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CORK - 5

Old 9th Jul 2013, 22:28
  #4401 (permalink)  
 
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Continue to dodge the question haha pathetic! You do know the organisational structure at Cork? Cork is barely responsible for financial matters it basically lies with the DAA - The CAA were briefed on a new terminal by their heads in Dublin and you really believe they would object to such a new face at the airport? These were there bosses telling them we were getting a new terminal covered by the state which they have since refused to pay for so you tell me a company which would object to such a proposal.
That hare doesn't run.

Idea that bosses come down from Dublin and said we will build you a new terminal and spend hundreds of millions, there is no real plan and you don't have to do anything. Cork bosses never said anything about the runway needing an extension for T/A flights..................
Dublin Inept meet Cork Inept.

So the fact Cork handled the highest amount of Eastern Europe passengers in 2012 (yet to be declared for 2013) fully support that ludicrous statement.
The decline at Cork was due to the collapse in Domestic travel and reduction in UK flights - Europe has continued to grow although at a much lower pace than pre-2008.
Ireland's CSO says very differently then again Irish airports may be a bit weak on numbers.
Dublin had 626,000 pax v Cork 215,000 pax in 2012 travelling to or from these airports.

Katowice (KTW),Poland Vilnius (VNO),Lithuania Gdansk (GDN),Poland Wroclaw (WRO),Poland Poznan Lawica (POZ),Poland Warsaw - Modlin Mazovia (WMI), Poland Warsaw - Frederic Chopin (WAW),Poland Krakow (KRK),Poland
I excluded the other places in Eastern Europe flown to from Dublin so its a fair comparison.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 06:52
  #4402 (permalink)  
 
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Cork had little or no serious infrastructural investment from 1961 until the building of the new terminal. The old terminal was inadequate once passengers passed the 1m mark and was more suited to the Viscount era than the 21st Century.

The old terminal had simply outlived its usefulness and no amount of minor extensions and refurbishment was going to change that fact.


The road structure, Car Parks, drainage, apron etc also needed to be upgraded. The one criticism I would have of the DAA is the amount that was spent in making the new terminal look visually attractive.



I would also have doubts about its ability to efficiently handle 4m to 5m passengers in its current form but that's for another day.

Cork like Dublin experienced rapid growth between 1995 and 2008 when traffic quadrupled from 800.000 to 3.25 m. Two years of consecutive growth of 12% will take it back over 3 million again.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 09:47
  #4403 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by racedo
Idea that bosses come down from Dublin and said we will build you a new terminal and spend hundreds of millions, there is no real plan and you don't have to do anything. Cork bosses never said anything about the runway needing an extension for T/A flights..................
Dublin Inept meet Cork Inept.
In fairness, you aren't really taking the political agenda into account. It is crucial to understanding the matter.

Shannon has the only 3000+ metre runway in the country. At this stage, it's Shannon's only unique advantage. The special tax regime had to go because of EU rules, ditto the Stopover because of changes in the international landscape. In the past, limiting the length of Dublin's runway was a political issue - the Shannon lobby were that blunt in pursuing their interests. That's why Dublin's current runway is just that little bit too short.

Now, in that political climate of Dublin vs Shannon, Cork Airport has been a third fiddle. I'm not sure the Cork lobby even knows who to target. But what would be clear is that the prospect of Cork doing T/A would undermine Shannon, in a context where IWAK has also dabbled in T/A. There's also issue around the physical limits of the Cork site, even if you wanted to extend the runway.

But the main point is that, politically, approving a substantial upgrade to Cork's runway to better enable T/A flights would be a non-runner, because of what it would do to Shannon. So, politically, the deal was quite likely "You can have a Taj Mahal terminal building, and every possible bit and bob in supporting infrastructure. But, you'll understand, there's no change on the runway."
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 19:47
  #4404 (permalink)  
 
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If anything, Ryanair are now far more willing and, dare I say it, more adventurous at Cork than Aer Lingus.
Are you for real?

Out of all there routes only one or two haven't being operated before. PSA and BOD come to mind. Everything else is competing and trying to driver carriers off routes.

We shall see what 2014 brings for FR as NOC, SNN and ORK will have to up their game to get there business. They will be pushing for a deal at SNN and if the rumour on NOC threat is correct, they will also have to offer something more to keep them.

Aer Lingus are demand lead and not capacity and their strategy to maximize yield per passenger. It will be some time before they place another aircraft at Cork or other smaller base and to a lessor extent Dublin.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 20:06
  #4405 (permalink)  
 
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Marseilles 'Terminal' for €10 million

Racedo, have you ever visited the converted shed that is Terminal MP2 at Marseilles? Its a dump and €10 million was way too much to pay for it its conversion. They were done!!!
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 20:20
  #4406 (permalink)  
 
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Racedo, have you ever visited the converted shed that is Terminal MP2 at Marseilles? Its a dump and €10 million was way too much to pay for it its conversion. They were done!!!
Yup more that a few times and they can still afford to rebuild one every 5 years and would still cost less than Cork.

