Airport I am looking at a short bus journey (or a walk if luggage is not an issue). But - oh dear - the journey to Liverpool Airport cannot be done in time for an 05:00 check-in! The train to from my local station to Piccadilly, the tram from Piccadilly to Shudehill, the Terravision bus from Shudehill to Liverpool Airport ... just not an option. So a taxi then (£60?). Or I could stay in a hotel close to Liverpool Airport overnight (£60?) and buy an evening meal (£20?). And then I must consider the cost of getting home again when I return. In addition to this, it is important to ask yourself if you think your time is worthless. I happen to believe that my time has value, and if I waste it on unnecessary additional commuting there is a cost to that also (but don't worry ... I won't go into quantifying it here!). So clearly, in my case, the argument that there is no requirement for a service from MAN to XXX because an alternative service exists from LPL does not hold water. When a direct service from MAN is not available, the option of an en-route aircraft change at a hub is usually preferable on the grounds of both cost and overall journey time. If I am a "bigot", a "territorialist" or just "preposterous" for pointing out this inconvenient truth then so be it. I call it being practical.
The fact is that a service from Liverpool will NOT benefit from the same catchment area as a service from Manchester, and the reverse is also true. There are very large numbers of people who are conveniently placed for one of these airports but not the other. I believe it was MUFCfan who quite correctly pointed out that folks in Oldham, Rochdale and Tameside do not consider themselves to be well placed for Liverpool flights and the same is true of many other boroughs.
I have great respect for the role of airline planners and I do comprehend their role (quite well as it happens). They are quite justified in launching flights from Liverpool when their research shows that LIVERPOOL'S catchment area can support them (taking account of the overlap with Manchester). But if they were to believe that a service from Liverpool is going to tap in to the entire Manchester catchment area then they are naive. Fortunately, in reality, I believe that those airline executives do understand that the two markets are very different, and that is why RYR and EZY have recently recognised that if they really want the Manchester market they will have to come here and serve it. Because - I say it again (because apparently I have to) - Manchester and Liverpool are not the same place and their catchment areas (which do overlap) are far from identical.
This is why discussions about Manchester services belong in the Manchester thread, discussions about Liverpool services belong in the Liverpool thread, discussions about LHR/LGW/LBA/BHX/EMA services belong in their respective threads (and yes, I know their catchment areas overlap with Manchester too). Otherwise, we can just shelve all sensible discussion and invite "fans" to promote existing services from their particular favourite airport whenever a destination is under discussion.
All the best. SHED.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Unfortunately, I have to sit in the back. For me they have about the best connection and product out of MAN. Hopefully it is just a MX thing, and they don't think too hard about double daily 752's.
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Thanks Shed, eloquent as ever....
Loco,
Sorry, but it is a long quote.
This has been covered in the past. YES, what happens at Manc affects the 'Pool, and Leeds, and to a lesser extent EMA and BHX. I live in East Manchester....
and have flown from EMA and Man. Son ditto from LPL and LBA. We both have a car....Shed does NOT, hence his posting.
But we "seem" to be degenerating into a "slanging match" [aka ww contest]
So yes, please mention what othr a/fs are doing, but NOT XXX is doing this, and MAN aren't..na na nananaaaaa
As an aside, I would like to travel to work [MAN] by train...nearest station, Stalybridge, the earliest "Airport Train" leaves 20 mins after I start work, hence the car...although as a "Spotter" I did cycle to the Airport.....
, but that was in the '60s
we [really] do aim to please, ['cos] it [really does] keep the cleaners happy
Loco,
It is completely preposterous to suggest you can have a sensible discussion about some aspects of the route network at MAN without due consideration to what is happening with other airlines and other airports. You can pretend all you want that one airport serves one area and the other serves another, but no-one responsible for airline fleet deployment, route and revenue management or airport business development thinks like that. So why should anyone on here who wants to get a better understanding of how the business works choose to think in that way? In fact it is very odd behaviour as it seems that many posters demonstrate little if any experience of route development or revenue management but on other otherhand are extremely interested in what route planners and revenue managers have in store for MAN. If cabin crew, ATC, security, ground agents or plane spotters want to educate themselves on how and why airlines choose MAN or choose somewhere else then thinking "only mention MAN in the MAN thread" will get you nowhere fast.
