STANSTED - 2
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I'm not saying we will see lots of long haul full service carriers. In actual fact, neither is Mr Harrison specifically! I'm just saying let's not rule anything out yet when it's too soon to make judgements about what the future holds.
I was merely stating that, regardless of flight frequency, the management of 2 non LCC's have thought "Yes, Stansted is the right choice for us" since MAG took over. Plus, having signed a deal to ALLOW major growth by EasyJet seems to be a step in the right direction so far.
It's a complex industry, and unless you work in the management for a specific airline or airport, will you know really what's likely to happen, so don't be so convinced it will never work and that Gatwick is only a waiting room essentially for Heathrow.
Gatwick is the 2nd busiest airport in the UK, and one that similarly to Stansted, serves London but is located in a fairly rural area outside of Greater London. How much of the traffic there is so eager to move to Heathrow if only it had the space? Probably very little.
I was merely stating that, regardless of flight frequency, the management of 2 non LCC's have thought "Yes, Stansted is the right choice for us" since MAG took over. Plus, having signed a deal to ALLOW major growth by EasyJet seems to be a step in the right direction so far.
It's a complex industry, and unless you work in the management for a specific airline or airport, will you know really what's likely to happen, so don't be so convinced it will never work and that Gatwick is only a waiting room essentially for Heathrow.
Gatwick is the 2nd busiest airport in the UK, and one that similarly to Stansted, serves London but is located in a fairly rural area outside of Greater London. How much of the traffic there is so eager to move to Heathrow if only it had the space? Probably very little.
Last edited by FRatSTN; 6th Jul 2013 at 20:38.
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How much of the traffic there is so eager to move to Heathrow if only it had the space?
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I think BA and Virgin would still have a smaller operation at Gatwick even if Heathrow had the space. The more leisure/holiday routes go from Gatwick, and major cities/hubs from Heathrow, ie. Heathrow is places like Singapore, New York, Delhi etc. whilst Gatwick is Orlando, Montego Bay, Male (Maldives). It's a clear split of different markets.
Also, EasyJet? Thomson, Monarch, Thomas Cook, Norwegian etc. ???
Also, EasyJet? Thomson, Monarch, Thomas Cook, Norwegian etc. ???
Last edited by FRatSTN; 7th Jul 2013 at 10:50.
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I think BA and Virgin would still have a smaller operation at Gatwick even if Heathrow had the space. The more leisure/holiday routes go from Gatwick, and major cities/hubs from Heathrow, ie. Heathrow is places like Singapore, New York, Delhi etc. whilst Gatwick is Orlando, Montego Bay, Male (Maldives). It's a clear split of different markets.
He's seeing potential and making Stansted as attractive as it can be for a range of airlines and destinations, clearly something that you can never see, or accept!
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 7th Jul 2013 at 11:49.
Skipness - I can think of 3 possible arguments
1 - Unless a megahub is designed as a megahub (think of any of the airports opened in Asia over the last 10 years serving 50+ million pax) it will likely have grown by evolution and thus may struggle to put a very large number of movements through one place. An airline that is the dominant carrier for a very large city may end up being forced to split its operation just to retain the market. Examples - BA at LCY or transavia(KLM's subsidiary) at Rotterdam
2 - Heathrow has higher landing fees and other direct and indirect costs of operation (eg delays). O&D leisure passengers may be more price sensitive and not always accept the higher fare arising from the increased costs.
3 - There's a lot of wealthy people living in Sussex, east Surrey and Kent who are quite happy to fly to/from Gatwick to the beach with their families and don't want the cost+time of going to Heathrow. Either BA leaves this market to Easyjet or it operates from Gatwick
1 - Unless a megahub is designed as a megahub (think of any of the airports opened in Asia over the last 10 years serving 50+ million pax) it will likely have grown by evolution and thus may struggle to put a very large number of movements through one place. An airline that is the dominant carrier for a very large city may end up being forced to split its operation just to retain the market. Examples - BA at LCY or transavia(KLM's subsidiary) at Rotterdam
2 - Heathrow has higher landing fees and other direct and indirect costs of operation (eg delays). O&D leisure passengers may be more price sensitive and not always accept the higher fare arising from the increased costs.
