Carlisle
In their many statements about CAX during the long court battle, Stobarts have consistently talked about a based Atr-42 operating twice daily to SEN and daily to DUB (Aer Lingus on one side and Flybe on the other?), so lets not jump to any SEN based Atr-72 conclusions!
News & Star | News | Business | Objectors: Carlisle airport flights plan not viable
Louise Congdon, managing partner at York Aviation, says that flights to London Southend and Dublin would not be viable, even with a subsidy.
Her letter says that a Carlisle to London journey by air would be no quicker than the train, and Southend would offer few options for onward connecting flights.
It adds: “A realistic assessment of the current market for a service [to Southend] is of the order of 10,000 passengers per annum....below any realistic threshold for service viability.” Any subsidy, she says, would have to be “significantly greater” than the £250,000 promised by Stobart.
The letter concludes: “I remain of the view that air services are unlikely to be operated or, if operated at all, not sustained for more than a year or so once it is clear they are not capable of viable operation.”
It adds: “A realistic assessment of the current market for a service [to Southend] is of the order of 10,000 passengers per annum....below any realistic threshold for service viability.” Any subsidy, she says, would have to be “significantly greater” than the £250,000 promised by Stobart.
The letter concludes: “I remain of the view that air services are unlikely to be operated or, if operated at all, not sustained for more than a year or so once it is clear they are not capable of viable operation.”
Last edited by SWBKCB; 9th Jul 2014 at 18:48.
The future
Just like dtv. It will never suceed. History tells us catchment can not support a via able airport.just like peel. Stobart has anoher agenda. And it's not airports!!!
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the western edge of The Moor
Age: 66
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carlisle City Council have approved planning permission to build a Freight Distribution Depot & upgrade the runway.
An interview with Stobart's CEO has suggested flights to DUB & SEN next year could be a possibility.
Whilst SEN may be not too useful a link to Aer Lingus at DUB could be advantageous
News & Star | News | Carlisle council gives go-ahead to city airport overhaul
(though the pretty much sole objector will keep trying to stop them I expect)
A further interview with the Group CEO suggests the passenger flights will be a ATR 42 operation. An architects view show RJ85s as freight aircraft
An interview with Stobart's CEO has suggested flights to DUB & SEN next year could be a possibility.
Whilst SEN may be not too useful a link to Aer Lingus at DUB could be advantageous
News & Star | News | Carlisle council gives go-ahead to city airport overhaul
(though the pretty much sole objector will keep trying to stop them I expect)
A further interview with the Group CEO suggests the passenger flights will be a ATR 42 operation. An architects view show RJ85s as freight aircraft
Last edited by west lakes; 19th Aug 2014 at 18:50.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Crowle United Kingdom
Age: 49
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hiw long is tge runway going to be?. Can it Acceot Tge E170 or E190?
Ir even 737,600.
And what routes might be Viable.
Glasgow and Edinburgh are out of the question as they are too close, Unless they plan on doing An 'Aer Aran Islands, Conemara - Inishmore and the other aran islands). ,as a side note at Conemara when I was there out fkight was delayed slightly. In 45 mins i counted 7 take offs and landings.
Plus its just as busy on Inishmore.
Anyway the point if tgstvtale is, Is there a market for realky short intercity flights like they had years agio and like The Aer Arran Islands ops. (Thecreal original Aer Aran). Related ti the one just biught by stobart.
But coukd it work to operate 'Shuttke fkights' Using small Aircraft to the larger airports like Manchester.
Perhaos a J31. Or something.
I see Carlisle airport msybe if that runway is long enough, attracting incoming germsn and ither EU tourist flights . But agsin zi dont know if thats going to be possible.
I reckon within a short while of ipening , Youl see more routes and operators.
What routes do you guys think may be viable from there?.
Though if Scotland gets its way then tgsts going to be The UK's most Northely sirport. In which case id go fir expansion to take 737/A320 and try temo as much traffic from Edinburgh and Especially Glasgow. As there after battking the M8 uts nearly quicker to get to Carlisle.
Anyway excellent news . Is there a Website for it ?
Ir even 737,600.
And what routes might be Viable.
Glasgow and Edinburgh are out of the question as they are too close, Unless they plan on doing An 'Aer Aran Islands, Conemara - Inishmore and the other aran islands). ,as a side note at Conemara when I was there out fkight was delayed slightly. In 45 mins i counted 7 take offs and landings.
Plus its just as busy on Inishmore.
Anyway the point if tgstvtale is, Is there a market for realky short intercity flights like they had years agio and like The Aer Arran Islands ops. (Thecreal original Aer Aran). Related ti the one just biught by stobart.
But coukd it work to operate 'Shuttke fkights' Using small Aircraft to the larger airports like Manchester.
Perhaos a J31. Or something.
I see Carlisle airport msybe if that runway is long enough, attracting incoming germsn and ither EU tourist flights . But agsin zi dont know if thats going to be possible.
I reckon within a short while of ipening , Youl see more routes and operators.