This has been covered in the past. YES, what happens at Manc affects the 'Pool, and Leeds, and to a lesser extent EMA and BHX. I live in East Manchester....
and have flown from EMA and Man. Son ditto from LPL and LBA. We both have a car....Shed does NOT, hence his posting.But we "seem" to be degenerating into a "slanging match" [aka ww contest]
So yes, please mention what othr a/fs are doing, but NOT XXX is doing this, and MAN aren't..na na nananaaaaa
As an aside, I would like to travel to work [MAN] by train...nearest station, Stalybridge, the earliest "Airport Train" leaves 20 mins after I start work, hence the car...although as a "Spotter" I did cycle to the Airport.....
, but that was in the '60swe [really] do aim to please, ['cos] it [really does] keep the cleaners happy
Join Date: Dec 2005
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For the time being I think US will be keeping 1x daily departure from MAN with 330 ops the majority of the time as happens already. However, the 2x daily 757's do seem to work well for CO as they can offer increased flexibility for their pax with the choice of two daily departure times year-round..... whether US would want to go down this road in the future from MAN who knows?
Are DL still sending in 767s on the JFK run or have any 757's cropped up yet?
Are DL still sending in 767s on the JFK run or have any 757's cropped up yet?
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Does anyone know if there is anyway you can find out the number of PAX flying between two destinations regardless of routes.
I know the CAA stats show direct services but is there a way to find out the total PAX flying say MAN to JFK regardles of whether it is direct or via AMS FRA or LHR
Viscount
I know the CAA stats show direct services but is there a way to find out the total PAX flying say MAN to JFK regardles of whether it is direct or via AMS FRA or LHR
Viscount
Airport1
Join Date: Dec 2007
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This is my first post. Has anybody any thoughts as to if and when Cathay Pacific are likely to be re-introducing their MAN -HKG passenger services. I thought it would have been announced by now if a service was to commence this summer.
With Air China due start its Boeing 787-8 service to Beijing in 2009 will there be enough passengers to provide the two carriers with profitable services to this region.
If the Air China service starts first and it can feed passengers onto fligths to Hong Kong, Shanghi, and may be Tokyo and Osaka. This could delay Cathay,s service by a year or two.
With Air China due start its Boeing 787-8 service to Beijing in 2009 will there be enough passengers to provide the two carriers with profitable services to this region.
If the Air China service starts first and it can feed passengers onto fligths to Hong Kong, Shanghi, and may be Tokyo and Osaka. This could delay Cathay,s service by a year or two.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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I don't think Cathay are coming to MAN with a direct pax service again..... well not in the near future anyway. Probably more chance of Oasis Hong Kong to HKG and even that is unlikely to happen anytime soon.
Expect a scheduled service from Air China to Beijing before any Hong Kong passenger service gets off the ground......love to be proved wrong but don't think its going to happen
Expect a scheduled service from Air China to Beijing before any Hong Kong passenger service gets off the ground......love to be proved wrong but don't think its going to happen
Last edited by MAN Guy; 12th Jan 2008 at 12:01.
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Cannot see any reason why a direct service to Hong Kong, Beijing or for that matter West coast USA would not be launched within the next two or three years. Both have large economies and established or growing tourist sectors.
Neither is easily accesibile at this moment in time nearest hub for China with a flight from Manchester is Singapore, West coast USA take your pick from either mid -west or eastern sea board hubs.
With new generation 200 -250 seat airliners coming into service in the next few years these services should be profitable to operate from Manchester and it,s catchment area. The question is which operators and when.
Neither is easily accesibile at this moment in time nearest hub for China with a flight from Manchester is Singapore, West coast USA take your pick from either mid -west or eastern sea board hubs.
