MANSTON- 3

[niknak]

MDIS

I fail to see, that otherwise commendable optomism, what will pay the bills at Manston.
Infratrail are, after all that has been said and done, no different from anyone else seeking a financial return on their investment.
Their investment in both Lubeck and Manston has proved to be entirely questionable, but as I am not one of their funding partners I am not too concerned.
Waht I would say is that they, in both cases, have invested heavily in huge infrastructures which have revealed no return now, in the near or distant future.

Again, in both cases, Manston and Lubeck present a good opportunity for return as domestic and Industrial development.

Well done Infatrail, a shame those of you who support the naievity of airport development at both sites couldnt see it coming....

[MDIS]

Niknak
I would like to think that I offer a neutral view. I, like you am not an investor of Infratil but they seem to have done a good job at PIK and Wellington. Perhaps you will be proved correct that they are diversifying into development of disused airports, but I would question why they are spending so much money at Manston in terms of business development salaries, new taxiway lighting, new de icing equipment and a replacement radar system. If they are as you say just treading water for a few years why waste the money?

I do agree that they have shareholders who will eventually say "its not making money get shot of it" and that may be the end of Manston as an airport.

I do believe that there is a future for MSE as a regional airport and contrary to the beliefs of some on this forum EUjet proved it.

Planestations finances were precarious at best whereas Infratil have the financial backing to stay for the long term, they have just bought out another utilities comapny in NZ for $300Mill. I fail to see why they would ask the good people of Thanet for a mere £100k.

MDIS

PS a good website to look at www.whingeinthanet.co.uk

Mdis

[airmemphis]

Do MK Airlines operate cargo flights from Manston to Cairo (Egypt)?

[EGMH]

No but most of the inbound MK's do route via Cairo, although Egypt Air Cargo do take freight to Cairo.

[airmemphis]

Originally Posted by EGMH

No but most of the inbound MK's do route via Cairo, although Egypt Air Cargo do take freight to Cairo.

IIRC MK Airlines seem to have flights from Manston, Ostend and Hahn to Nairobi all with a stop in Cairo. So are you saying these are techincal stops rather than commercial ones?

Today there was a flight (7G102) that departed CAI at around 13:30 for Manston. I assume all are with B742Fs, correct?

And by that last comment do you mean Egypt Air Cargo operate Manston flights? Ad-hocs or scheduled?

[EGMH]

All MK flights are B742F. I assume the Cairo stop is to up-load cargo, although I'm not 100% sure?
In the run up to Xmas Egypt air cargo were operating 3 cargo flight per week. Some routing onto Hahn whilest others took loads to Cairo.

[Manston Airport]

I like reading about Manston news what planes are landing and going ,Its furture cargo airlines and passager airline that might be coming into MSE. I like this thread as its just about Manston but there are a few people who cant shut the up.Until Manston Fails then you can say your stuff but as its not just stay silent MK Got rid off there DC-8 2 years ago i think now not sure.

Their fleet:
B747-2R7(FSCD) 9G-MKL
B747-2B5B(SF) 9G-MKM
B747-245(FSCD) 9G-MKP
B747-2B5(FSCD) 9G-MKR
B747-2B5(FSCD) 9G-MKS
B747-249(FSCD)
9G-MKU Stored at Rome (FCO)
B747-2S4F(SCD) G-MKAA

James

[berrs003]

EGMH

It appears Egypt cargo have stopped recently. I havent seen any A300's recently. The three flights has that always been the case or have they stepped it up a gear?
Do Mk operate daily now?

HINT: No sarcastic comments from ANTI-Manstons

[catflaps]

Manston Airport posts the following:

"I like this thread as its just about Manston but there are a few people who cant shut the up.Until Manston Fails then you can say your stuff but as its not just stay silent"

Again, I can't see how this complies with the posting guidelines. To me it appears to be a crude attempt to censor the content of the board by intimidating anyone who thinks that the current operation at Manston is a pig in a poke. I should point out that Manston HAS failed (on more than one occasion) and so, I see no reason why I shouldn't mention this inconvenient truth.

I should also remind everyone that this is exactly the same tactic that was used previously to try to prevent posters from warning of the imminent collapse of EUjet. As things stand Masnton must be losing money hand over fist. Unless things get significantly busier this won't be allowed to continue.

P.S. Anyone know what's happened to Phil Vann? PM with answer please.

[Evileyes]

Moderation and topic 'ownership'

The Mods find it odd that we have to spend such a disproprtionate amount of our time moderating the childish, schoolboy posts on this thread. This thread exists neither to specifically promote nor denegrate the airport but to discuss it.

From this point on, posts which imply some sort of cult ownership of the topic such as: "Until Manston Fails then you can say your stuff but as its not just stay silent" stand a great risk of being deleted in their entirety and the poster blocked from this forum. Nobody who can make their case repectfully is going to be muzzled here.

