ABERDEEN
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Fly Globespan
We are thinking of taking a winter break to LPA and flying with GSM. I have a couple of questions. Firstly is there a refuelling stop with this service? Secondly, anyone know what type of plane they use and what the economy seat pitch is? I have had a look on GSM website and it doesn't tell you anything about the planes. I see you can select your seat and pick the emergency exits seats at £12.50pp
Our holidays are usually to Europe (Germany, Austria etc) so we usually always fly BA on sheduled flights but quite fancy a nice week in the sun in a quiet resort it Gran Canaria and the flights from ABZ are a pretty good price.
Thanks in anticipation.
Our holidays are usually to Europe (Germany, Austria etc) so we usually always fly BA on sheduled flights but quite fancy a nice week in the sun in a quiet resort it Gran Canaria and the flights from ABZ are a pretty good price.
Thanks in anticipation.
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Service currently due to operate with 737-700 series with no fuel stop outbound. No planned fuel stop on en return but always weather dependent. You should be more concerned as to whether service actually operates. GSM have a habit of pulling routes before they start a la ACE. Seat pitch is 29-30" as standard lo co /charter. Emergo exit seats a must. No inflight entertainment and buy on board catering.
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CabinCrewe
Thanks very much for answering my above questions. I take your point re the fact they could pull the route. I assume no other operator will be doing LPA over the winter? I really do not fancy the trek to GLA especially in February.
Thanks very much for answering my above questions. I take your point re the fact they could pull the route. I assume no other operator will be doing LPA over the winter? I really do not fancy the trek to GLA especially in February.
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The seat pitch on the B737-700 is actually very comfortable, as it is with all of our A/C. It's around 30-31". The extra-legroom seats are even better - lots of space. I am sure that their flights for W08 will run as scheduled. They never announced the ACE flight and it was never on sale. Though it was supposed to be announced, GSM are now operating the charter for Thomas Cook to TFS on the day that the ACE would have gone on sale. Good news is that GSM are now committed to operating a Winter base from ABZ.
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ATP's - Never mind payload, it's reliability you need to worry about
Regarding ATP reliability, the following should just about cover it.
Undaunted by technical realities, the design team at British Aerospace has announced plans for the ATP-XL, promising more noise, reduced payload, a lower cruise speed, and increased pilot workload.
We spoke to Fred, a former British Rail boilermaker, and now Chief Project Engineer. Fred was responsible for developing many original and creative design flaws in the service of his former employer,
and will be incorporating these in the new ATP-XL technology under a licensing agreement. Fred reassured ATP pilots, however, that all fundamental design flaws of the original model had been retained. Further good news is that the XL version is available as a retrofit.
Among the new measures is that of locking the ailerons in the central position, following airborne and simulator tests which showed that whilst pilots of average strength were able to achieve up to 30 degrees of control wheel deflection, this produced no appreciable variation in the net flight path of the aircraft. Thus the removal of costly and unnecessary linkages has been possible, and the rudder has been nominated as the primary directional control.
In keeping with this new philosophy, but to retain commonality for crews transitioning to the XL, additional resistance to foot pressure has been built in to the rudder bias system to prevent over-controlling in gusty conditions (defined as those in which wind velocity exceeds 3 knots).
An outstanding feature of ATP technology has always been the adaptation of the PW100 engine, which mounted in any other aircraft in the free world is known for its low vibration levels. The ATP adaptations cause it to shake and batter the airframe, gradually crystallising the main spar, lock the port maingear after retraction, desynchronise the accompanying engine, and simulate the sound of fifty skeletons fornicating in an aluminium dustbin. BAe will not disclose the technology they applied in preserving this effect in the XL but Fred assures us it will be perpetrated in later models and sees it as a strong selling point. "After all, the Concorde makes a lot of noise" he said, "and look how fast that goes."
However design documents clandestinely recovered from the BAe shredder have solved a question that has puzzled aerodynamicists and pilots for many years... how does the ATP actually fly ?? These documents disclose that it is actually noise which causes the ATP to fly - the vibration set up by the engines, and amplified by the airframe, in turn causes the air molecules above the wing to oscillate at atomic frequency, reducing their density and creating lift. This can be demonstrated by sudden closure of the throttles, which causes the aircraft to fall from the sky. As a result, lift is proportional to noise, rather than speed.
Fred was at pains to point out that during the take-off phase, the previous equation is not applicable as the net take-off flight path is completely proportional to the willpower of the flightdeck, cabin crew and passengers combined. "Any single person not willing the aircraft to become airborne could cause a major accident," he commented.
