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IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK

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IRELAND WEST AIRPORT KNOCK

Old 26th Feb 2008, 23:03
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Just tried pricing a flight from Knock to East midlands on ryanair then hit new search at end of screen which brought me to a new booking screen which shows London Gatwick as one of the drop down options from Knock. Are Ryanair feeling the pinch from XL?
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Old 26th Feb 2008, 23:33
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2 x Gatwick would be nice, and there should still be good demand in the region given the loss of SNN - LHR. But FRs previous history on the route has proven to be purely tactical. So not surprising, they have to do something with all those aircraft.

Looking at the UK CAA stats January FR loads are down but not unusually so for time of year and current economic climate. XL haven't had a massive start considering how many previously used the route, however it's only 2 months in with summer to come, they are still a new brand in the Irish market and the times are a bit random.

Bmi Baby are adding an extra Sunday flight to MAN. The airports phase 1 departure terminal expansion got the go ahead this week also, it will increase the passenger handling capacity to 800,000.

Last edited by sawtooth; 27th Feb 2008 at 08:28.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 00:16
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I hope they dont loose xl , although had Ryanair been the carrier on the lgw route this time we probably would have seen bigger passenger numbers being carried in the first two months.

Any idea how the glasgow route is performing?

Thanks
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 13:48
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I was actually on the Glasgow flight last week my first ever flight from Knock. I was surprised that it was almost full, that was during the week and I came back on the Sunday but it was maybe 60% full. So it must have its good and bad days.

Regarding Ryanair coming back on the LGW flight I think it would be good both airlines offer completely different services. XL is kind of in this day and age a full service airline they don’t charge for bags.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 15:51
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When if ever are NOC and the Irish government going to get real about this airport's potential. Firstly, the only positive thing about NOC is their ability to generate self hype and get away with blatantly erroneous PR. Take for example the US services of last year, talking about bringing millions to the region, tens of thousands of passengers etc. It came to nothing, even though the Irish government invested 2m in this one route alone in marketing support, crazy. They were talking a couple of years ago at being at 1m pax this year, they will be lucky to do 600k. How can NOC with no catchment area possibly support two carriers on one route? Has onyone looked at XLs figures, especially in light of the other London services! I am close to NOC and I could rant on further, but let's get real, it's all talk, but no substance, and a lot of carriers have lost a lot of money on NOC operations, they do have a future, but let's be real about what it is.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 16:57
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Sounds promising on the Glasgow front considering its only 2 weeks off the ground.

As regards pax figures for this year knock is looking at 700k with around 600k scheduled and 90k caharter. These figures are based on current services and will only grow.

The us flights were a big success and a 5 year contract had been signed with flyglobespan. However it was flyglobespan that pulled the plug due to the huge amount of aircrat problems and also lack of demand in liverpool. Flights were achieving an 80-90% load factor with knock sector filling the bulk of seats each flight. So it is clear there is a definite demand for these flights and will return with another carrier im sure.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 17:29
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iwak....no axe to grind, but in a nutshell, XL need now to be protected on LGW and allowed to grow the market and yield. No more debacles like last year. SNN is the airport with the infrastructure for transatlantic along the West Coast - the total population along the Western seaboard is approx. 1 million people, there are bigger European cities with no US services, the West has one, no need for another. Heard Flyglobespan were not getting the yield. It is hard to see where 600k pax will come from on scheduled alone, let's hope it does, but don't encourage services for the sake of it, focus on sustainable business, and if XL faces competition on LGW I hope the competitor pays the full published charges in line with EU.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 18:11
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How can NOC with no catchment area possibly support two carriers on one route?
Where did the 567k passengers appear out of in the last year then?

I'm guessing the only reason there was such huge demand for LGW when Ryanair and EasyJet were on it, was the resulting bargin fares of having those two cutting into each other. I wouldn't expect any less than Ryanair to restart LGW and close it again if XL Pulled off the route.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 18:35
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iwhak->EU rules about airlines paying the published prices only apply to public airports. Knock is privately owned, so can make whatever deals it likes.

