DONCASTER/SHEFFIELD

[pug]

I dont see that it makes too much of a difference in attracting airlines, perhaps more diversion contracts though...

So as an operator you wouldn't be attracted by 24hr Cat III/Cat I landing capability?

I'm sure Thom Wizz Ryan etc are gutted that now they can make approaches in conditions that previously would have meant a diversion away from the airfield ...

For diversions? Yes... As an ATCO it probably makes your job so much easier.

Ok so give them a catchment area worthy of playing in.... Infact, why not invest some cash yourself and see....

Do you honestly think CatIII will bring in airlines? If so what has stopped them before now? Its not like DSA has had a bad diversion record!

[jumpseater]

For diversions? Yes... As an ATCO it probably makes your job so much easier.

Ah! now do you think it makes the crews, you know the pilut chappies, and airline operations, and the airport and handling agencies etc etc, lives any easier knowing that they can make CatIII or CatI approaches on the runway?


Do you honestly think CatIII will bring in airlines?
I think its unlikely to turn them away. What do you think?

Is a new customer likely to prefer an airfield in controlled airspace, with Cat III/CatI ILS and 365/24/7 ops, nearer to significant transport infrastructure and potential markets, to one that doesn't a few miles further away?

In your own time ...

[pug]

For diversions? Yes... As an ATCO it probably makes your job so much easier.

I meant no offence by that comment by the way....

I think its unlikely to turn them away. What do you think?

Your right, they wouldnt turn down an airport because it has better aids, but at the same time they wouldnt operate from said airport with all the top facilities if there are no passengers to fly with them... Peel have misplaced optimism and i would question their capability as an airport operator.

This CatIII thing is just like the 'long runway=long haul' thing they still bang on about now..

Is a new customer likely to prefer an airfield in controlled airspace, with Cat III/CatI ILS and 365/24/7 ops, nearer to significant transport infrastructure and potential markets, to one that doesn't a few miles further away?

Not sure if your refering to HUY, and quite right DSA has a larger 'potential' catchment area but look at it this way; KLM have stayed, all the offshore activity keeps the place busy, Eastern are doing well plus other projects, though they may be making a loss, it is only a small one after being in profit for a few years previous. DSA is losing more in a month operating costs that HUY in a full year, someone didnt do their calculations properly.

[jumpseater]

This CatIII thing is just like the 'long runway=long haul' thing they still bang on about now..

Nothing at all to do with landing in 50m visibility then ....

I think you need to upgrade your Microsoft Airport Manager Sim, you appear to have a very very early version you're relying on. You could do with getting the 'Airline Executive' add on too whilst your at it.

[pug]

Im merely making an observation, much like you, and the same could be said to you also.... It doesnt take a fool to see that losing mass amounts of cash in operating costs is not good? Hence Peel trying to palm it off onto the taxpayers and failing...

I am aware that jumpseater may be employed at the airport, and i wish you well and hope you keep your job! Im just trying to look at the bigger picture, i do hear off people 'inside' occasionaly, though i never take any info as granted i think the general opinion is one of failure.

If you know anything to the contrary, i.e attracting business routes which may put something worthwhile back into the wider economy in South Yorkshire please tell... I think the failure of BHD to sustain a double daily service goes some way to prove my point, but of course apparantly no one wants to go to Belfast so why not offer Paris, Amsterdam, Frankfurt? Perhaps because if one route fails to work it maybe has a knock on affect? Merely common sense, i dont proclaim to be an airport operations expert and am quite aware there are many complexities to running and growing one...

[wawkrk]

I will make the point one more time.
People make airports not runways and landing aids.
Before DSA opened the hype was so bad, some idiots were writing to publications about how relieved they were about not having to drive to Heathrow anymore for their long haul flights to the Far East,South Africa,the USA and South America. They never questioned why EMA or Stansted or Manchester for that matter could also not attract this business.
They believed that the DSA runway was longer than any other in the UK and this was all the airlines had dreamed about.
It is like designing a product then looking for customers to buy it.
Horse water and drink spring to mind.
DSA may make it in the distant future but I would not put money on it.
There will be more point to point flights from established airports that can already accomodate smaller aircraft for meduim to long haul flights with no market requirement for the Goliathans of the air.The 787 and A350 will create new markets.At the end of the day, the DSA runway is only average and the same length as EMA and shorter than Stansted.

[johnnychips]

Runway

A lot of people were under the misapprehension that DSA had the longest runway in Britain. It is one of the longest, though not the longest. However, it is the widest, though I can't see how that confers any operational advantage.

[baps]

DSA airport is losing money. I doubt that peel is too surprised about this as Liverpool only went into profit last year for the first time. Unfortunately with the current economic outlook it is unlikely that they will attract any new airlines in the short term but as long as Thomson stays and Wizz and Ryanair continue at least they have a starting point. Peel is a business and although it may look bad in the papers they will always try and get out of paying taxes. And who could blame them. Wouldn't you if you could!!

[jumpseater]

i dont proclaim to be an airport operations expert
Just as well really...



and am quite aware there are many complexities to running and growing one...
Judging by your previous posts, I think we could debate that one for a considerable time.


If you know anything to the contrary, i.e attracting business routes which may put something worthwhile back into the wider economy in South Yorkshire please tell...

I'm under no illusions about how the economic climate is affecting airports and airlines, I've been here before. So if we assume I did know anything to the contrary about any airport, why would I put potentially commercially confidential information, (as it's not in the public domain) on the internet?
Again, in your own time ...