In the driver's cab (as Fred describes it) ergonomic measures will ensure that long-term ATP pilots' deafness does not cause in-flight dozing. Orthopaedic surgeons have designed a cockpit layout and seat to maximise backache, en-route insomnia, chronic irritability and terminal (post-flight) lethargy. Redesigned "bullworker" elastic aileron cables, now disconnected from the control surfaces, increase pilot workload and fitness. Special noise retention cabin lining is an innovation on the XL, and it is hoped in later models to develop cabin noise to a level which will enable pilots to relate ear-pain directly to engine power, eliminating the need for engine instruments altogether.
We were offered an opportunity to fly the XL at British Aerospace's development facility, adjacent to the BritRail tearooms at Little Chortling. (The flight was originally to have been conducted at the Prestwick plant but aircraft of BAe design are now prohibited from operating in Scottish airspace during avalanche season). For our mission profile, the XL was loaded with Benbecula passengers for a standard 100 nm trip with BritRail reserves, carrying three pilots (all Captains, due to crew shortages) and 68+40 passengers (all from the same family) to maximise discomfort.
Passenger loading is unchanged, the normal 'prop rotating in wind of 5 knots, due to slack groundstaff failing to secure it' syndrome, inflicting serious lacerations on 71% of boarding passengers, and there was the usual confusion in selecting a seat appropriate to the nearest emergency exit. The facility for the clothing of embarking passengers to remove oil slicks from engine cowls during loading has been thoughtfully retained.
Start-up is standard, and taxiing, as in the standard ATP is accomplished by brute force. Takeoff calculations called for a 250-decibel power setting, and the rotation force for the (neutral) C of G was calculated at 180 ft/lbs. of backpressure.
Initial warning of an engine failure during takeoff is provided by a reduction in vibration of the flight instrument panel. Complete seizure of one engine is indicated by the momentary illusion that the engines have suddenly and inexplicably become synchronised. Otherwise, identification of the failed engine is achieved by comparing the vibration levels of the windows on either side of the cabin. (Relative passenger pallor has been found to be an unreliable guide on many ATP routes because of ethnic consideration).
Shortly after takeoff the XL's chief test pilot, Capt. Bloggs, demonstrated the extent to whch modern aeronautical design has left the ATP untouched; he simulated pilot incapacitation by slumping forward onto the control column, simultaneously applying full right rudder and bleeding from the ears.
Whilst initially noting nothing out of the ordinary, on discovery that Capt. Bloggs actually was incapacitated, the crew of the XL discovered that, like its predecessor, it demonstrated total control rigidity and continued undisturbed. Power was then reduced to 249 decibels for cruise, and we carried out some comparisons of actual flight performance with graph predictions. At 5000 ft and ISA, we achieved a vibration amplitude of 500 CPS and 240 decibels, for a fuel flow of 700kgs/hr making the ATP-XL the most efficient converter of fuel to noise after the Titan rocket.
Exploring the Constant noise/Variable noise concepts, we found that in a VNE dive, vibration reached its design maximum at 1000 CPS, at which point the limiting factor is the emulsification of human tissue. The catatonic condition of long-term ATP pilots is attributed to this syndrome, which commences in the cerebral cortex and spreads outwards. We asked Capt. Bloggs what he considered the outstanding features of the XL. He cupped his hand behind his ear and shouted "Whazzat?"
We returned to British Aerospace, convinced that the XL model retains the marque's most memorable features, whilst showing some significant and worthwhile regressions.
BAe are not, however, resting on their laurels. Plans are already advanced for the HS748-XL and noise tunnel testing has commenced. The basis of preliminary design and performance specifications is that lift increases as the square of the noise, and as the principle of acoustic lift is further developed, a later five-engined vertical take-off model is also a possibility.
Regarding ATP reliability, the following should just about cover it.
Undaunted by technical realities, the design team at British Aerospace has announced plans for the ATP-XL, promising more noise, reduced payload, a lower cruise speed, and increased pilot workload.
We spoke to Fred, a former British Rail boilermaker, and now Chief Project Engineer. Fred was responsible for developing many original and creative design flaws in the service of his former employer,
and will be incorporating these in the new ATP-XL technology under a licensing agreement. Fred reassured ATP pilots, however, that all fundamental design flaws of the original model had been retained. Further good news is that the XL version is available as a retrofit.
Among the new measures is that of locking the ailerons in the central position, following airborne and simulator tests which showed that whilst pilots of average strength were able to achieve up to 30 degrees of control wheel deflection, this produced no appreciable variation in the net flight path of the aircraft. Thus the removal of costly and unnecessary linkages has been possible, and the rudder has been nominated as the primary directional control.
In keeping with this new philosophy, but to retain commonality for crews transitioning to the XL, additional resistance to foot pressure has been built in to the rudder bias system to prevent over-controlling in gusty conditions (defined as those in which wind velocity exceeds 3 knots).