Then again Marseille total only has 8 million plus pax.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 20:28
  #4407 (permalink)  
 
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Aerlingus' operation in Cork is back at 2005 levels. They quietly closed Gatwick and Rome this Summer and have also withdrawn from Berlin, Warsaw, Prague and Madrid in the last few years while franchising out Birmingham and Manchester to EI regional.

Their bucket and Spade strategy has worked for them but has produced little or no growth at the airport as many of the Charter flights have ceased as a result.

In contrast Ryanair's growth at Cork since 2010 has been spectacular although as Jamie says most of it has been head to head competition with Aerlingus and Wizzair. It'll be interesting to see what tneir next move will be particularly as they're paying premium charges for most of their routes.

Maybe they've concluded that Cork is where the population is in the South of the Country and that trying to play it off against Shannon or Kerry just isn't worth the hassle!
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 20:31
  #4408 (permalink)  
 
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Yup more that a few times and they can still afford to rebuild one every 5 years and would still cost less than Cork.

Then again Marseille total only has 8 million plus pax.
Time for some more maths, BTS spend €96 million (69.7 by Government) and it handled just 1.4 million passengers in 2012 and it has capacity for 5 million. The terminal was build while passenger numbers declined every year since 2008. Construction started in 2010 BTW.

At least the DAA build a terminal when passenger numbers were on the up and the taxpayer isn't footing the bill.

Aerlingus' operation in Cork is back at 2005 levels. They quietly closed Gatwick and Rome this Summer and have also withdrawn from Berlin, Warsaw, Prague and Madrid in the last few years while franchising out Birmingham and Manchester to EI regional.

Their bucket and Spade strategy has worked for them but has produced little or no growth at the airport as many of the Charter flights have ceased as a result.

In contrast Ryanair's growth at Cork since 2010 has been spectacular although as Jamie says most of it has been head to head competition with Aerlingus and Wizzair. It'll be interesting to see what tneir next move will be particularly as they're paying premium charges for most of their routes.

Maybe they've concluded that Cork is where the population is in the South of the Country and that trying to play it off against Shannon or Kerry just isn't worth the hassle!
It may be back at 2005 levels but the economy is back a lot further. Cork is still holding up reasonably well considering. It was fine for EI to operate those European routes then as it was more loco and it worked or that what we believe but over the last few years charges at those airports have increased massively particularly FCO, WAR and SXF while APD in the UK is damaging UK service and then their is charges here and out 3 euro tax. Then not forgetting fuel costs. All adds up. EI have being priced out of the market by external factors and people don't want to pay high fares for these so they have little choice but to close these services.

EI short haul services are still very weak and this winter will be one of the hardest yet for them.

Last edited by Jamie2k9; 10th Jul 2013 at 22:14.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 20:45
  #4409 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Jack1985
Cork Airport did not spend €200m the DAA did.
Exactly.

DAA control Cork Airport and were instructed by the Government to get that 2nd terminal built.

To those who have difficulty in understanding what went on, I will repeat what I have said before here :

"It is the equivalent of Ryanair being asked to purchase a new fleet of airplanes for Aer Lingus, and sure don't worry about the cost, Aer Lingus will be picking up the tab."

That's how mad that was.

The DAA vastly overspent on the building and gave gold plated contracts to its Dublin cronies. Cork was stitched up royally. I don't know at what point they knew that they'd pull a fast one and pass all the debt onto the CAA, but I suspect it was from an early stage. Even though he was a Fianna Failer, I do believe Seamus Brennan's intentions were honourable.

The same cannot be said for that cabal running the DAA. This is the same DAA who tried to sell crucial land belonging to Cork Airport, behind the backs of the CAA, which would have permanently restricted the development of the airport.

On the wider subject of political interference, in Cork's case it is a LACK of political interference. Aer Rianta was always a Fianna Fail nest egg for themselves and their cronies. But when it came to Dublin, Cork and Shannon, it was always Dublin Number 1, Shannon Number 2 and Cork faraway Number 3.

The biggest reason for that is that Cork has always had appallingly poor politicians who would never fight for Cork and seeing that it was usually FF in power, we had gutless clowns like Lynch and Martin up against nastier crooks. I presume they never saw Cork Airport as being crucial to getting themselves re-elected. Perhaps Coveney thinks the same ? I had expected more of him and FG. That said he was in the Transport Spokesman brief before he stupidly backed Bruton in the push against Kenny.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 21:08
  #4410 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Aisle2c
I don't know at what point they knew that they'd pull a fast one and pass all the debt onto the CAA, but I suspect it was from an early stage.
Grand. When was it ever proposed that CAA would take on all the debt? The following news story might refresh your memory.
Cork Airport could take on ?60m debt - RTÉ News

<...> the Cork Airport <...> €220m debt <...> is principally due to the construction of a new terminal and additional facilities<...>

In July 2003, when the former Minister for Transport, Séamus Brennan, announced plans to break up Aer Rianta he promised that the Cork Airport Authority would commence business debt-free.