3 - There's a lot of wealthy people living in Sussex, east Surrey and Kent who are quite happy to fly to/from Gatwick to the beach with their families and don't want the cost+time of going to Heathrow. Either BA leaves this market to Easyjet or it operates from Gatwick
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 7th Jul 2013 at 12:10.
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Indeed.
The commercial benefit is that routes such as Montego Bay, Male etc. are point-to-point flights taking Brits on long-haul holidays. They do not require hub capacity therefore will never be served at Heathrow.
If BA had the space to increase traffic at Heathrow, they would look for new markets, such as those in South America and other major cities and hubs across the globe to offer direct flights to Heathrow and increase frequency on existing markets to maximise the amount of connecting passengers through its Heathrow hub. They would also need both tourist generating and tourist receiving services like those to major cities and hubs to do this.
They will never waste capacity at their hub by filling up slots with long haul flights to the Caribbean taking Brits on long-haul holidays in the sun for 2 weeks and routes that don't require hub capacity!
That's what Gatwick is for and why the markets are split this way. And as davidjohnson6 points out, the passengers these routes are attracting will not want or need to travel to Heathrow when they don't require the potential extra costs and time or a hub network for their travels.
What's the commercial benefit of becoming too dependent on one base by moving leisure routes into the hub when a bulk of your passengers don't even want or need a hub feed of traffic?
To what benefit? It's a clear market split because hub and spoke is prioritised at LHR and beach leisure is left at Gatwick. There's no business reason to keep it there if you get more space at your main base. Why duplicate staff and engineering costs when the market will move to LHR with you? What commercial benefit would there be in duplicating a split operation? None.
If BA had the space to increase traffic at Heathrow, they would look for new markets, such as those in South America and other major cities and hubs across the globe to offer direct flights to Heathrow and increase frequency on existing markets to maximise the amount of connecting passengers through its Heathrow hub. They would also need both tourist generating and tourist receiving services like those to major cities and hubs to do this.
They will never waste capacity at their hub by filling up slots with long haul flights to the Caribbean taking Brits on long-haul holidays in the sun for 2 weeks and routes that don't require hub capacity!
That's what Gatwick is for and why the markets are split this way. And as davidjohnson6 points out, the passengers these routes are attracting will not want or need to travel to Heathrow when they don't require the potential extra costs and time or a hub network for their travels.
What's the commercial benefit of becoming too dependent on one base by moving leisure routes into the hub when a bulk of your passengers don't even want or need a hub feed of traffic?
Last edited by FRatSTN; 7th Jul 2013 at 16:32.
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What is STN looking like for next year in terms of operators?
We have just booked to fly out from there next year (much prefer LGW, but STN came in at almost £100 cheaper).
I know it's overrun with FR and EZY at the moment and am kind of hoping all the expansion talk in terms of new airlines comes into fruition next year so I have something more interesting to look at before departure.
We have just booked to fly out from there next year (much prefer LGW, but STN came in at almost £100 cheaper).
I know it's overrun with FR and EZY at the moment and am kind of hoping all the expansion talk in terms of new airlines comes into fruition next year so I have something more interesting to look at before departure.
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Still too far off really to say, but Thomas Cook seem to be basing an A321 all season rather than the A320 with the A321 just the school holidays.
Thomson pretty similar to this year except they will no longer have the late Monday evening Corfu service in the peak season but will fly to Gran Canaria in the afternoon all season instead.
BH Air will fly from July 21st until the end of September.
All other carriers don't have any flights on sale yet but so far this looks only very slightly better than this year.