That said, I agree that it would be counter-productive to give Ryanair preferential rates compared to XL. It would mean that no other operators would touch the airport in future.
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Old 27th Feb 2008, 22:17
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840.....your interpretation on the EU rules is incorrect, in fact the Irish public airportscome under less scrutiny from the DOT than the regionals, it is a questionable policy, but becuase they receive 'grant aid' from the Department the DOT effectively tell them how to run their business. Up until two years ago NOC was heavily subsidised. After they received their capex 20 odd million this has been cut back, but I can assure you Dept. look at regionals a lot more than the state airports!
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Old 28th Feb 2008, 10:20
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Hi iwhak, not having a go but I don't understand some of your points:

When if ever are NOC and the Irish government going to get real about this airport's potential.
What has a private company launching a route from a private airport go to do with the government?

Firstly, the only positive thing about NOC is their ability to generate self hype and get away with blatantly erroneous PR.
I accept they have been in the news a lot with route launches and site development, but all small airports rely on media and PR to get the message out about their services and compete with the state airports.

Take for example the US services of last year, talking about bringing millions to the region, tens of thousands of passengers etc.
I presume you are referring to the initial projection of 45000 passengers on the 2 routes and their prospective tourism spending. This would have been the capacity on the route, so yes there was an element of marketing spin, but isn't that normal of most business launches.

It came to nothing, even though the Irish government invested 2m in this one route alone in marketing support, crazy.
I'm not saying NOC should or can sustain a transatlantic service, especially with current oil prices/economic outlook. But they did carry almost 35,000 and the airport reported high load factors for the summer above 75% on both, hardly a disaster given that many commentators would have said it had zero potential. FlyGlobespan were the weak link due to their internal organisation problems, ETOPs aircraft issues, and lack of demand from LPL. FlyGlobespan bit off more than they could chew and have stopped virtually all of their transatlantic operations this year from the UK.

As for government investment the tourism board invested in regional marketing, that is their remit as an organisation, and they pointed out at the time that the North West was in need of tourism investment as it is last on the list fro US visitors.

They were talking a couple of years ago at being at 1m pax this year, they will be lucky to do 600k. How can NOC with no catchment area possibly support two carriers on one route?
Their long term development plan aimed for 1m by 2010, if connections to European hubs and US could be achieved.

NOC has had several years of double digit growth, however when 2 services are lost in a year (FR/U2 -LGW) from a small airport it is always going to have an impact on the bottom line. 2006 figures passenger were probably artificially higher due to Ryanais fare war with U2. However NOC have added 4 UK new routes in 2007 and the holiday charters continue to grow as a signifigant part of the business, so 700,000 should be realistic this year.

Has onyone looked at XLs figures, especially in light of the other London services! I am close to NOC and I could rant on further, but let's get real, it's all talk, but no substance, and a lot of carriers have lost a lot of money on NOC operations, they do have a future, but let's be real about what it is.
Ryanair enjoy good yields on their NOC - London services, with average load actors in the 70 - 85% area. So it is not surprising that they will react to competition, what is unfortunate is when this ends in the total loss of a route as in 2006.

Airlines like any other business will provide a service if it is profitable, Easyjet lost money because of fierce competition, what's the problem, they weren't forced to use the airport.

iwak....no axe to grind, but in a nutshell, XL need now to be protected on LGW and allowed to grow the market and yield. No more debacles like last year.
Agree totally, but NOC aren't in a position to say no to a new FR route and piss off their largest carrier.

SNN is the airport with the infrastructure for transatlantic along the West Coast - the total population along the Western seaboard is approx.
No problem with SNN, lucky to have such a facility on the west coast at all and it serves our needs very well, though from the North West Dublin is as close. Some will argue that seasonal direct connections to the North West should be developed for tourism as currently the majority of US visitors ignore the region, focusing on the Shannon, Kerry/Cork and Dublin.

don't encourage services for the sake of it, focus on sustainable business, and if XL faces competition on LGW I hope the competitor pays the full published charges in line with EU.
Again I agree totally, while a morning and evening european hub connection would be the ideal, it would only be of use if both are operated by the same carrier longterm. But again they are a small airport and FR have a lot of power.

