DURHAM AIRPORT - 3

[HeathrowDictator]

Bol Zup

I would be interested to find where you got your information from, but I would like to clarify some of it:

I was one of those 3 controllers taken on in the last 3 years (2 years ago), and I validated my tower rating in 4 months. I am starting to cross train onto Radar now, the delay has been a lack of OJTIs as mentioned.

I can only comment for the last two years, where I have known of 2 other recruited controllers - 1 is still under training, the other left before validation.

The controller on "longish term sick" has returned to work and is now once again valid.

The "backlog" while I have been at the unit has never been greater than 3 controllers awaiting training - not sure if it has ever been as bad as five - but there again like I say I can only comment on the last 2-2.5 years.

One problem of attracting new controllers is indeed the money situation. Recently Liverpool advertised for ATCOs with wages upto £55600pa. DTVA top end is around £47000pa. The other issue I would guess is a lack of traffic - why would an ATCO move from a busier unit to a quieter one (on paper-not taking into account the amount of VFR transits Radar works in the summer months), unless they really wanted to be in the area; especially if that move also involved a pay-cut?

I can also confirm a previous post in which the airport had to close for ATCO breaks due to sickness. Most of the time we are able to cover it by coming in on overtime shifts, but a lot of that time we break SCRATCOH and it is something that obviously isn't a long term solution.

Big shame about the Heathrow numbers - especially with lower fares on the route (I believe they're still operating it as a low-cost service, although I may be mistaken?).

And of course today, with RVRs of less than 300m on both ends for most of the morning, nothing has landed - Newcastle getting the majority of diverted traffic

-HD-

*The views expressed in this post represent those of the author, and not those of DTV airport*

[Bol Zup]

HD- maybe my timescale is a bit out, of the 3 controllers I was talking about none are presently at EGNV. Must have been before your time.

[shamrock7seal]

can someone tell me how long bmi can go on losing pax on london heathrow?

latest CAA stats shows average load factor for Nov was just 49%

[uklad007]

I think the Pax loss on LHR is a worry and the late night slot protector route into LHR wont add too many pax to this but, and by all means correct me if am wrong, isnt the current low cost LHR model in place to make profits rather than simply build up pax - isnt BMI pax nos for mainline down as a whole for all GB/Euro Routes out of LHR but profits are up?, although it would be interesting to know what their new breakeven is (in terms of pax) on this route (MME-LHR) - am guessing 49% is too light on nos. Despite all this I cant see the axeman a cometh for BMI at MME.

As well as the loss of pax at DTV has DTV lost its webmaster - bmibaby still has a link on the website and wizzair isnt listed under the contacts and some of the new routes arent showing on the map nor in their drop down route menu on timetables/destinations?

[MME4eva]

UkLad007 I agree with your very reasoned argument about the bmi LHR operation and, with regards to this, their MME performance. Forgive me everyone if I'm being over simplistic but is MME really an Airbus A319 (or indeed A320) type destination? In the days of Fokker 70/100 and 737-500s you would see load factors very healthy and hasn't the poor load factors been a consequence simply of an aircraft change in the bmi fleet?

Now actual passenger numbers is another thing all together and all I have to say to this is that we always lived in the shadows of NCL and even LBA with our figures for LHR but surely a 4th rotation (albeit a slot protector) is diluting demand and spreading the numbers of pax over too many flights?

As for the website this is poor on behalf of DTV as in a cut throat environment as aviation up to date info is vital and i honestly believe info on the website could be the difference between a potential passenger from let's say the Humber/Yorks region choosing between EMA and MME on some routes not offered at DSA or LBA (we'll forget about HUY to the tumbleweed spotters )

[DTVAirport]

No. Since bmi changed their business model, the A319 and even the A320 has often showed healthy load factors, what is affecting the route is the bmibaby departure, 90%, probably more, of all people I have spoken to don't realise that bmi and bmibaby are two different airlines and people have automatically assumed that the London Heathrow route has gone along with all the others.

This is why load factors have taken a nose dive. I would have thought that bmi taking over bmibaby's advertisment which appears prior to the ITV Weather would have helped, but obviously not. What they really need to do is plaster a load of advertisments on buses like GSM, LS and T3 do.

