CORK - 5
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Cork Krakow was also generating City Break traffic from the Cork region before it was axed. Polish people are now as likely to switch to Dublin Krakow as travel to Shannon.
Great to hear that there's talks going on with 4 customers but Cork has delivered little in terms of new airlines since 2006 and that is now almost a decade ago.
Great to hear that there's talks going on with 4 customers but Cork has delivered little in terms of new airlines since 2006 and that is now almost a decade ago.
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I'm always surprised that CDG is not mentioned as a possibility for routing, daily flights to/from there, lots of options, including the TGV train.....
There are people who speak English there too and an English web site.
There are people who speak English there too and an English web site.
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There are options open to Aer Lingus other than an extra aircraft or a W from Dublin.
They could operate their SNN routes as Ws from Dublin, adding capacity to Cork. The fact that this isn't happening is a real sign of how far we are from Aer Lingus expansion in Cork.
They other possibility would be to operate an existing ORK route as a W from Dublin to create capacity. Options are limited here. LHR is out (apart from moving frequency from Dublin to Cork) because of slot restrictions. The same applies to the morning AMS service. That leaves Munich, Nice, Paris, Barcelona, Brussels and the evening AMS service as possibilities. Practically, if it happens, it'll be with one of the routes that is served 2-3 times weekly, not a daily one.
They could operate their SNN routes as Ws from Dublin, adding capacity to Cork. The fact that this isn't happening is a real sign of how far we are from Aer Lingus expansion in Cork.
They other possibility would be to operate an existing ORK route as a W from Dublin to create capacity. Options are limited here. LHR is out (apart from moving frequency from Dublin to Cork) because of slot restrictions. The same applies to the morning AMS service. That leaves Munich, Nice, Paris, Barcelona, Brussels and the evening AMS service as possibilities. Practically, if it happens, it'll be with one of the routes that is served 2-3 times weekly, not a daily one.
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There are lots of cities in Europe that are far easier to access from Frankfurt than Schiphol. The 11 hour gap between the EI841 and EI 845 makes the latter unattractive for many connections particularly when returning to Cork. Some would argue that a 3 hour bus journey from Dublin is more attractive than an 8 or 9 hour layover in Schiphol.
In general the ratio of short haul flights between Dublin and Cork should broadly reflect the population difference between their various catchment areas but that clearly isn't happening on many routes. Cork should also try and re establish it's links to some of the UK provincial cities such as Southampton, Exeter, Leeds, Cardiff and Durham. It's incredible that we were able to support a viable Cardiff service 50 years ago and we can't get one today when air traffic has increased by about 25 fold since those early days.
In general the ratio of short haul flights between Dublin and Cork should broadly reflect the population difference between their various catchment areas but that clearly isn't happening on many routes. Cork should also try and re establish it's links to some of the UK provincial cities such as Southampton, Exeter, Leeds, Cardiff and Durham. It's incredible that we were able to support a viable Cardiff service 50 years ago and we can't get one today when air traffic has increased by about 25 fold since those early days.
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A read of the Cardiff thread would suggest that it is even more troubled than Cork at the moment.
It's perhaps no great surprise that this route doesn't have any current operator.
It's perhaps no great surprise that this route doesn't have any current operator.
Join Date: Dec 2010
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Agree CWL route should be a new option to RE when they expand again, definitely as we have no Swansea ferry again that should create extra demand again - Also agree LBA and SOU have potential demand for RE.
Regards the AMS layover, I've actually never heard a complaint about it, follow a guy on the ''tweet machine'' as vinb says
who regularly travels ex-Cork for business travel nearly every second day - I asked him a few years back what did he think of the layover he answered me like this;
Arrive around 08:55
Out of the Terminal 09:20
Bus to Zuidas about 20mins
In work till 4pm
Go for something to eat with colleagues around 1hr 30mins
Buy a few bits in Amsterdam about 1hr
Bus from Central Amsterdam to Schiphol about 30mins
Arrive back into Schiphol 7pm
Layover of 1hrs 40mins or 1hr 10mins until boarding
So when you look at it like that you can see why its fine for most people, being rushed isn't very much appreciated by most business travellers either.
