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Old 25th Dec 2007, 13:30
  #441 (permalink)  
 
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Lay off the Christmas sherry dude. If they'd make money there'd be queue waiting to fly these routes . There isn't, there's a queue of airlines wanting access to LHR. Pound for pound profits at LHR are higher than the same route at LGW. Ask Virgin or BA. London is the destination the world chose, not Newcastle or Inverness.

Virgin holidays did operate some GLA-MCO services in the school holidays last year, but that's bucket and spade which the regions can and do well. It's a world away from Glasgow transatlantic which to date has lost Northwest,United, BA, Air Canada and American. Go figure.


Someone selling London - New York tickets via Edinburgh as a first choice? Really? You should form your own company and try it! See what the bank manager says to that business plan.....
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 16:29
  #442 (permalink)  
 
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Skipness, its not the sherry - mate...

Its common sense. Its because the 'big-boys' DICTATE the market, there isnt any choice for the passenger... Who says that LHR (London) should have the exclusive rights for UK longhaul flights?

Be honest, why would anyone want to use LHR when you look at the chaos that surrounds the place... Passengers stranded on a yearly basis if not weather, then internal airline issues... Ground congestion is the newest term to be used... For example, after a 12hr sector, the last thing you want is to be held for a further 75minutes - on the ground - waiting for a stand! Its a regular feature now at LHR. Its one thing to build more terminals and runways, but another to make sure it all works, and you have enough 'airspace' above to accommodate everyone! Its a bottle-neck and getting worse.

Its a FIX by the majors. Iam sure Sir Freddie Laker (Rest his soul) would agree.

You know what... You are welcome to it. Take all the crap that comes with LHR and enjoy! I know Iam not alone on this subject, but hey, its Christmas and Iam enjoying dealing with passengers and crew who DO manage to get away - as planned without slots and 1 million other 'poor excuses' for an airport!

I rest my case...

Last edited by tristar500; 26th Dec 2007 at 16:40.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 19:08
  #443 (permalink)  
 
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Look I'm sorry but you're seeing some conspiracy where none exists. Airlines offer services where there is a demand for their services. Long haul from the regions as you must surely know, has been tried by all the majors and for the most part has been abandoned as there is more money to be made hubbing in the capital.
American have tried GLA-ORD, STN-ORD and BHX-ORD and recently introduced STN-JFK mainly to bump off Maxjet and EOS IMHO but anyhoo......
BA never made a penny in the regions flying long haul from GLA and BHX, MAN-JFk upsets them greatly as it has a loyal clientele...
United tried and dumped GLA-IAD but decided it made more sense to interline with Star Alliance partner BMI through LHR as the market was too seasonal and low yielding.
NWA dumped GLA-BOS as they closed their hub in BOS and decided to hub their passengers through partner KLM in AMS.
US Airways operate GLA-PHL but is too seasonal to make money year round. Indeed American's GLA-ORD was summer only from Summer 1995 until it was pulled in 2006.
Continental used to have low cost structures that allowed them to operate from their hub at EWR to the UK regions and this succesful gambit still operates.
However with the exception of the BA MAN-JFK run they were all have a hub at one end or the other.
You say the big boys have exclusive rights to fly long haul. They don't, anyone is free to try. Glogespan have shown that it is far from a simple task though. Scotland is super seasonal, Birmingham is too close to London, Bristol does well to hold it's flagship New York service, Manchester already has all of the US majors except NWA, as well as BA, Virgin and BMI on long haul.
You say try the regions, trust me it'll work. Get real. As I said they've all tried and for the most part it's been a licence to lose money in recent years, but I guess you know way better than all those airlines.........why let the lessons of history get in the way of plane spotter fantasy airport time....
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 19:35
  #444 (permalink)  
 
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Just stand at any regional airport check-in area and ask any of the 'longhaul' passengers how they - the people keeping the airlines aloft - would like to get to their destination and would they avoid LHR...

I really do now, rest my case...

PS - I will eat so much humble pie when T5 opens in a matter of weeks, as this is the answer to all LHR and BAs isuues - NOT.

Last edited by tristar500; 26th Dec 2007 at 19:49.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 19:49
  #445 (permalink)  
 
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OK you have your point of view but you haven't tried to answer any of my points so I'll leave it to others to decide.

Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 26th Dec 2007 at 20:01.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 19:51
  #446 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, I want a lot of things too unless I live and work in London, then my salary and conditions dont permit me to splash out - THATS THE REAL WORLD
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 20:55
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Tristar & Skipness

You both make good points. What I've never understood, however, is if there's no or very little money to be made in the regions, how can Manchester for example support the following:

Emirates 2XDay to Dubai
Etihad daily to Abu Dhabi
Singapore Airlines daily to Singapore
BA daily to JFK
Delta daily to Atlanta and also daily to JFK
American daily to Chicago
Virgin daily to Orlando (I think it's daily!)
PIA (numerous flights to Pakistan)
Continental to Newark

Just the above would suggest a market for long haul travel, certainly from Manchester. Why not have a Northern hub (Manchester for example) and a Southern hub (Heathrow). Lufthansa don't seem to have too many problems operating 2 large hubs (Munich and Frankfurt) for intercontinental travel.