[ncleflights]

Originally Posted by mmeteesside

Passenger Numbers for November 2006

Awful month in November, overall passengers was 34450, down 36.8%, understandable with Baby pulling out I guess.

All of the other routes took a dive too

ABZ 3273 61.3%
AMS 9494 65.9%
BRU 597 23.4%
DUB 5152 64.9%
LHR 9278 35% (based on fully A319's, 3x daily up til 12th (2 on a Sat) then from 13th 4x daily (2 on Sat) til the end of the month)
TFS 325 43% (I've based this on just 189 seats each week for MME - half a 738 both ways as it's shared with GLA)

The TFS and BRU didn't do too badly for their first months, but LHR is shocking! Just got to hope they don't pull it completely.

mmeteesside

I think DTVA need to worry not only about LHR but also BRU. If these load factors are correct that route is going to get the chop. Eastern had bigger load factors than that from ncle to inv and that route was dropped as the factors were not good enough, I can't imagine them hanging onto a route with less than a 24% load factor.

Also surprised that globespan are still having a base at DTVA if they are only achieving 43% loads on TFS, thats a miserable load factor.

[HeathrowDictator]

Originally Posted by ncleflights

I can't imagine them hanging onto a route with less than a 24% load factor.

Also surprised that globespan are still having a base at DTVA if they are only achieving 43% loads on TFS, thats a miserable load factor.

NCLEFlights, two things:

1. The Brussels route is still very new - and does it not have some funding from elsewhere? I could be wrong with that but I am certain that OneNorthEast helped set the route up - possibly with a financial benefit to the airline?

2. If you see mmeteesside's post, he said he assumed 189 seats each way due to it being a shared aircraft and that was the very first rotation of the service. If I remember rightly the third week of operation there were only 40-50 pax travelling onward back to GLA therefore if it is still running at the same pax levels on the route, then a higher proportion of that will be MME pax.

Both of these "miserable" load factors as you put it are looking at very new routes - something everyone in the business knows need time to settle down and for the public to take to. I myself tried booking the MME-TFS flight for next summer and couldn't get the dates I wanted at first because (I presume), the flight was full. I know TFS is a winter destination, however I find it very unbelievable that in the naturally weaker winter months you will be getting more than a 70% load - so the fact it was in it's first week I wouldn't be suprised if 43% is accurate.

I still think the routes that GSM have announced from the airport are very sensible ones, and that they are routes which will be highly popular with the Northeast public.

As always - if I have my facts wrong, please feel free to correct me.


-HD-

[ncleflights]

Originally Posted by HeathrowDictator

NCLEFlights, two things:

1. The Brussels route is still very new - and does it not have some funding from elsewhere? I could be wrong with that but I am certain that OneNorthEast helped set the route up - possibly with a financial benefit to the airline?

As always - if I have my facts wrong, please feel free to correct me.


-HD-

Yes the Brussels route does have route development money thrown at it but in my example of Newcastle - Inveness it also had route development money from the Scottish Executive and was achieving higher load factors when Eastern pulled the plug. If the load factors are correct then even with the route development money Eastern are loosing money, the question you need to ask yourself is can a small airline afford to wait for the route to be grow - NO!!.

With regard to GSM again if the load factors are correct this is bad news for DTVA, again at Newcastle which currently have two low cost operators flying to TFS Jet2 and Thomsonfly both twice weekly, not once, and achieving much higher load factors.

In general though if the load factors given for all airlines are correct then DTVA is in real trouble as all loads are down some quite dramatically at nearby NCL and LBA both in the catchment area the opposite is happenning and passenger figures continue to grow. Surely it can't be long before the old argument raises its head about do we need a NE airport in between Leeds and Newcastle especially if indeed the downward trend in load factors is correct.

Also the reason you could not book the summer to TFS in GSM only have the route on sale to the end of March from DTVA

[10 DME ARC]

HD " I myself tried booking the MME-TFS flight for next summer and couldn't get the dates I wanted at first because (I presume), the flight was full."

Like Ncle said the TFS is only on sale until the 27th March!?!?

[DTVAirport]

GSM said that they were continuing Tenerife into the summer base operation, which means it should be bookable.