Thomson pretty similar to this year except they will no longer have the late Monday evening Corfu service in the peak season but will fly to Gran Canaria in the afternoon all season instead.
BH Air will fly from July 21st until the end of September.
All other carriers don't have any flights on sale yet but so far this looks only very slightly better than this year.
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Quote: "Andrew Harrison - welcome to "London" - although your airport is in rural Essex."
Obviously spending time with the bosses of FR, else talking to the guv'nor at BHX.
Would BA/VS close their LGW operations if it could all be accomodated at LHR? Guess it's a trade off between the expense of having a split operation and the amount of premium business generated at LGW (even for holidays).
This scenario is hypothetical because it envisages a 4-rwy LHR, with adequate slots, operating at maybe 70% capacity, without the delays for take off and landing. Under such circumstances, a business traveller- oriented U2 could become interested in LHR operations. Who can say?
Obviously spending time with the bosses of FR, else talking to the guv'nor at BHX.
Would BA/VS close their LGW operations if it could all be accomodated at LHR? Guess it's a trade off between the expense of having a split operation and the amount of premium business generated at LGW (even for holidays).
This scenario is hypothetical because it envisages a 4-rwy LHR, with adequate slots, operating at maybe 70% capacity, without the delays for take off and landing. Under such circumstances, a business traveller- oriented U2 could become interested in LHR operations. Who can say?
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new carrier?
Looks like 'little red' are close to a deal with stn.New freighter(6 times a week) coming to swissport.Easyjet contract up for renewal appears to be heading the same direction.Interesting times ahead.
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Little Red at STN? Cannot imagine what the idea behind that is. EZY and FR combination have STN well covered. Domestics are the domain of EZY and there is no interlining opportunities for VS ex STN....
Developing that idea, if VS are planning to expand the Little Red brand this may mean a demand for an increasing number of EI airbus aircraft that are not a plenty, or VS intending to take this inhouse themselves and acquire 320s in their own rite?
EI-BUD
Developing that idea, if VS are planning to expand the Little Red brand this may mean a demand for an increasing number of EI airbus aircraft that are not a plenty, or VS intending to take this inhouse themselves and acquire 320s in their own rite?
EI-BUD
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STANSTED - 2
Aaa ah the return of sat 1. Where have you been, the prune has been dull without you. Cargo carrier yes, although not sure how long swissport will keep them happy for. As for little red, not so sure about that one, unless Virgin are planning a return to STN, but on a longhaul scale this time. And the future is no longer orange
Last edited by TOWTEAMBASE; 9th Jul 2013 at 15:28.
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Quote: "Little Red at STN? Cannot imagine what the idea behind that is. EZY and FR combination have STN well covered. Domestics are the domain of EZY and there is no interlining opportunities for VS ex STN...."
Does sound bizarre! Would expect any expansion of Little Red to be something like GLA-LHR.
Wasn't the point of Little Red to replicate the former BD domestic routes that (a) provided some competition with BA; (b) provided connecting pax to VS (longhaul); and (c) provided connecting pax to other Star Alliance carriers?
This can't be done at STN....maybe Little Red is branching into cargo only ops as well?
Does sound bizarre! Would expect any expansion of Little Red to be something like GLA-LHR.
Wasn't the point of Little Red to replicate the former BD domestic routes that (a) provided some competition with BA; (b) provided connecting pax to VS (longhaul); and (c) provided connecting pax to other Star Alliance carriers?
This can't be done at STN....maybe Little Red is branching into cargo only ops as well?
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As per my post the Ryanair thread it's a little early to tell maybe. Some routes are on sale, but I'm still waiting on SZG for skiing hoping its not been dropped. Other routes to Austria are loaded now but I'm helpfully assured it will follow in due course and to hold tight. No doubt they'll be parking a few but my guess would be not as many as in recent winters.
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New Cargo flight.
Last edited by FRatSTN; 11th Jul 2013 at 13:52.