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CORK - 5

Old 20th Dec 2013, 09:02
  #4681 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ireland
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The ATR72-600 is comfortable, quiet with low vibration. I wouldn't mind travelling from Ork to Bru on one, and it certainly wouldn't take 3 hours. about 1:50/1:55 flight time which means a total scheduled time of around 2:10/2:15.
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Old 20th Dec 2013, 09:25
  #4682 (permalink)  
840
 
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At max speed on the shortest possible route and assuming neutral wind, flight time sneaks under 2 hours. Aircraft rarely operate at max speed on the shortest possible route and have to make allowances for a wind that is potentially against them.

ORK-EDI is just over an hour at max speed on the shortest route, but it's schedules for 1h 45m.

You might schedule an ORK-BRU flight in an ATR for 2h 40m, but you're not going to go down to 2h 10m.

People might get over the comfort factor for a direct flight, but the fact that you would get an aircraft to Bristol/Birmingham/Cardiff (where they don't even fly) and back twice in the time it takes to get there ruin the economics unless the yield is exceptional.

BTW Comfort isn't just seat comfort. You also need to allow that most pax will use the toilet on a long flight. You need more substantial food offering. etc.
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Old 20th Dec 2013, 09:31
  #4683 (permalink)  
 
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@ High Meadow, my memory is not flawed unlike your thinking. It was my only time flying on an F50, I think in was 1995,
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Old 20th Dec 2013, 19:59
  #4684 (permalink)  
 
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FK50

aer lingus....Sir, I stand corrected..
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Old 21st Dec 2013, 09:54
  #4685 (permalink)  
 
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Thank you.
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Old 21st Dec 2013, 11:50
  #4686 (permalink)  
 
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There was comment in the press that the Airport at Cork approached Aer Lingus to fly to New York twice weekly next summer when one of the 757s had a bit of down time at Shannon and Dublin. It is reported that EI were offered the first year's fees free of all charges. EI are reported to have turned down the approach indicating that any Cork servce would need to self supporting and should not impact their services at Shannon and Dublin Airports.

Now, how is this approach supposed to work? Is the Aer Lingus Shannon operation to New York and Boston supposed to be self supporting with only Clare passengers and, similarly, is the Aer Lingus Dublin operation from Dublin to New York, Boston, Chicago etc meant to be self supporting from Dublin only?

Obviously not in both cases for Shannon and Dublin.

So, why is Cork expected to be self supporting on any potential flight to North America? The rationale being applied to Cork seems to be of a much higer requirement than elsewhere in Shannon and Dublin and, is to my mind, discriminatory in quite a deliberate way.
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Old 21st Dec 2013, 12:44
  #4687 (permalink)  
 
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Tom

Self supporting ie that it does not affect SNN and DUB operation in anyway. The B757 have very little downtime and what they do have is for tech problem delays and maintenance. I don't think EI will ever go a cross the pond from ORK and management at ORK should know that when they can't get any sort of service to Europe sustainable from airlines if than EI and FR.

Nobody can expect an airline to take a hit to satisfy people of Cork.

When they finally decide to build the M20 possibly in next capital progane from 2016-2020 it will firmly crush hopes of a US service. Same could be said for NOC when in M17/18 opens in the next few years.
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Old 21st Dec 2013, 16:20
  #4688 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Angry

Tom - I suppose you don't want facts to interrupt your fantasy, but 'Self supporting' = able to be profitable without subsidies. When subsidies run out, EI Don't then want a loss making route. The Shannon 757 must also be self supporting, hence the argument over additional crew costs with the unions.

And downtime is there for a reason - to ensure schedule integrity.

Anyway, back to your fantasy of ATR to BRU.... Still aren't happy that RE invested in another aircraft for ORK - Yes, EI-R have taken the safe route of increased frequencies over new destinations. Looks like anything outside of the safe UK regional destinations and summer sun, alongside LHR, AMS and CDG isn't profitable from Cork or too much of a gamble....