The MD Liam Scollan has given some insightful interviews recently where makes a clear business case for quality, sustainable development of the airport for the propose connectivity aiding regional tourism and business, a refreshing voice when compared to the poor mouth "we deserve" attitude of some western campaigners.

Up until two years ago NOC was heavily subsidised.
Forgive my ignorance but how was NOC "heavily subsidised"? A far as I can see prior to the Transport 21 infrastructure package for regional airports in 07 NOC received virtually no investment over the last decade other than the odd WDC, Board Failte tourism grant. The only subsidy being on the EU Public Service Obligation route to Dublin.
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Old 28th Feb 2008, 10:41
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sawtooth....nice reply, not intended as criticism, and you have put points forward very well. Points are, it is well known that Tourism Ireland put nearly €2m in to last year's US services. The state announced infrastructure grants last year worth over €20m, and up until then gave in the region of 750k marketing support annually, and have effectively bankrolled NOC since inception, that is why the state have such an influence in its affairs, in that every capex expenditure must go through the same procurement process as the state does. The infrastructure as stated already is in place to support US routes - at SNN. On route incentives NOC must submit their subvention programme to the Dept. for approval, as all other Irish regionals do. Mr Scallon projected at the launch of the US services that the services would bring 35k inbound pax with a spend of €28m to the West region, that makes 70k in total, that was a load factor in excess of 100%, in the end the figures were half his projections at a very low yield, it's not just numbers. With regard to LGW why allow competition, because at the end of the day you were left with no LGW service. There is no doubt there is a catchment area, but it's a very very small one, NOC has done well in recent years, but it's too overstated and opinionated, Mr Scallon was on national TV and issuing press releases over the EI SNN/LHR issue, why? Don't get me wrong I wish it well, but more substance please, too many failed starts!
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Old 26th Mar 2008, 13:29
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I see Ryanair going double daily to stansted from summer timetable obviously a retaliation to xl .

Any news on what Glasgow loads are like?
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Old 26th Mar 2008, 13:56
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Regarding government support/"subsidy" for Knock, the Western Development Commission currently help Knock, as Shannon Development help Shannon. Both constitute government money being spent.
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 08:50
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Mixed news for Ireland West Airport Knock and air access to the North West this week. Passenger numbers at the airport are up 20% for the first 6 months, but the current economic conditions will make it tough for regional airports to grow in the coming year.

Building work on the new departure terminal has been underway for the last two months, space which is badly needed especially at weekends where charter and scheduled departures in the same time slots can stretch the current facilities. Works are also underway on the CATII ILS/lighting upgrades, RESAs and preparatory work for the extended Apron. The government are cutting-back €13m in regional airport investment, blaming the slow drawdown of funding, no details of where from yet. Cutbacks are understandable with the current public finances falling, but weren't Transport 21/NDP investments supposed to be ring-fenced?



No word on the Dublin PSO yet after Cityjet declined the contract citing lack of aircraft due to a delay in completing their VLM merger. FR have said they will apply to run a midday service, which is outside the terms of the original PSO and probably unsustainable as most users on the route are business people seeking an early morning connection to Dublin.

XL are to end the daily NOC - LGW route from September 2nd saying the current economic climate and oil prices have resulted in a re-focus on its core leisure business. Loads for last month were 60% and they had invested a lot in building the brand in the region, but FR have been heavily discounting STN and LTN in competition all summer and added 2nd STN rotations on peak days. Obviously there is demand on the route (the only hub link in the region), but it will be hard to see anyone taking on FR for a third time. The airports best hope of route growth in the coming months is continued expansion of FR routes to the UK and Europe, FR now operate 5 routes from NOC with the addition of LPL next month, they could be persuaded to base an aircraft with the right deal, as they are currently doing at KIR.
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 09:52
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FR Knock Dublin Daily

Sawtooth I read with interest your post, you said that Ryanair have applied to run a mid day service on Knock Dublin? That's amazing. I remember when they did an EMB on the route I remember in one of the time tables they did 2 flights on monday wednesday and Friday !