With new generation 200 -250 seat airliners coming into service in the next few years these services should be profitable to operate from Manchester and it,s catchment area. The question is which operators and when.
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Beijing will probably be launched as planned next year before any Hong Kong service or any West Coast USA service.
If Hong Kong did get launched I'd be surprised if it was Cathay Pacific. They like flying lots of freight in and out of MAN but are happy for their passengers to code-share through LHR on BA shuttles. Their last attempt at restarting a MAN pax service a couple of years ago ended abruptly over rights to their planned stop off at Moscow..... they seemed much more interested in the MAN-Moscow traffic than the MAN-HKG traffic hence they ducked out of a direct MAN route or a stop-over elsewhere when they hit difficulties over the planned Moscow stop-over.
If Hong Kong did get launched I'd be surprised if it was Cathay Pacific. They like flying lots of freight in and out of MAN but are happy for their passengers to code-share through LHR on BA shuttles. Their last attempt at restarting a MAN pax service a couple of years ago ended abruptly over rights to their planned stop off at Moscow..... they seemed much more interested in the MAN-Moscow traffic than the MAN-HKG traffic hence they ducked out of a direct MAN route or a stop-over elsewhere when they hit difficulties over the planned Moscow stop-over.
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they seemed much more interested in the MAN-Moscow traffic than the MAN-HKG traffic hence they ducked out of a direct MAN route or a stop-over elsewhere when they hit difficulties over the planned Moscow stop-over.
CX has never been able to sustain a non stop flt from MAN-HKG the market isn't there, it always had to tag with another port in Europe, i.e. SPL, CDG, FRA.
It may well return one day, it has never been officially completely struck off, it is looked at from time to time but due to lack of crews/equipment and MORE profitable routes it gets put on the back burner, don't forget CX believe that the UK is centred around London. Even when we flew there 75% of the company never knew we did.
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I agree Man Guy. Oasis will be the carrier to start if anyone does...and the quicker the better.
They offer lower fares and I'm sure would clean up out of M/cr.
Their website already shows M/cr as a "planned destination."
They offer lower fares and I'm sure would clean up out of M/cr.
Their website already shows M/cr as a "planned destination."
CX
I did use CX many times from MAN when it operated. i thought the loads were reasonable in both classes, especially as loads were restricted to xx number of pax out of MAN due to the stop overs. Obviously CX shift alot of cargo through MAN. There is a huge Chinese community in the region.
The last time I flew CX HKG-LHR there was about 100 pax on a B744.
An evening departure from MAN would connect with all their Australian flights, which the old services did not do. So there is good potential here.
However, I'd guess you'd see Air China pax flights many moons before you see a Cathay one, mainly due to the One World London Airways cartel.
The last time I flew CX HKG-LHR there was about 100 pax on a B744.
An evening departure from MAN would connect with all their Australian flights, which the old services did not do. So there is good potential here.
However, I'd guess you'd see Air China pax flights many moons before you see a Cathay one, mainly due to the One World London Airways cartel.
Join Date: Jul 2004
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Apparently there are to be more FR routes announced in the next few weeks. Looks like FR are going to get well established before EZY do at MAN.
Good news I say, some proper low fares from MAN! Already booked trips for MRS and GRO for £22 return! Bring it on!!
Good news I say, some proper low fares from MAN! Already booked trips for MRS and GRO for £22 return! Bring it on!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
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Proud to fly from Manchester
EZY are first with the local advertising - it's everywhere !
I have seen nowt all weekend but Bus Shelters, Buses & Road Side Ads with bright orange ads announcing EZY are "Proud to fly from Manchester".
I like the proud bit and reading between the line! EZY are chuffed at eventually getting their MAN dream.
I have seen nowt all weekend but Bus Shelters, Buses & Road Side Ads with bright orange ads announcing EZY are "Proud to fly from Manchester".
I like the proud bit and reading between the line! EZY are chuffed at eventually getting their MAN dream.