What routes do you guys think may be viable from there?.
Though if Scotland gets its way then tgsts going to be The UK's most Northely sirport. In which case id go fir expansion to take 737/A320 and try temo as much traffic from Edinburgh and Especially Glasgow. As there after battking the M8 uts nearly quicker to get to Carlisle.
Anyway excellent news . Is there a Website for it ?
Could well be wrong but understood the whole point of Aer Arann Islands was to connect offshore islands to the Irish mainland - perhaps similiar to Loganair offering service to Orkney, Shetland and the Hebrides, or the link from Newquay to the Isles of Scilly. Barring the Isle of Man which is already well connected to the UK, I can't think of many small populated offshore islands for which Carlisle (rather than Glasgow or Liverpool) would be the natural hub.
As for a J31 service to major cities in the UK, it would have to be competitive with the train. London might work, but lack of runway capacity and consequent high airport charges rules out the best options of Heathrow, Gatwick and City making London a less attractive option than might be hoped. As you say perhaps also a once per week to Dusseldorf if Carlisle runway is big enough. Worth noting that Cumbria is a rural area with relatively low population density and Carlisle is not a major city like Newcastle.
As for a J31 service to major cities in the UK, it would have to be competitive with the train. London might work, but lack of runway capacity and consequent high airport charges rules out the best options of Heathrow, Gatwick and City making London a less attractive option than might be hoped. As you say perhaps also a once per week to Dusseldorf if Carlisle runway is big enough. Worth noting that Cumbria is a rural area with relatively low population density and Carlisle is not a major city like Newcastle.
Though if Scotland gets its way then tgsts going to be The UK's most Northely sirport. In which case id go fir expansion to take 737/A320 and try temo as much traffic from Edinburgh and Especially Glasgow. As there after battking the M8 uts nearly quicker to get to Carlisle.
Being serious, I presume you mean England, in which case Newcastle is further north.
The airport is owned by Stobart who own Stobart Air, who fly for Aer Lingus and Flybe and who own Southend Airport. The only flights being proposed are to Dublin and Southend by Atr-42, which Stobarts own consultants say will need a subsidy of £250K.
Given this, and the lack of navigation aids and other facilities, any other flights seem unlikely (even a regional service to Walney Island!)
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 2,691
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can we have this in English please!
Sorry, but when I am reading threads I don't want to have to try too hard, but for heavens sake what are:-
and most confusing of all
I would have hoped that by the time we'd reached early middle age we'd be able to spell, or take the time to produce something readable!
tge
Shuttke fkights
tgstvtale
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the western edge of The Moor
Age: 66
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hiw long is tge runway going to be?.
The only proposals stated is for an ATR 42 for pax and a designer's model shows HS 146 freighters.
Looking at Google earth there is no easy viable option for increasing runway length without diverting roads
The current 07/25 runway could probably sustain ATR 42/72 operations, albeit with weight limitations, especially with a wet runway. If something larger is envisaged the problem is probably not extending the runway length but extending the declared distances to something nearer the current 1834 metres runway length.
The current restricted landing distances could be of more significance that the take-off runs available.The problem appears to be roads passing through the undershoot to both runways which then result in significant reductions.
The roads themselves are not the cause of this, its the 4.8 metres above the road level (to allow for a high sided vehicles) that requires the insetting of the thresholds.
Traffic control is a possibility, but as jumping the lights appears to be a national sport in the UK, CAA may not accept this a resolution.
If the road situation is resolved, the current runway with a 30 metre width could result in a take-off run/landing distance of up to 1799 metres. If anything greater is required, the runway will need returning to its original width, 45 metres?
Next problem would be re-locating the approach lighting, which may be outside the aerodrome boundary. Is this feasible?
What is the intended market for the airport, PAX and/or freight? If freight is intended presumably much larger aircraft will be required which will require the runway widening and extending plus the taxiway/apron infrastructure to support them. Hope Stobart have deep pockets if this is intended.
The current restricted landing distances could be of more significance that the take-off runs available.The problem appears to be roads passing through the undershoot to both runways which then result in significant reductions.
The roads themselves are not the cause of this, its the 4.8 metres above the road level (to allow for a high sided vehicles) that requires the insetting of the thresholds.
Traffic control is a possibility, but as jumping the lights appears to be a national sport in the UK, CAA may not accept this a resolution.
If the road situation is resolved, the current runway with a 30 metre width could result in a take-off run/landing distance of up to 1799 metres. If anything greater is required, the runway will need returning to its original width, 45 metres?
Next problem would be re-locating the approach lighting, which may be outside the aerodrome boundary. Is this feasible?
What is the intended market for the airport, PAX and/or freight? If freight is intended presumably much larger aircraft will be required which will require the runway widening and extending plus the taxiway/apron infrastructure to support them. Hope Stobart have deep pockets if this is intended.
Pie in the sky!
Come on guys...it will never happen! Stobarts want the land for a distribution centre..the airport is ( an expensive) smoke screen. There are at least 2 other better sites for their centre...not the agricultural(inland)Crosby area!!!