Personal attacks will get you booted.

The next step will be we close it entirely until the Manston posters have had some time to grow up and mature.

To be clear, if you disagree with the point of view of another poster or group of posters then make your point(s) with respect and move on. Nobody has more "right" to this thread than others.

Cheers,
The Mods

[blazing_air]

New General Manager

Thank you for your comments mods, i guess we all need to step back a bit and grow up.
To answer a previous question:
Phil Vann is no longer the GM at MSE.
Tom Wilson has stepped in as a temporary replacement, who i believe originated from Prestwick, then went onto Luebeck as GM.
I suspect that we might see a new GM in the months to come, but that decision is with senior management.

And yes, Manston is losing money, it was, i thought common knowledge and Infratil certainly knew when they bought the Airport, how much was being lost, but have budgeted for this loss and do expect to turn it around.
At least that is what they said when they became new owners and due to the spend so far and the efforts from the management team, i have no reason to dis-believe them.

[MDIS]

Yes well said Blazing Air. We all get a bit heated sometimes. Perhaps we should all show the Mods that we can be grown ups and self moderate the thread.

I understand that T W is only going to be atemporary replacement.

I also agree with you that at the outset Infratil stated their outline budget and from memory it included a loss provision for 2 or 3 years.

I received an email update from Lydd today which was very interesting. At the risk of it being wiped by the mods as advertising if anyone wants a copy please send me a pm.

I have to say that the Lydd Airport website is far more positive than MSE and the emailed update sort of rubs MSE's nose in the London Airports diversion subject.

Regards

Mdis

[catflaps]

"At least that is what they said when they became new owners and due to the spend so far and the efforts from the management team, i have no reason to dis-believe them."

The problem with hanging your hat on what Infratil have said is that they have said precious little. There seems to be general agreement that they originally anticipated losing money at Manston for somewhere between two and three years. What capital expenditure was built into this forecast ,we can only guess at. Personally, I can see little sign of major investment at the airport. If they are spending millions it's all behind the scenes.

However, the other side of the balance sheet is a bit easier to talk about. Apart from a few moth-eaten freight flights, they have attracted little new business to the airport. And whilst every new flight is greeted with a fanfare, the cancelled services just slide away without mention. Those who are in the business know only too well that volume is important. Unlike Heathrow, Manston can't rely on a vast post check-in mall to subsidise its operation. The money they make will have to come from landing fees, loading/unloading fees and fuel sales.

If Manston was going to get significantly busier next Summer they'd have to be selling tickets now. People are booking their Summer hols. now, and, if you haven't advertized yet you're missing the boat. My impression is that they've missed the boat for a second Summer. With aggressive competition from Lydd now on the cards for the Summer of 2008, the commercial environment is changing.

All of this leads me to my conclusion that things are NOT going according to plan. Fair enough; they planned to lose money for two or three years. I won't disagree. But I can't believe that they planned to be so unsuccessful in attracting new business. My assumption is that they are losing more money than they expected to. The only way this will turn around is if they attract some volume business. The clock is ticking and, by the end of this Summer they will be two years into the project. Whilst they may well have planned to lose money, they may well re-evaluate the situation in the light of experience.

[MDIS]

Catflaps

Can you elaborate on the "cancelled flights" I can only assume that you mean Esperia. I tried to contact Esperia, even had a meeting arr nged. They forgot to turn up! The whole thing was a joke and Infratil announced nothing therefore cancelled nothing. Please dont confuse the local press with the owners.

I would suggest that your favourite cattle market (LHR) cant rely on post check in revenue any more because you cant buy anything whilst queuing to check in or whilst queuing at security. Unless you want to get there 4 hours prior to departure.

I cant understand why you continue to laud the benefits of LHR and LGW when they are totally different animals to MSE and Lydd and in my humble opinion they are places to be avoided unless absolutely necessary. Lydd is obviously better for you as the aircraft are far away from Thanet. ( Mods not a personal attack just fact)

I agree with your comments re Lydd, they have an agressive website and what seems to be a coherent business plan. Did you know that their marketing manager used to hold the same position at EUjet?

PS did you see the email update from Lydd? Very impressive!

Mdis

[deedave]

Dear Mods.

Thank you for your comments.

Personally, I would request that you consider closing this forum to be a last resort.

I have come to believe there are some individuals with a vested interest in MSE trying to engineer such an occurence - hence the personal attacks etc.

The rest of us are very grateful for an opportunity to discuss the truth about this airport.


Moving on -

Re - LHR and LGW.
These aiports have come in for a good deal of criticism in many Manston discussions, much of it unfounded.

I use LHR all the time.

Yes, it is quite a hike from Thanet, but when you get there what do you get?