I know you like to blame everyone from Shannon, DAA, IAA, the Mormons, Opus Dei, the Troika ( basically everyone rather than the citizens of Cork who don't fly enough at high enough yield to make routes really work), but some thanks should be given by you to RE for taking a risk on cork rather than your oh so typical 'not enough for me' diarrhea.
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Old 21st Dec 2013, 16:37
  #4689 (permalink)  
 
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Can people please read Copenhagen's post and actually understand where we are before posting, it would really show well in this forum.

isn't profitable from Cork or too much of a gamble....
I think them not being confident enough to make such gambles says it all really, demand is still far down on the high of 2008, but look I'm happy we've got anything, I'm just hoping this is the bottom of this spiral for over 5 years now, I'd rather increased frequencies over any new route, at least its a backbone then for the airport to have. For example the two weekly Brussels although down from 4 weekly in Winter 2012/2013, is being supported by those who campaigned for it, let's just hope they continue to because I actually don't hear them complaining about the twice weekly Monday and Friday service and its always rather busy lately.

840 knocks it exactly on the head when he points out the following in relation to sending an ATR to Brussels;

You're looking at a nearly 3 hour flight if you use it for Brussels, so aside from the comfort factor, you need to take into account that in the time it takes for a return trip, you could have squeezed in 2 return trips to the UK.
Look I'll say it again, can managment please focus on short-haul. We arent going to be able to support long-haul, can we just forget it for once and focus in the medium-term on what we are trying to keep and grow.
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Old 21st Dec 2013, 18:04
  #4690 (permalink)  
 
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Since when was profitability the bottom line for Aerlingus on the North Atlantic. They operated loss making services from Shannon to the US for many years with both 747's and A330's particularly during the Winter months.

I'd question if SNN-JFK and SNN-BOS are profitable even now. Hence the switch to 757's. The real test of EI's commitment to Shannon will come when the Government gets around to selling it's shares in the company.
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Old 21st Dec 2013, 18:11
  #4691 (permalink)  
 
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Since when was profitability the bottom line for Aerlingus on the North Atlantic.
I'd say 2008, when Aer Lingus T/A ops nearly faced closure at the time they were so loss-making, they have completely turned it around now and its there top earner, so why bother throwing money down the can at Cork. For god sake you'd think it was a 7hr drive to Shannon, its about 2hrs and even less then that some days - It's simple we should be focusing with what we have and hey guess what, we arent and its still declining.
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Old 21st Dec 2013, 19:07
  #4692 (permalink)  
 
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Ryan

As we all know SNN is the political airport of Europe if not the world, profitable or loss making routes don't come into it, all EI can do is try to make it work until the state sell there share when we will find out as you say. I can't see both JFK and BOS lasting year round on the B757 so time will tell.
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Old 21st Dec 2013, 19:28
  #4693 (permalink)  
 
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Shannon doesn't have an Amsterdam service or Knock doesn't have connectivity to a major Hub. Yet no one is asking them to throw in the towel or to stop having fantasys about securing them in the future.

Shannon in County Clare has 6 transatlantic flights a day in the Summer Season. Logic Seldom applies in Irish Aviation but on that basis, Cork should surely be able to support a 757 service 3 times per week.

I know the excuse about lack of pre-customs clearance is now being put forward as a successor to the one about the stopover but that doesn't stop thousands of people from flying to the US through LHR each year.
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Old 22nd Dec 2013, 01:07
  #4694 (permalink)  
 
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Shannon doesn't have an Amsterdam service or Knock doesn't have connectivity to a major Hub. Yet no one is asking them to throw in the towel or to stop having fantasys about securing them in the future.

Shannon in County Clare has 6 transatlantic flights a day in the Summer Season. Logic Seldom applies in Irish Aviation but on that basis, Cork should surely be able to support a 757 service 3 times per week.

I know the excuse about lack of pre-customs clearance is now being put forward as a successor to the one about the stopover but that doesn't stop thousands of people from flying to the US through LHR each year.
Ryan, I think if we put together those who connect via LHR, AMS and CDG we would come up with the figures to support say as you say, a three weekly T/A service. However there is one fundamental thing blocking it, airlines. For example if United Airlines were being offered no charges for say 2yrs to operate a 3x weekly service, they would see no benefit - as there management there could see, why do we need to add this 3x weekly demand to Cork if we could just ramp up demand via Shannon and have a total of 2x daily flights, further supporting existing demand and creating further opportunities for demand from the South (Cork, Kerry, Tipperary, Offaly, Galway etc). I believe this is is there logical thought, as for example, Aer Lingus have a spare weekly service which they could operate from Cork next Summer, but they choose to use it as a slot for schedule integrity - Thus see no point in taking a gamble at Cork.

