Emirates

[Albert Hall]

An increasingly ridiculous debate.

The EK 777 fleet will have Newcastle in the nav database, airfield plates readily available to the crews in whatever type of trip kit they carry, and all safety and handling audits completed for Newcastle as they fly there daily. Crew likely familiar with Newcastle and EK-trained ground staff in place at NCL to handle both an arrival and a departure. I very much doubt EK will maintain this currency for Prestwick where they might fly once in a blue moon.

That's even before you consider the weather that occasioned the diversion was so poor that road travel from PIK to GLA might well have been just as difficult as NCL to GLA - so distance becomes a disadvantage if the roads are decked with snow.

Unless an airline has cause to nominate an alternate and set it up as such to maintain all of the above capability for it to be used, then do not expect to see it being used as the #1 above another airport to which the same airline flies regularly. That goes for EK just as much as any other airline, and the mantra is true with increasing and direct proportion to the size of aircraft. Randomly electing to land a 777-300 into an airport to which you and your operator have never flown before is not a venture to be undertaken lightly, and certainly not at the drop of a pilot's hat when a no-risk alternative exists relatively close by.

[PIK3141]

Well I'll answer some or the ranters on this thread. My original suggestion was that the aircraft could have landed at PIK, fuelled with the passengers aboard then flown back to GLA, arriving perhaps two hours late, and allowed the outbound flight to depart perhaps two hours late, with the waiting crew at GLA flying that flight. Instead the aircraft arrived at GLA about 22 hours late, without at least some of its passengers who travelled by train to Edinburgh and home the next day. The outbound pax were delayed the 22 hours or so. If any of you think that Emirates or any other airline are ill equipped to land at PIK then if you are flying in northern UK airspace and have a comms failure or worse then the Typhoons will escort you into PIK so you had better rethink that one (Egyptair B777 a few years ago and others more recently). Similarly tech diversions (Air France B777 in December resulting in 2 B777s handled side by side) land at PIK. It may require thinking ahead (eg Ryanairs calling PIK advising they may divert) to in this case get the Fire category up from 7 to 9, 30 minutes notice. RAF A330s regularly depart PIK with full pax load, and of course B777Fs, B744Fs and B748Fs are daily visitors. All handling is inhouse, without the help of Swissport which may be the root of some of the ranting. Many posts here give no consideration to the passengers, who from some Facebook posts describe what happened as a debacle. And to question if PIK have Hi-Los etc just shows pure ignorance or agenda at work. For me it was all about the passengers, and what did not need to happen to them, but maybe they are of little or no consideration for some here. Hopefully Emirates are giving some consideration to what happened, and the cost of what happened.

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

The point of my post is that there are many unanswered questions about PIK for Emirates. YOU may know every divert that has happened in the last 20 years, but do EK operations control? Bare in mind the size of the network, you cannot expect knowledge / contracts in place for every airfield in the world for a once every year event? Everyone is merely trying to suggest theres a little more than siting on the ground for 2 hours with passengers onboard and taking off again. Operations think worse case scenario, and take the safest bet. This of course might not be what the passengers understandably want as it might mean diverting further away

[Skipness One Echo]

Has the Emirates GLA flight used PIK as a diversion point before? I think yes? But this is nothing new, previously NW would divert to PIK but AA always preferred MAN, nothing much changes in some ways.

[willy wombat]

This whole debate is bonkers but I have one question for PIK3141 - your contention is that EK could have diverted to PIK, refuelled with pax on board and repositioned to GLA. If that is the case why could the same not have happened at NCL - that is refuel and reposition to GLA?

[inOban]

Surely this was a professional decision by a professional pilot in deteriorating weather. Whether the pilot's line manager will wish to discuss the decision, perhaps.


I assume the long delay in NCL was because the weather was advancing from NW to SE and the plane was therefore stuck after landing.

[LFT]

The EK 777 has diverted to PIK before, held on the ground, refuelled, then back up to GLA when it re-opened, much more convenient for all concerned I'd have thought, crew, and pax.