An outstanding feature of ATP technology has always been the adaptation of the PW100 engine, which mounted in any other aircraft in the free world is known for its low vibration levels. The ATP adaptations cause it to shake and batter the airframe, gradually crystallising the main spar, lock the port maingear after retraction, desynchronise the accompanying engine, and simulate the sound of fifty skeletons fornicating in an aluminium dustbin. BAe will not disclose the technology they applied in preserving this effect in the XL but Fred assures us it will be perpetrated in later models and sees it as a strong selling point. "After all, the Concorde makes a lot of noise" he said, "and look how fast that goes."
However design documents clandestinely recovered from the BAe shredder have solved a question that has puzzled aerodynamicists and pilots for many years... how does the ATP actually fly ?? These documents disclose that it is actually noise which causes the ATP to fly - the vibration set up by the engines, and amplified by the airframe, in turn causes the air molecules above the wing to oscillate at atomic frequency, reducing their density and creating lift. This can be demonstrated by sudden closure of the throttles, which causes the aircraft to fall from the sky. As a result, lift is proportional to noise, rather than speed.
Fred was at pains to point out that during the take-off phase, the previous equation is not applicable as the net take-off flight path is completely proportional to the willpower of the flightdeck, cabin crew and passengers combined. "Any single person not willing the aircraft to become airborne could cause a major accident," he commented.
In the driver's cab (as Fred describes it) ergonomic measures will ensure that long-term ATP pilots' deafness does not cause in-flight dozing. Orthopaedic surgeons have designed a cockpit layout and seat to maximise backache, en-route insomnia, chronic irritability and terminal (post-flight) lethargy. Redesigned "bullworker" elastic aileron cables, now disconnected from the control surfaces, increase pilot workload and fitness. Special noise retention cabin lining is an innovation on the XL, and it is hoped in later models to develop cabin noise to a level which will enable pilots to relate ear-pain directly to engine power, eliminating the need for engine instruments altogether.
We were offered an opportunity to fly the XL at British Aerospace's development facility, adjacent to the BritRail tearooms at Little Chortling. (The flight was originally to have been conducted at the Prestwick plant but aircraft of BAe design are now prohibited from operating in Scottish airspace during avalanche season). For our mission profile, the XL was loaded with Benbecula passengers for a standard 100 nm trip with BritRail reserves, carrying three pilots (all Captains, due to crew shortages) and 68+40 passengers (all from the same family) to maximise discomfort.
Passenger loading is unchanged, the normal 'prop rotating in wind of 5 knots, due to slack groundstaff failing to secure it' syndrome, inflicting serious lacerations on 71% of boarding passengers, and there was the usual confusion in selecting a seat appropriate to the nearest emergency exit. The facility for the clothing of embarking passengers to remove oil slicks from engine cowls during loading has been thoughtfully retained.
Start-up is standard, and taxiing, as in the standard ATP is accomplished by brute force. Takeoff calculations called for a 250-decibel power setting, and the rotation force for the (neutral) C of G was calculated at 180 ft/lbs. of backpressure.
Initial warning of an engine failure during takeoff is provided by a reduction in vibration of the flight instrument panel. Complete seizure of one engine is indicated by the momentary illusion that the engines have suddenly and inexplicably become synchronised. Otherwise, identification of the failed engine is achieved by comparing the vibration levels of the windows on either side of the cabin. (Relative passenger pallor has been found to be an unreliable guide on many ATP routes because of ethnic consideration).
Shortly after takeoff the XL's chief test pilot, Capt. Bloggs, demonstrated the extent to whch modern aeronautical design has left the ATP untouched; he simulated pilot incapacitation by slumping forward onto the control column, simultaneously applying full right rudder and bleeding from the ears.
Whilst initially noting nothing out of the ordinary, on discovery that Capt. Bloggs actually was incapacitated, the crew of the XL discovered that, like its predecessor, it demonstrated total control rigidity and continued undisturbed. Power was then reduced to 249 decibels for cruise, and we carried out some comparisons of actual flight performance with graph predictions. At 5000 ft and ISA, we achieved a vibration amplitude of 500 CPS and 240 decibels, for a fuel flow of 700kgs/hr making the ATP-XL the most efficient converter of fuel to noise after the Titan rocket.
Exploring the Constant noise/Variable noise concepts, we found that in a VNE dive, vibration reached its design maximum at 1000 CPS, at which point the limiting factor is the emulsification of human tissue. The catatonic condition of long-term ATP pilots is attributed to this syndrome, which commences in the cerebral cortex and spreads outwards. We asked Capt. Bloggs what he considered the outstanding features of the XL. He cupped his hand behind his ear and shouted "Whazzat?"