My overall point is, we need to formost secure our existing future. To help existing airlines to achieve profit, to help them create further opportunities before we continue in this existing bubble of thinking we need to every year chase US airlines to create a US bound route ex-Cork, for example Aer Lingus see reality and thus realise there is no point in oversupplying choice, but increasing existing services to support overall demand and yields.
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Old 22nd Dec 2013, 02:52
  #4695 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps if People in cork got off their arses and flew on the new routes EI tried over the past five years paying a sustainable yield, they would still exist. But no - its too easy to blame everyone else!

Shannon doesn't have an Amsterdam service or Knock doesn't have connectivity to a major Hub. Yet no one is asking them to throw in the towel or to stop having fantasys about securing them in the future.
You don't get people moaning when extra aircraft are based in Shannon or Dublin or Knock or Kerry - you get people happy with extra frequency, and stability. Only in Cork fantasy land is an extra aircraft based is met with moans and groans.

I love to see the selective memory of people regarding Shannon on this thread. People forgetting that EI basically pulled out of the airport a few years back. They dropped LHR, and hacked north america down to one aircraft, summer only.

As discussed before the perfect airline for Shannon is either Delta or United. They have the feed from New York. Problem is that Cork is not the centre of the universe for them either. Routes like Belfast are marginal, Bristol was dropped.....

Meanwhile, Shannon has the historical links to North America from the beginning of trans Atlantic air travel, a brand in North America, US CBP,

Back to the ATR. Isn't it wonderful that an airline is investing equipment that makes business easier from Cork in cities that people want to go to? This investment from an airline that was nearly bankrupt 18 months ago is a great signal that cork is turning around.

Anyway, three 757s a week still wont keep many here happy, nor, with zero landing charges, will it be the panacea for the airport.
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Old 22nd Dec 2013, 09:11
  #4696 (permalink)  
 
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Jack and Copenhagen, I'd say you're comments are an accurate description of what's said by airline officials' when they're asked to operate to Cork. Why cannibalise our existing services to Shannon in particular and Dublin to a lesser extent?

However a Cork service would also almost certainly draw traffic from their competitors at other airports.

By the way Copenhagen, Aer Arann do not appear to be basing an extra aircraft at Cork next Summer. The Edinburgh route is being operated as a W. The spin in some newspapers has Bristol going Double Daily and Manchester going to 3 Daily but a closer analysis of the timetable points to the extra flights operating only a few days a week.

Once again Cork are confidently predicting growth for 2014. Time will tell although the 8% decline in November doesn't augur well for the rest of the Winter.
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Old 22nd Dec 2013, 14:07
  #4697 (permalink)  
CCR
 
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Think the route most impacted by a US route ex Cork would be Heathrow rather than Shannon or Dublin airport US services.
For the unlucky passengers from Stansted and Manchester who were diverted to Shannon the other night due to strong south westerly winds, I'm sure most would have preferred to be diverted to Dublin where at least there is a proper motorway to Cork rather than having to endure the Limerick to Cork boreen on the back of a bus.
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 19:25
  #4698 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
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Cork pax preference

Does CCR seriously believe that the road designation matters more than the journey time (in any event SNN/ORK is a National route and not a boreen)?
Passengers will opt for a 1.5 hr. journey over a 3 hr. journey every time! The exaggerated language betrays some form of inbuilt bias in the comment.
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 22:53
  #4699 (permalink)  
 
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Lisbon is now bookable again with a Cork based aircraft operating on Mondays and Thursdays from 30 March 2014 to 25 October 2014 - It will take the Monday and Thursday slots from Barcelona to be able to operate the service so, Barcelona will go from 4x weekly in 2013 to 3x weekly in 2014 (although previously guided as 5x weekly in 2014). Faro will now operate 8x weekly for 2014, with a double daily service on Saturdays as Aer Lingus will not now operate the -w- Munich route to Dublin on Saturdays. Aer Lingus and Aer Lingus Regional still now have a further higher seat volume on sale for 2014 -v- 2013.

Barcelona could still operate as 5x weekly with a -w- route with a Dublin aircraft however this is unlikely, so I would expect it to operate on Wednesdays, Fridays and Sundays for 2014.

Happy Christmas to all!
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Old 23rd Dec 2013, 23:17
  #4700 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Aer Lingus and Aer Lingus Regional still now have a further higher seat volume on sale for 2014 -v- 2013.
How dare they not fly to places we don't want to go to!
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