[LFT]

Originally Posted by willy wombat

This whole debate is bonkers but I have one question for PIK3141 - your contention is that EK could have diverted to PIK, refuelled with pax on board and repositioned to GLA. If that is the case why could the same not have happened at NCL - that is refuel and reposition to GLA?

NCL is 3 hours away on a good day. At PIK you walk over a bridge and there's a train service to Glasgow Central every 20 minutes, 40 minutes away.

[SWBKCB]

Originally Posted by LFT

The EK 777 has diverted to PIK before, held on the ground, refuelled, then back up to GLA when it re-opened, much more convenient for all concerned I'd have thought, crew, and pax.

If the flying time is roughly the same, how is that much more convenient?

NCL is 3 hours away on a good day. At PIK you walk over a bridge and there's a train service to Glasgow Central every 20 minutes, 40 minutes away

Except on diverted flights, you just don't get off the plane and wander off to make your own way home.

[LFT]

Originally Posted by SWBKCB

If the flying time is roughly the same, how is that much more convenient?

Flying time from NCL to GLA is the same as from PIK to GLA?

Originally Posted by SWBKCB

Except on diverted flights, you just don't get off the plane and wander off to make your own way home.

I would. Or Dodds of Troon, well known around Ayrshire and beyond would get you to GLA/Glasgow, how anyone thinks a divert and road journey over the A66/M74 or A1/A720/
M8 is better than a divert down to PIK and up the toad on the fast train or A77/M77 is trolling.

[Albert Hall]

LFT, you haven't read the question above. The proposition was that if the EK went to PIK to refuel and later fly on to GLA with passengers remaining on board, why was that not equally possible at NCL?

You've also ignored the fact that it's not a pick-and-mix for individual passengers as to whether they get off at a diversion statement or remain on board. Given the need to remove bags and re-screen pax arriving from a non-EU destination, you either all stay on or all get off - no half-way house which I could read into your statement that you believed may be possible.

Judging by the weather conditions in Scotland on Sunday, I would be surprised if a PIK to GLA centre journey was any easier.

And there is a further factor that few seem to have picked up here. The aircraft's next departure ex NCL was delayed due tech. None of us here know whether this was a factor, but it is quite possible that the tech issue was evident to the crew on the inbound DXB-GLA sector and would have prevented subsequent dispatch of the aircraft on a further sector (from anywhere to anywhere).

As a Captain, dumping a 777 in a non-dispatch condition at an airport where you have no engineering support and leaving Ops to sort out the resulting mess would be a sure-fire invite to tea without biscuits with the Fleet Manager, particularly when you have another alternate with engineering support available only a few minutes' flying further away. That alternate [Newcastle] is one with which you probably are familiar, have all the briefing info you need to hand, know there is RFFS and ground handling capable of taking your aircraft and you haven't got long to piss about finding out whether any or all of that exists at Prestwick given your likely fuel state. You take a decision against a ticking clock - and sadly (if the EK captain happens to be reading this) then sit back and watch the armchair experts who have never had to take responsibility for the safety of 350 folk behind them carp and criticise about why you didn't favour their local airport instead. Based on the limited information available, I'd say it was a solid and sensible decision which would have the support of any sane Flight Ops and Ops management.

Face it - PIK is not ever likely to be the primary alternate ex GLA or EDI for most carriers apart from Ryanair (who are established there) and maybe the occasional Twin Otter.

[inOban]

This debate is going round in circles. Getting boring. End.

BTW I was told by a local that the Sunday evening flight from Glasgow is the most profitable of the week because belly is full of crabs going to China. Our local restaurants are struggling because the price of shellfish has rocketed.

[Seljuk22]

Upcoming operational changes. Starting May until the end of June there are seasonal reductions in frequency or capacity due to summer/ramadan season across the network.