We returned to British Aerospace, convinced that the XL model retains the marque's most memorable features, whilst showing some significant and worthwhile regressions.
BAe are not, however, resting on their laurels. Plans are already advanced for the HS748-XL and noise tunnel testing has commenced. The basis of preliminary design and performance specifications is that lift increases as the square of the noise, and as the principle of acoustic lift is further developed, a later five-engined vertical take-off model is also a possibility.
Brilliant! - lol
CH3CH2OH
See Eastern launching daily Saab 2000 flight from 12th Jan 2009, Su-Fr.
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Following on from TAD's answer about the east apron, I have often wondered - especially in recent years - why there are no bizjets based here. They always seem to fly in from elsewhere first to carry out the charter. Would it not be cheaper overall to have one based here, & it may bring whoever did this an advantage over competitors, to have one on station rather than someone else having to factor in costs of positioning to/from ABZ.
I remember Peregrine basing a Learjet in the 80s for a while.
Or is it really the case that costs of using ABZ - & a lack of room as TAD alluded to - are the problems. More tarmac required indeed!
Can't believe that Peregrine was the only time that a based bizjet has been comtemplated/implemented?
I remember Peregrine basing a Learjet in the 80s for a while.
Or is it really the case that costs of using ABZ - & a lack of room as TAD alluded to - are the problems. More tarmac required indeed!
Can't believe that Peregrine was the only time that a based bizjet has been comtemplated/implemented?
Depends how you view things, 'Biz jets' or 'business aircraft' come under two main groups, a 'corporate aircraft' owned either by an individual or a company for private use only... or a fractional ownership/charter operation.
Aberdeen has had in the past an 'N' registered Conquest turbo prop based here and also a Golden Eagle, both privately owned and operated. The well known chap who owned the conquest has moved to sunnier climes and the Golden Eagle 'bought the farm' at Humberside a few years ago.
The majority of Biz jet movements in Aberdeen would appear to be from the likes of Netjets who dont need to base an aircraft up here but they do have crews using the North East as a gateway.
It has always surprised me that so far none of the wealthy oil support companies have felt the need to own and operate a corporate aircraft up here, especially considering the crap airline route network here and the increasing hassle in airports with security etc.
However, it is being looked at!
Aberdeen has had in the past an 'N' registered Conquest turbo prop based here and also a Golden Eagle, both privately owned and operated. The well known chap who owned the conquest has moved to sunnier climes and the Golden Eagle 'bought the farm' at Humberside a few years ago.
The majority of Biz jet movements in Aberdeen would appear to be from the likes of Netjets who dont need to base an aircraft up here but they do have crews using the North East as a gateway.
It has always surprised me that so far none of the wealthy oil support companies have felt the need to own and operate a corporate aircraft up here, especially considering the crap airline route network here and the increasing hassle in airports with security etc.
However, it is being looked at!
Last edited by youngskywalker; 2nd Oct 2008 at 11:11.
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Well with the global economy in crisis, oil prices are now heading south, $80-ish dollars is it?
Great news for Aberdeen/ABZ...NOT.
Bankrupt cooncil, bankrupt fitba team, North Sea soon to be uneconomic...
Ah well mustn't grumble...the helis may soon not be required...
Great news for Aberdeen/ABZ...NOT.
Bankrupt cooncil, bankrupt fitba team, North Sea soon to be uneconomic...
Ah well mustn't grumble...the helis may soon not be required...
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Papa, Papa...I stopped plane spotting & threw away my jacket 15yrs ago...
But I have been around long enough to remember the original oil slump of 1986& what it did.
I did sort of have my tongue in my cheek, but the UKCS as an oil province IS getting older - unescapable fact.
Ooh hang on...is that a Citation I see...damn, rumbled....
But I have been around long enough to remember the original oil slump of 1986& what it did.
I did sort of have my tongue in my cheek, but the UKCS as an oil province IS getting older - unescapable fact.
Ooh hang on...is that a Citation I see...damn, rumbled....
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Yip me too and I am still in the thick of it.
BUT talk of a 1986 esque slump is way off beam even at $80. Most NS assets are developed assuming an oil price of $20-$30 and that ain't going to happen just like my pension and shares are safe ...... hold on .... whats happened there?
Its time ABZ looked beyond Oil as its saviour anyway.
BUT talk of a 1986 esque slump is way off beam even at $80. Most NS assets are developed assuming an oil price of $20-$30 and that ain't going to happen just like my pension and shares are safe ...... hold on .... whats happened there?
Its time ABZ looked beyond Oil as its saviour anyway.