[Ian Brooks]

I think that you will find it isn`t the widest either as Manston is about 61 metres
but has a large hard shoulder to it as well and used to be 750 feet wide
Copied from Pilot web site
Then there's the runway. At nearly 9,000 feet it's as long as most in the UK-but never mind the length, feel the width-it's 200 feet now but was once a whopping 750 feet. Airport director Alistair Robertson explains why. "This was the closest airfield to occupied Europe, so when the boys came back from bombing Germany with their aircraft damaged or low on fuel they needed somewhere to go in a hurry. You could land any number of aircraft and it didn't really matter whether they had their wheels up or not. There are still people who can remember days when 15 or 16 four-engine bombers just pancaked here at the end of an operation."


Ian








edited 12.00 to add some extra notes

[wawkrk]

Here are the facts:

HEATHROW – 12799 x 164 feet / 12001 x 148 feet (2)

BOSCOMBE DOWN - 10538 x 150 feet

GATWICK - 10364 x 148 feet

BRIZE NORTON - 10007 x 184 feet

CAMPBELTOWN - 10003 x 151 feet

STANSTED - 10000 x 150 feet

MANCHESTER –10000 x 150 feet / 9997 x 150 feet (2)

FAIRFORD - 9994 x 200 feet

BRUNTINGTHORPE - 9842 x 197 feet

PRESTWICK - 9800 x 150 feet

EMA - 9491 x 151 feet

DSA - 9491 x 197 feet

MILDENHALL - 9221 x 200 feet

MARHAM - 9140 x 200 feet

LOSSIEMOUTH - 9091 x 150 feet

WITTERING - 9052 x 200 feet

MANSTON - 9029 x 200 feet

HONINGTON - 9012 x 200 feet

NEWQUAY - 9006 x 285 feet

COTTSMORE - 9004 x 197 feet

CONINGSBY - 9003 x 200 feet

WADDINGTON - 9000 x 200 feet

LAKENHEATH - 9000 x 150 feet

It is my understanding that extra wide runways allowed Jet Fighters to take off in pairs. Otherwise, over 150 feet wide is a disadvantage in poor visibility as the pilots cannot see the runway edge lights.

I bet Peel would rather own Bristol with it's 6598 X 151 FEET runway and 5 million pax plus and also flights to New York.

[pug]

Jumpseater, i am offering an opinion, something you dont seem to be able to put across... If you disagree why not try being a bit more objective rather than try telling me i know nothing?

The origional post was, the airport now has CATIII, i disagree that it will attract business, plenty of bigger airports have gained more traffic without...

pug

You continue to emulate the Bankers in your view about trading......

Not all is as you read, look at the bottom of this page

I am aware of that, i have not gone into detail on accounts so im not sure how you could say otherwise? If you have an argument against then why not say it rather than try and dent my credibility?

[BKS Air Transport]

As I've pointed out before:
1) Reason for inbound foreign leisure traffic....none;
2) Reason for in- or outbound business traffic....very little;
i.e., the only reasonable source of passengers is for locally originating leisure traffic, and I would suggest that there is insufficient of that to sustain the airport long term. The only way they can get growth is by taking passengers who would previously have used LBA, HUY, EMA or MAN. So far they do not seem to have had much success with that. It may manage to tick away for a while, depending on Peel's patience, and the size of their pockets, but I find it difficult to see a long term future here. I feel it was a folly by a company whose experts should have known better.

[eltonioni]

The bare facts are that for all the bluster from the fanboy spotters at EGCN the pax numbers are back down to the level that they were in the first year of operation.

If the super duper ILS was of any real importance there would be a deluge of enquiries from airlines wanting to move in, but there isn't. Jet2 would be an obvious candidate to relocate from the low viz crosswind experience that is Leeds Bradford.

It's great that there is now a working ILS on both runways but a radar that actually works when would be more use than CATIIIc.

Let's face it, if the rumours are as true as the facts EGCN will be a business park, housing estate and aggregate quarry in ten years time. Peel are cute enough to carry on operating the airport at a loss get their mega-valuable land use masterplan through.

[roverman]

Runways again!

Sorry - just had to update earlier post on UK runway lengths. MAN 23L has recently been re-surveyed and declared at 10007 feet + starter extension takes it to 10498 feet (3200m). Most modern long-haulers are fine with 2800 metres, despite the Germans etc laying down 4000m runways everywhere. May help with de-rated power take-offs but otherwise just a waste of land.

[HOODED]

"Jet2 would be an obvious candidate to relocate from the low viz crosswind experience that is Leeds Bradford."

Really! I guess that LBA does have weather issues but the fact that Jet2 make best use of the CAT3 and are very experienced with the regular crosswinds results in very low diversions away as a percentage of their total flights. DSA doesn't have the best weather record either otherwise Peel would not have spent money on the CAT3 ILS!

At the end of the day, as has already been mentioned, Jet2 are well established at LBA and most of their passengers come from the large Leeds/Bradford conurbation. People want to fly locally by preferance and the local LBA catchment area is significantly better than DSA.

I'd like to see both Airports do well, but if I were a betting man I'd say LBA is more likley to survive the downturn than DSA. Sad as DSA has great infrastructure it's just not in the best place.

[RobT100]

Anyone know what aircraft TOM are basing at DSA this summer?

[aidoair]

3 X 737-800

The three are expected to be based at the airport by the end of March to replace any 737-300 aircraft based here.

[baps]

Try 2 737-300's and 1 737-800.

[aidoair]

Where have you got this info from? Do you work for TOM.

As far as rostering is aware it will be 3 x 738s for the summer... however i suppose since i was last aware it could have changed again but rarely does.