Regular flights to everywhere.
Multiple carriers so you can get a later flight if need be.
Reasonable priced flights and facilities.
Great cafes, pubs, shops etc.

Also, outside of holiday peaks, the accusations of long delays are untrue.

Deedave travelling LHR to Europe........

Check-in 5-10 mins (machine and fast bag drop)
Security about 10 mins (but get yer shoes off !!)
Baggage reclaim - sometimes it's waiting for me on the carousel!! - but usually about 10 mins.

Despite it's shortcomings, LHR is one of the most outstanding transport centres on the planet and we should be proud of it

All of this notwithstanding, as a local I would love to see MSE offering me all the flights I require, but sadly this is impossible.

[MDIS]

General comment

Regular flights to everywhere.Multiple carriers so you can get a later flight if need be.Reasonable priced flights and facilities.Great cafes, pubs, shops etc"Regular flights to everywhere, yes of course they have there are 5 terminalsMultiple carriers Yes of course its the busiest airport in the worldRasonable priced flights, yes but so have many other airportsGreat Cafes, pubs and shops, yes all very expensive because BAA take a huge commission.But what has this got to do with Manston having a future as a regional airport?Southampton is very successful and it doesnt have multiple daily flights to every location and you can say the same for Bournemouth, London City, Norwich, etcManston will never offer as many flights as the big London airports but it will offer some flights that some people in the South East want, up to 500,000 to start with.Mdis

[tilewood]

I have been dipping in and out of the Manston thread for the last few years,
just for amusement.

Each time I come back in, it is the same sterile,circular discussion.

Just like religion everything is based on hope and faith, nothing is proven, and anyone who doesn't believe is ridiculed as a heretic and stoned from the temple.

But as the old saying goes: ' Where there is life, there is hope!'

I would sincerely like to see Manston succeed, and to provide employment
and prospects to an economic backwater.

This forum is read around the world, regrettably the level of this debate has
done nothing to enhance the airport's reputation.

[Jes]

I feel I must go off at some length.

The Mods have taken action against a couple of teenage scribblers: if you scan through old messages you'll see they've irritated me many times. Perhaps I can say, in their favour, that the internet was unheard of when I was their age; my youthful outbursts at Gatwick went unnoticed by industry stalwarts.

I don't rant at other posters, but I like to focus on this thread being about rumours relating to Manston. I happen to live in Thanet, and am a director of three companies involved in aviation and passenger transport, a lifelong aviation enthusiast, and a supporter of economic regeneration in East Kent.

I could bang on about Southend, another airport with problems, but I don't. Whilst I see the investment in Lydd as a potential threat to the existing infrastructure at Manston, I'm not going to attack Lydd.

Economic success is so often related to the influence of individuals. I know that other posters have in-depth knowledge of the history of Planestation and EUjet. I have had frank discussions with many of the leading players of that period. I remember questioning the viability of the Copenhagen route during a conversation with a PS director before it started; he shared my belief that it was doomed.

I could go on for hours about the crazy decisions taken by individuals in charge: some examples

the non-building of hangars for both MK and Atlanta
the driving away of MK and freight in general
the acceptance of EI-DFZ (20% of the fleet was a rogue)
the market research on the Manchester route, which consisted of looking at the clothes worn by passengers; as they were casual they were deemed to be leisure travellers, so the service was cut to one a day

It's not correct to say there is not a market for Manston, and that's why I don't respond to doomsayers. I have to fly to Dublin 8 times a year, and having tired of the Ryanair scramble at Gatwick, have moved up to £80 returns from LHR with Aer Lingus, with that priceless feature, advance seat allocation. The snag with this route is the stacking each time I return to LHR and the stress of getting to Victoria for the Thanet train. There are routes from Manston that are bankers; the cognoscenti know which they are, and they will run: we might have to wait till 2008.

The other tired old mantra is the close it and build houses story. Not really worthy of comment.

I can only hope that Infratil have the stamina and leaders to see it through. One individual has been removed already, so we should see some improvement.

Facts/rumours

Lighting renewal almost finished
Interim radar ready soon, and a re-conditioned one will be erected later on a 30m pole on the northern grass
additional freight apron to be built soon (planning permission in place)
DAS have plans to expand (I know more but can't say)
BMed story looks good

I could mention some possible problems, but shan't.

[MDIS]

What a great post.

I totally agree, mistakes have been made and will continue to be made but I still believe MSE has a future as a regional airport and as you you we may have to wait until 2008.

MDIS

[Jes]

snippet from "BMed to be sold" thread

"This is all good news for BMED, after a hard year from rising fuel costs and the Beirut closure.

We have been told to expect a few changes, perhaps adding cargo a/c to the fleet and more new routes to SE Asia."

Ummmm