If MOL wants to operate this route it is clearly for the love of the place as it is madness in financial terms. I read that when Aer Arann did the route it was like 10-15 pax per flight, however, I dont know how accurate this is.

I have to say that I think that Ryanair has been kind to Knock Airport and since the new directors have come on Ryanair has added extra routes and MOL has been around the place for photos etc, I think that he gets on well with them. What do you think?

EI-BUD
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 10:34
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MOL just wants to take the PSO money so no one else benefits, he has stated many times he is against PSO, as he is against most aviation spending that doesn't go to his bottom line.

From my own anecdotal experience of the Dublin route the flight usually had around 25-30 pax morning and evening. The main users are the business community going to Dublin meetings or catching onward connections from DUB. Others use it to access medical services or leisure. But to dismiss a PSO service because it is not commercially profitable is ridiculous given the founding premise of the hundreds of European PSO schemes it that they provide a public service on routes that would not otherwise be economically viable. Driving from the North West still takes 3 hrs and the earliest trains do not arrive into Dublin before 10.30, were better road and rail links available it would not be needed. Many have said GWY and KIR would be commercially viable today, so should they be the be removed from PSO?

I can't comment on the airports relationship with FR (I have no connection with them), there is a lot of history there as NOC-STN is one of their longest running routes and high yield from what I hear. But the airports management are very proactive and innovative in providing route support. Despite what MOL says about the regional airports future it also suits FR to serve the UK regions from NOC and take market share from RE/WW.

Last edited by sawtooth; 5th Aug 2008 at 10:50.
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 10:55
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What stops aer Arann from picking up the pieces on the DUB route? Their flight used to be little more than a tag-on for one of the DUB-based ATRs, with the aircraft overnighting at NOC rather than at DUB. I assume that the POS money was attractive enough in the past, so why don't they try to keep the flights now that Cityjet has pulled out?
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 12:22
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Well O'Leary strikes again.....sole operator at Kerry, now Knock and he may as well be at Shannon, his strategy is working, clear out the rest, and then he'll slowly reduce services to kill off the regionals. I expect a major FR blow to Shannon is on the way! Sawtooth there is no financial case for a PSO on NOC it should have been abandonded years ago. It's interesting that you say you have no association with NOC yet all your posts have been on that airport and at times very quick on announcements. What's the bet FR reduce frequency at NOC or LTN for the winter! Finally, I hope that the major cuts in the capex programme happen at NOC as there is no financial case to support it, its business case was based on a flawed transatlantic dream! As previously the only thing NOC are exceptional at is political lobbying and PR in support of a non-existent business case. Waiting for the backlash!
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Old 5th Aug 2008, 12:29
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But to dismiss a PSO service because it is not commercially profitable is ridiculous given the founding premise of the hundreds of European PSO schemes it that they provide a public service on routes that would not otherwise be economically viable
SAWTOOTH
Are you saying that simply because a PSO route gets funds it automatically becomes viable?

Why on earth would Ryanair put a daily 738 onto a route that may achieve at most 50 pax each way, one which wont allow for Business passengers? (ie timings as suggested).

Ryanair is a commercial organisation and must deliver shareholder return, and they should make decisions on a commerical basis.

If it was a smaller aircraft with realistic operating economics for the route that would make perfect sense. I would also suggest that Aer Arann would be after the route if it delivered a return, I would also suggest that it does not.

Some of my colleagues who have used the flight say that there are mostly fewer than 15 pax, but at a level of 25-30 as you suggest I would take it Aer Arann could make it work given the fares and the grant?
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