Not sure if and why they are pushing this site..maybe a local could tell us? The airport will never work and cost a fortune to develop.
Also. Read here? 250000k. Subsidy for services? Is that paid by the local council?its already cost 500k
Visions of grandeur me thinks....just like here at DTV!!
Not sure if and why they are pushing this site..maybe a local could tell us? The airport will never work and cost a fortune to develop.
Also. Read here? 250000k. Subsidy for services? Is that paid by the local council?its already cost 500k
Visions of grandeur me thinks....just like here at DTV!!
Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult
Join Date: May 2007
Location: On the western edge of The Moor
Age: 66
Posts: 1,100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come on guys...it will never happen! Stobarts want the land for a distribution centre
The PP was for the distribution centre and the runway upgrade is just part of it. Anyone local knows that!
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Crowle United Kingdom
Age: 49
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry im havimg eyesight
Troubke due to floaters which are bad just now plus I swear I type the right words but the spell corrector keeps changing as I hit post.
Though this phone needs an os rebuild.
Its corrupted.
As For Carlisle I could see an Aer Aran Islands type service to Walney using probably Islanders .
Working well.
The Road from Barrow is Long. Id bet such a srrvice woukd becas buay As Conemara Airport.
If they ran it lime a bus service.
With Decent bus kinks to The Centre of Carlisle. And The Railway statiin .
Not to Mention The possible Business passengers yiud get From BAE systems , Heading to London.
So az an Idea that woukd make for a busy place.
But who would operate it?.
Coukd loganair spare any islanders?.
Or Woukdcstobart just buy them new abd Brand them Aer Aran
Troubke due to floaters which are bad just now plus I swear I type the right words but the spell corrector keeps changing as I hit post.
Though this phone needs an os rebuild.
Its corrupted.
As For Carlisle I could see an Aer Aran Islands type service to Walney using probably Islanders .
Working well.
The Road from Barrow is Long. Id bet such a srrvice woukd becas buay As Conemara Airport.
If they ran it lime a bus service.
With Decent bus kinks to The Centre of Carlisle. And The Railway statiin .
Not to Mention The possible Business passengers yiud get From BAE systems , Heading to London.
So az an Idea that woukd make for a busy place.
But who would operate it?.
Coukd loganair spare any islanders?.
Or Woukdcstobart just buy them new abd Brand them Aer Aran
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Scotland
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Folk from Barrow would be quicker using MAN. CAX-SEN (who really wants to go to Southend anyway??) would be up against a very quick train service, I'm not sure there is enough demand for an air service too.
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Essex
Age: 62
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What a truly STUPID STUPID post from GrahamK. One must clearly assume that he / she has an agenda to support another airport.
Well maybe Graham - people might enjoy the 46 minute journey to Stratford??? Are you just deliberately talking garbage or are you in the pay of some other airport?? Wow - what a strange person.
Well maybe Graham - people might enjoy the 46 minute journey to Stratford??? Are you just deliberately talking garbage or are you in the pay of some other airport?? Wow - what a strange person.
Possibly an ever so slight over reaction there? 
There is probably little traffic between Carlisle and Southend itself - how many domestic routes has SEN got?
So if SEN is being used as a London Gateway, then the time benefits over the West Coast Main line aren't great. Of course, this relates to city centre to city centre travel and not everybody does that! I seem to remember this was discussed at great length early in this thread...
Changing subject, can somebody reminder me what nav aids CAX has (seem to remember not much) and whether there are any plans to upgrade?
There is probably little traffic between Carlisle and Southend itself - how many domestic routes has SEN got?
So if SEN is being used as a London Gateway, then the time benefits over the West Coast Main line aren't great. Of course, this relates to city centre to city centre travel and not everybody does that! I seem to remember this was discussed at great length early in this thread...
Changing subject, can somebody reminder me what nav aids CAX has (seem to remember not much) and whether there are any plans to upgrade?
The navaids at CAX are an NDB and a DME. There are NDB(L)/DME procedures published for both ends, with OCHs for a Cat B aircraft ( I believe the ATRs fall in this category) of 500ft on 07 and 407ft on 25.
I don't know what is planned but I guess they would want an ILS at one end at least in order to lower the landing minima to improve schedule regularity once (if) airline services commence.
I would think they also would need to improve the approach lighting in order to get decent Cat 1 ILS minima. Runway centre line lights would improve take off minima and these could be incorporated when the runway is rebuilt. All a question I suppose of how much Stobart are prepared to spend on a loss making operation of which the primary function is to get them their distribution centre.
I don't know what is planned but I guess they would want an ILS at one end at least in order to lower the landing minima to improve schedule regularity once (if) airline services commence.
I would think they also would need to improve the approach lighting in order to get decent Cat 1 ILS minima. Runway centre line lights would improve take off minima and these could be incorporated when the runway is rebuilt. All a question I suppose of how much Stobart are prepared to spend on a loss making operation of which the primary function is to get them their distribution centre.