However, the Government changed its position and earlier this year the current Transport Minister, Martin Cullen, argued that under company law Cork's independence could be delayed by years if Dublin Airport Authority was forced to pay all the debt.

He said Cork could chose to become independent now by assuming a debt of €100m or wait a number of years until the DAA's financial position improved.
Originally Posted by Aisle2c
The same cannot be said for that cabal running the DAA.
A cabal currently led by a Cork native.
Originally Posted by Aisle2c
<...>in Cork's case it is a LACK of political interference. <...> it was always Dublin Number 1, Shannon Number 2 and Cork faraway Number 3.
Except, aren't the problems of Cork Airport's location down to political decisions. The reasons behind the choice of Ballygarvan have never been clear.

That aside, you're right about Cork being number 3, but Shannon was number 1. Shannon is the child who was never refused anything, and wasted it all.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 22:48
  #4411 (permalink)  
 
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That about sums it up with regard to Cork.

I am slowly coming to the view that the Cork crowd are ambivalent about seeking new airline business for the airport - I think they dont even look on it as being a part of their remit to go after new business - if they ever did in the first place. Who knows - maybe the paymasters in the DAA have ordered them not to engage at all on the premise that all new airline business should connect through Dublin and Cork can forget it and to concentrate more on softer topics like photo exhibitions on for example, some rather dubious Cork based personalities.

Yes, on the political side of things Cork continues to be number three in the pecking order and, yes, maybe we have lost sight of that agenda which seems to be very much alive, alas. It wasn't just Mary O'Rourke - it has been all of them and is so to this day with the special arrangements which have been put in place for Shannon. I guess the CAA crowd dont care about that but it is all so disheartening for so many others whom have a passion about their airport.

Hard as it is to believe I am now rather removed from the North Atlantic fixation for Cork - suffice it to say if EI offered a summer service on, say, twice a week with the 757 to New York it would easily work but as there are no signs that will ever happen.

It is still the lack of more UK and Europe service that fails me now. Why is there no Southampton now - it would be a banker with Flybe; why is there not some more Heathrow and third daily flights on both Birmingham and Manchester. Why no Switzerland which should deliver respectable yield and pretty good ancillary sales in Duty Free etc.

I could go on with more but it has been said before so why bother.

More Germany, a few more Paris, a few more Amsterdam and an elusive near east route to somewhere like Istanbul.

Does the DAA now want Cork to have more business - is the status quo the way they want it with Cork people being left to patronise the midnight busses to Dublin Airport?

If so, it stinks.
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Old 11th Jul 2013, 06:31
  #4412 (permalink)  
 
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The Atlantic Flying School at Cork Airport has won a contract to train pilots for Air Astana according to reports in today's Irish Independent and Irish Examiner.
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Old 11th Jul 2013, 07:51
  #4413 (permalink)  
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Doesn't MP2 in Marseilles only handle 1 million passengers pa?
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Old 19th Jul 2013, 17:33
  #4414 (permalink)  
 
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EI883 almost diverted to SNN today was there an incident at ORK?
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Old 20th Jul 2013, 17:01
  #4415 (permalink)  
 
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Would a training aircraft sitting on a fence have anything to do with it.
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Old 20th Jul 2013, 18:52
  #4416 (permalink)  
 
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There was no tech issue with the EI883, small light aircraft had engine trouble on climb out and ended up off 35

Last edited by eick320; 20th Jul 2013 at 20:45.
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Old 20th Jul 2013, 19:44
  #4417 (permalink)  
 
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I understand it was a Cessna 172 which was visiting from up the country that had the drama landing yesterday and not one of the locally based aircraft.
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Old 20th Jul 2013, 20:35
  #4418 (permalink)  
 
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TTT maybe it was those SNN lads. Theyd so anything for a diversion. Even 'ditching' in a ditch without a drop of water.
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Old 21st Jul 2013, 06:23
  #4419 (permalink)  
 
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Apologies during push around 6:50 am yesterday EI882 had a problem activating its NW DISC after push it went back onto stand 10 for around 5 mins before departing after quickly rectifying the issue. I had no knowledge of the light aircraft accident and just assumed which I know longer will, but it did carry out a MAP on 35 before holding over North Cork and returning on 17. I will no longer assume but maybe as some of you can appreciate work turns off for me on days off and I only recieved a text about the incident around 7pm and the fact I didn't respond on this website was because I do have a life, I know some of you and clearly high meadow 19 have an an issue with my life. To those of you who doubt my employment thats your issue I have nothing to prove I have given my word and there are many of us who communicate via PM and fellow employees here who work with the DAA who I communicate but they are not so forthcoming about employment and I will now elect to do the same. Its unfortunate that those of us who seek to provide info on this forum and who actually work in the industry are painted with ''forum patrolling'' and ''bullying'' when we seek to provide facts. If you don't want them and the information which I regularly provide then thats fair enough. But to the those who communicate with me via PM I will continue to provide you with the knowledge I have and the knowledge you request to understand.

Thanks, I guess.
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Old 21st Jul 2013, 09:07
  #4420 (permalink)  
 
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Keep posting Jack.
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