Dilemma for Aer Lingus at the moment is if they increase services to CDG they may affect loads on AMS/BRU particularly the latter which they are maintaining due to good yields at two weekly. Also the return of SNN-BVA may slightly drive down ORK-CDG yields again, they are so good though it has marginal affect to nil for Aer Lingus.
Regards Cork W services using Dublin aircraft it is possible, but the likes of Munich, Nice, Paris, Barcelona, Brussels and the evening Amsterdam service I'm afraid we won't be seeing them as W's any time soon bar maybe Nice. Simple reason, the schedule to the rest of them is very much early dep/early arr, late dep/late arr, midday dep/midday arr visa-versa. Nice possibly, maybe next season when they look at the performance of S14 - Would be great to have FCO back, even SXF/PRG or WAW. MAD definitely a contender if it used the late Monday/Friday current Nice slots. Regards KRK/WAW there could be very positive news about both those routes from October/November if everything works out ok.
Regards the AMS layover, I've actually never heard a complaint about it, follow a guy on the ''tweet machine'' as vinb says
who regularly travels ex-Cork for business travel nearly every second day - I asked him a few years back what did he think of the layover he answered me like this;Arrive around 08:55
Out of the Terminal 09:20
Bus to Zuidas about 20mins
In work till 4pm
Go for something to eat with colleagues around 1hr 30mins
Buy a few bits in Amsterdam about 1hr
Bus from Central Amsterdam to Schiphol about 30mins
Arrive back into Schiphol 7pm
Layover of 1hrs 40mins or 1hr 10mins until boarding
So when you look at it like that you can see why its fine for most people, being rushed isn't very much appreciated by most business travellers either.
Dilemma for Aer Lingus at the moment is if they increase services to CDG they may affect loads on AMS/BRU particularly the latter which they are maintaining due to good yields at two weekly. Also the return of SNN-BVA may slightly drive down ORK-CDG yields again, they are so good though it has marginal affect to nil for Aer Lingus.
Regards Cork W services using Dublin aircraft it is possible, but the likes of Munich, Nice, Paris, Barcelona, Brussels and the evening Amsterdam service I'm afraid we won't be seeing them as W's any time soon bar maybe Nice. Simple reason, the schedule to the rest of them is very much early dep/early arr, late dep/late arr, midday dep/midday arr visa-versa. Nice possibly, maybe next season when they look at the performance of S14 - Would be great to have FCO back, even SXF/PRG or WAW. MAD definitely a contender if it used the late Monday/Friday current Nice slots. Regards KRK/WAW there could be very positive news about both those routes from October/November if everything works out ok.
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They could operate their SNN routes as Ws from Dublin, adding capacity to Cork. The fact that this isn't happening is a real sign of how far we are from Aer Lingus expansion in Cork.
1 - T/A feed on all key European routes and something EI couldn't afford to lose.
2 - The whole schedule is designed to have good freq to meet needs of passengers for many reasons. This doesn't really apply to Cork apart from UK and AMS services.
3 - A330/321/320 on FAO and AGP in the mornings and anything apart from A320 would be to costly to operate a W on. On most other bucket and spade route not many others operate in the mornings.
4 - Very little operational room for change without cutting at DUB something they don't want to do.
Cork Krakow was also generating City Break traffic from the Cork region before it was axed. Polish people are now as likely to switch to Dublin Krakow as travel to Shannon.
Join Date: Dec 2010
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In relation to GVA next season, it wouldn't surprise me to see it go twice weekly, the demand for DUB-GVA flights with EI is through the roof for example, they started out planning they would operate a total of 9 weekly flights - They've had to increase that to 11 for the last month of the Ski season! (thrice daily on Saturdays/Twice daily on Fridays and Sundays and daily Mon to Thur). It's a pity EI launched ORK-GVA in the winter of '08 and never got the chance to give a year-round go as they did with nearly all routes pre '08 - Would have been interesting to see the demand level, plenty of Swiss come to Cork in the Summer and during the winter using the EI!