25 March 2018
SYD (EK416/417) fourth daily A380
MEL (EK408/409) from daily B77W to daily A380
BNE (EK430/431) from daily B77L to daily B77W
HND (EK312/313) from daily B77W to 5 weekly B77W + 2 weekly B77L
LGW (EK011/012) from daily 3-class A380 to daily 2-class A380
ATH (EK103/104) resumption daily B77W
JFK (EK207/208) service cancelled
MCO (EK219/220) from 5 weekly to daily B77W
FLL (EK213/214) from 5 weekly to daily B77L

01 June 2018
EWR (EK223/224) second daily B77W

08 June 2018
NEW: STN (EK33/34) daily B77W
SAW (EK119/120) resumption 5 weekly B77W

01 August 2018
DUB (EK163/164) from daily 2-class B77W to daily 3-class B77W

[Heathrow Harry]

Thanks Seljuk - we appreciate your keeping us up to date!

[Mister Geezer]

Sorry for dragging up the EK PIK debate but I am sure the reason that NCL was preferred, was based on the worst case scenario of where to go if you can't get back into GLA later due to weather and you remain stuck where you divert to. There is no question that NCL is far more suitable than PIK in such a situation and for numerous reasons, many of which have been mentioned already.

Historical weather also points to the weather at NCL being considerably better (CAVOK) at the time the diversion took place.

[Seljuk22]

Emirates published some further changes for the upcoming summer.

Santiago de Chile (via Sao Paulo) will join the network and there will be additional flights to LIS, DPS and AKL.

Starting summer season EK will pull out of the Australia-Auckland market and will take over this to partner Qantas. On the other side Qantas will re-route their existing double daily A380 flights from Australia to Europe away from DXB while Emirates will increase their nonstop flights/capacity from DXB to Australia (e.g. SYD, MEL, BNE).

25 March 2018
LGW (EK011/012) from daily 3-class A380 to daily 2-class A380
ATH (EK103/104) resumption of daily flight with B77W
TUN (EK747/748) resumption of daily flight with B77W/B77L
JFK (EK207/208) daily service cancelled
MCO (EK219/220) from 5 weekly to daily B77W
FLL (EK213/214) from 5 weekly to daily B77L
HND (EK312/313) from daily B77W to 5 weekly B77W + 2 weekly B77L
MEL (EK408/409) from daily B77W to daily A380
SYD (EK416/417) new fourth daily flight with A380
BNE (EK430/431) from daily B77L to daily B77W
MEL-AKL (EK406/407) daily service cancelled
BNE-AKL (EK434/435) daily service cancelled

Qantas
QF001/002 SYD-DXB-LHR 7/7 A380 -> SYD-SIN-LHR 7/7 A380
QF009/010 MEL-DXB-LHR 7/7 A380 -> MEL-PER-LHR 7/7 B789

01 June 2018
IAH (EK211/212) from daily B77W to daily A380
EWR (EK223/224) new second daily flight with B77W
LIS (EK193/194) resumption of second daily flight with B77W

08 June 2018
NEW: STN (EK033/034) daily flight with B77W
SAW (EK119/120) resumption of 5 weekly flight with B77W

14 June 2018
NEW: DPS/AKL (EK450/451) daily flight with B77W

05 July 2018
NEW: GRU/SCL (EK263/264) 5 weekly flight with B77L

01 August 2018
DUB (EK163/164) from daily 2-class B77W to daily 3-class B77W

28 October 2018
DPS (EK360/361) daily service cancelled

[crewmeal]

Oh look what dropped into PIK. Did someone say something??

Emirates B777-300ER A6-ENX EK25 Prestwick Diversion. | The EK Source

(Courtsey of airlineroutes online)

[Skipness One Echo]

Sorry just re-reading the above, do they rescreen the passengers before the diverted flight departs again ??? That’s beyond stupid surely.

[Voldermort]

Passed PIK today at 2pm and yesterdays diverted EK25 being loaded up with pax for the trip to DXB on EK2502 and todays diverted EK27 offloading pax both a/c sitting next to each other on the apron.Any of the experts from the previous page like to comment???

[Gulf Julliet Papa]

Thats the difference between having time to make decisions (note neither flights held or went anywhere near GLA) therefore suggests the decision was made on route. Previously they diverted after holding therefore less time to ring ahead, make arrangements...plan!