Part of the reason for Eastern Airways' success is if a route is not performing to expectations they won't keep it any longer than they have to, and they definitely won't wait for the route to 'settle in'. They've chopped routes a thousand times because of this so I'd say the BRU route is in grave danger. I've heard on numerous occasions that Eastern's fares aren't cheap either, which is probably half the reason the route has got poor loads.

Regards.

[10 DME ARC]

DTV Try it your self! At the moment it is not available after 27th March, no doubt some time in the future it will become bookable however HD could not have tried any dates in the summer on GSM web site!

[HeathrowDictator]

10DME and NCLEFlights:

Yes, I see now that it only goes to the end of March - however a few weeks ago when I was looking there were dates for the Summer available. DTVAirport is right - if they are going to fly it in the Summer then it should be bookable. I wonder why it has now been reduced to winter only again?

And with regards to EZE - I wasn't aware that NCL-INV was receiving funding too, in which case yes there could be every chance they may chop the MME-BRU route (although let's hope they give it a bit more time first!).

-HD-

[MME4eva]

Mme - Bru

It's disappointing to see that the BRU flights are going out less than quarter full on average but-like I said at its launch-its hardly surprising to see the route struggling.

The question remains..does Teesside need a BRU flight which is shaped towards business travellers? The area is harldy awash with companies with links to Brussels and apart from the odd MEP who is really going to use it at such high prices? Certainly when I have looked at fares they are ridiculously high so as sad as it is I don't predict BRU much longer particularly if BRS didn't last a year and had more potential in my opinion.

I really like Eastern as an outfit and they have shown loyalty to DTV in the past but for a route to survive that they offer at their prices it needs to have the same potential and demand as ABZ which really leaves only possibly BFS or BHD.

[Bodjit]

Hey 4eva, my family often fly ncl-iom with eastern and nearly every time they're the only ones on...

The prices though are eyewaterin' which may be the reason why. They tell me the service on board though is excellent

Maybe the BRU service is the same, personally i hope it picks up as MME over NCL every time for me and everyone I know, drivin' past the metrocentre is nothing but a pain in the arse for us... Oh and i happen to work there..

[HeathrowDictator]

The MME-BRU route was setup after consultation (I believe) with the companies who used to be known as ICI as they have offices in that part of the world. Since the prices are rather high (and yes, the service is excellent), they are the only real market for the route in the area as it is out of reach for the leisure traveller. Maybe EZE need to establish why those companies aren't using the route as much as maybe was expected (you never know, they may have only expected 20-30% loads), and maybe look at changing the times, adding an extra service or maybe lowering price slightly (although I don't know if price will be a factor on a corporate route).
-HD-

[onion]

Bol Zup your infomation is a little out.
To clear up a few things the controller on long term sick is no longer on it but is only validated on radar due to the need for radar controllers. As Heathrow Dictator says the problem is attrating and retaining staff on the lower wages. Incidently the figure he uses for MME is what the senior controllers are on, not the starting figure. As Heathrow Dictator says the radar unit can get very busy, as HD maybe finding out, where as the Tower can be very quiet. The underlying problem is there is a shortage of staff. This is almost entirely down to lack of funding of the ATC operation with low wages and a reluctance of the owners past and present to invest in equipment and better wages.

[BeaconInbound]

I agree with Onion with regards to the "long term sickness", and with HD on the upper wage limit. A standard TWR/APS controller at EGNV will expect to earn in the region of £41,500pa, and I believe the figures HD quoted were for Watch Supervisors - ie EGGP at £55,600pa and EGNV at approx £47,000pa, therefore standard controllers will be on less than the quoted figures.

Hopefully Peel will see eventually that the only way to attract more controllers to get MME to the staffing levels needed by SRG will be to increase the basic wage, or else lose more people to other units and therefore make the problem even worse.

[Wellington Bomber]

The loads on NCL/INV was not great and this was supposed to be the peak time. Do not compare INV with BRU

The Brussels flight has started with better loads than CWL and also with fares been higher the need to fill all seats is not necessary, not the case if low cost airline. I am sure the loads will increase with business traffic picking up after the new year

[DTVAirport]

There is an article in today's Northern Echo about a planning application for a new 74-bed hotel where the Lancaster Building currently lies at the airport.

I don't know exactly where that location is, but does it replace the 100-bed hotel which is part of the proposal for the 18,600sq metre business park?