Yep!
FR may regret the move to SNN in time
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Rome (EI) gone
Gatwick (EI) gone
Warsaw (FR) going imminently
Krakow (FR) going imminently
"Ws" with Cork based Aer Lingus aeroplanes for Shannon: Faro last year and for summer 2014 Faro and Malaga.
Why is there any reason for Cork Airport to have any confidence in the future when you have companies like Aer Lingus and Ryanair that have so let down the public whom use or might use Cork Airport. Also, through out the winter aeroplanes have been left on the ground too long at times - on Wednesday afternoons in particular when an EI A320 and a Ryanair 737 are sitting on their backsides doing nothing.
No one is going to hoodwink me in thinking that they could not be despatched somewhere successfully and reasonably profitably.
Cork Airport is being codded up to it's eyeballs by Dublin based managements in EI and FR that have little or no interest in Cork whilst on the other hand a refreshed Shannon with it's debt scrapped is doing all it can in offering the sun, moon and stars to get in new traffic!
As for the remarks about a long day in Amsterdam after an overnight long haul flight waiting all day for the evening connecting EI845 flight to Cork why not trial a third ORK-AMS flight on Mon, Wed, Fri to see how it goes? Let it be done by KLM if necessary if EI are not interested and let that flight carry an EI codeshare.
Gatwick (EI) gone
Warsaw (FR) going imminently
Krakow (FR) going imminently
"Ws" with Cork based Aer Lingus aeroplanes for Shannon: Faro last year and for summer 2014 Faro and Malaga.
Why is there any reason for Cork Airport to have any confidence in the future when you have companies like Aer Lingus and Ryanair that have so let down the public whom use or might use Cork Airport. Also, through out the winter aeroplanes have been left on the ground too long at times - on Wednesday afternoons in particular when an EI A320 and a Ryanair 737 are sitting on their backsides doing nothing.
No one is going to hoodwink me in thinking that they could not be despatched somewhere successfully and reasonably profitably.
Cork Airport is being codded up to it's eyeballs by Dublin based managements in EI and FR that have little or no interest in Cork whilst on the other hand a refreshed Shannon with it's debt scrapped is doing all it can in offering the sun, moon and stars to get in new traffic!
As for the remarks about a long day in Amsterdam after an overnight long haul flight waiting all day for the evening connecting EI845 flight to Cork why not trial a third ORK-AMS flight on Mon, Wed, Fri to see how it goes? Let it be done by KLM if necessary if EI are not interested and let that flight carry an EI codeshare.
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Also, through out the winter aeroplanes have been left on the ground too long at times - on Wednesday afternoons in particular when an EI A320 and a Ryanair 737 are sitting on their backsides doing nothing.
No one is going to hoodwink me in thinking that they could not be despatched somewhere successfully and reasonably profitably.
No one is going to hoodwink me in thinking that they could not be despatched somewhere successfully and reasonably profitably.
Ryanair grounded something like 80 of its aircraft this winter just past because it couldn't make money flying them anywhere, on any day of the week. It appears many of its destinations can't aspire to being as lucrative as Cork on a winter Wednesday afternoon, but still, they could have made more of an effort, couldn't they?
I'm curious, though (having been in the ranks of the hoodwinked). Where should Aer Lingus have sent their plane to on Wednesdays?
Incidentally you may want to have a play with this useful little free Route Economics calculator - click on "Try the Demo". I tried plugging in an Aer Lingus A320 on ORK-FRA (just as an example) and it tells me that breakeven would be an 80% load factor at €80 yield. That's a substantial ask. Even if those numbers aren't exact, they're food for thought.
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What about the Aerlingus A320 that sits on the ramp for about 10 hours on Sunday's Now surely there's no logic to that particularly when the Cork based fleet are fully utilised most other days. Surely FRI-SUN on Brussells would have generated more traffic than FrI-Mon apart of courses from this past St.Patrick's Weekend.
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That one I don't understand.
At the very minimum, I'd have thought it would have made sense to have moved the weekly Tenerife flight to a Sunday when it would have attracted more passengers.
At the very minimum, I'd have thought it would have made sense to have moved the weekly Tenerife flight to a Sunday when it would have attracted more passengers.
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Cyrano, on Wednesdays the aeroplane could have been sent to Rome, Geneva, Barcelona, and dare I say it, Brussels!
It is not that hard, you know!
Is the EI pilot base in Cork permanent and pensionable (sorry, Jack) or is it a mix with contractors? A teensy part of me is cynical enough to wonder would EI be more content to leave the aeroplane on the ground on a Sunday rather than have to pay the flight crew double pay for working on Sundays but I will admit that is just me being a bit sicko!
As for Frankfurt why would EI try it from Cork if they feel sure the mugs from Cork would take the Midnight Bus etc and I guess it may also be a case where EI are protecting their loads and yield on Cork Heathrow and their feed with BA?
It is not that hard, you know!
Is the EI pilot base in Cork permanent and pensionable (sorry, Jack) or is it a mix with contractors? A teensy part of me is cynical enough to wonder would EI be more content to leave the aeroplane on the ground on a Sunday rather than have to pay the flight crew double pay for working on Sundays but I will admit that is just me being a bit sicko!
As for Frankfurt why would EI try it from Cork if they feel sure the mugs from Cork would take the Midnight Bus etc and I guess it may also be a case where EI are protecting their loads and yield on Cork Heathrow and their feed with BA?
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Agree unless there is a good bus service to SNN, they will pick DUB as most foreign nationals tend not to driver. FR may regret the move to SNN in time
Join Date: Oct 2005
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Tom, I very much doubt EI would leave an aircraft on the ground if they felt it could make money. I wonder if they had different plans, but bookings didn't work out as hoped? Certainly Wednesday afternoons would be a trough time for travel, both business and leisure.
I don't think the long layover in AMS is a reason to promote a FRA link, I can't see the route launching at greater than daily, certainly nothing like three times daily. An interesting way to do it might be a mix of, say, LX and LH one operating in the morning and the other in the evening, which may help with connecting flows. However, connections can only be part of the market, O&D is usually much more profitable.
Another factor in the Aer Lingus schedule is Regional. MAN and BHX kept 28 or 30 weekly rotations in the schedule, summer and winter, or half an aircraft. When RE took those over it probably changed the numbers on unit 4.
I don't think the long layover in AMS is a reason to promote a FRA link, I can't see the route launching at greater than daily, certainly nothing like three times daily. An interesting way to do it might be a mix of, say, LX and LH one operating in the morning and the other in the evening, which may help with connecting flows. However, connections can only be part of the market, O&D is usually much more profitable.
Another factor in the Aer Lingus schedule is Regional. MAN and BHX kept 28 or 30 weekly rotations in the schedule, summer and winter, or half an aircraft. When RE took those over it probably changed the numbers on unit 4.
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What? Where did this ill-informed statement come from? I think you'll find, from my own personal anecdotal view anyway, the opposite is the case.
Now is that the issue or are you more bothered that I said somehting bad about SNN and you felt the need to post?
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Most of the Poles that I work with would fly ORK_KRK. They will now fly from Dublin, they can get an Aircoach very handly, no such service to SNN. First BE bus from Cork will get you to SNN at 10.30am. FR flight to KRK departs at 07.30, return flight lands at 22.30. None of these guys have cars, so it will be the 01.00 coach to Dublin.
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Is the EI pilot base in Cork permanent and pensionable (sorry, Jack)
Regards the Wednesday and Sunday spare slots, there's a reason they have been left out - To ensure overall bottom line is protected for the base. Above all that's critical. It's all very well speculating to potential destinations they could operate to on those days, but behind every decision is economics and unless some of you are experienced in that area, it's obvious the proposed routes wouldn't work out. Bear in mind to all EI's schedule from Cork to particularly Winter Sun destinations are co-ordinated with travel agents.
Most of the Poles that I work with would fly ORK_KRK