I live in Scotland. Where possible I will avoid Heathrow at all costs, even if it means routing via Amsterdam, Frankfurt or Paris to cross the Atlantic. The combination of a better chance of losing my bags in transit at Heathrow compared to those 3 airports, combined with the sheer congestion at Heathrow in terms of passenger numbers in a small, decrepid airport (compared to passenger numbers) makes it for me a no-brainer.
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Old 26th Dec 2007, 21:13
  #448 (permalink)  
 
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Remember with the exception of BA's JFK they are all into large hubs for onward travel. ( I'm going to ignore PIA as it's a market unto itself at the bottom end )
Also because London is such a mega hub, it makes life difficult for anyone trying to hub at Manchester.
The Munich and Frankfurt hubs are not only further apart but have large population centres of their own and are more equally balanced as cities in their own right. London is let's face it the capital of the world and so distorts things a little. Incidentally, I myself am Scottish so not a southern softy
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Old 28th Dec 2007, 09:02
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I just see further massive knock-on delays when Snow, fog, strikes occurr as inevitable, I just cannot see how LHR can possibly keep expanding .....

5 Terminals ok ....2 Runways but now a clamour for a 3rd BUT what about the main problem, the airspace..?

....even with advances in technology surely that is now full ?

Whilst accepting that LHW will always be number 1 with pax and airlines for the reasons already mentioned there has to be another secondary option and that quite clearly is Manchester.
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Old 2nd Jan 2008, 11:34
  #450 (permalink)  
 
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after arriving back from oslo new years eve, i saw monarch a330 arriving into lhr from my hotel window approx 3pm and then watched it take off again new years day approx 11am. anyone know why it was there.
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Old 2nd Jan 2008, 12:01
  #451 (permalink)  
 
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Monarch A330 has been operating extra flights to Jeddah for BMI as something halfway between a schedule and a charter for the Hadj.

Spare Heathrow slots on Dec 31/Jan 1 but BMI has no spare aircraft for such operations so they chartered in from Monarch.
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Old 2nd Jan 2008, 12:38
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thanks whbm
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Old 2nd Jan 2008, 13:13
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Skipness One Echo
..London is let's face it the capital of the world...
I have read this thread with some interest living 'outside London' and thus have my own views, and so fully support Tristar500's views, but to come out with the above quote which most would agree is bck's and worth no further comment. However some of your other reasoning is also flawed as there is no level playing field, it is obvious that LHR will attract a major share of pax simply because of the catchment area it serves both in respect of business location & inhabitants. But there IS a positive discrimination of services in certain respects, to force up LF's at LHR, and this is achieved no better than by price. I have only recently returned from the US and had to transit LHR, a totally horrible experience. I made the choice only as I had to purchase 4 tickets and prices quoted by the airlines for direct flights from the regions were significantly higher making the journey choice from an ecconomic point of view a no brainer. In conclusion there is no choice other than another European hub, and this is precisely what is going to happen in future with even greater pax volumes, providing London airways- BA an even greater excuse to pass over slots to LH. Makes the country happy? (ie everyone south of Watford), well it won't, because eventually they will all dissapear up thier own back sides in the chaos that is on the horizon at LHR.
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Old 3rd Jan 2008, 07:27
  #454 (permalink)  
 
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BA FC / CC terms and conditions have always contributed to a failure to make profit out of the regional longhaul service. This is still the case today and with the closure of BA regions the problem is worst and BA will surely pull the MAN-JFK service. Having worked at LHR for 40 years I am confident that T5 will make little if any difference to the daily chaos. Much of the T5 equipment and infrastructure is not up to the task and that is obvious to those of us that are already testing it. Likewise the refurbishment of T2 to mirror T5 using the same old M4 spur will have lttle effect. Whether the airlines want it or not regional airports will have to take some of the capacity in the near future.
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Old 3rd Jan 2008, 10:32
  #455 (permalink)  
 
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Speaking as someone from the Regions myself, now living in London I have to take issue. When I said that London was the world's Capital, there's a good argument for that being true. Financially and culturally, the world comes to London, not England, not Scotland, London.
Heathrow is pretty rubbish, the infrastructure is creaky and the Tube's a nightmare and STILL they come in massive numbers.
People moan about the lack of a level playing field. Is there a law preventing Globespan launching GLA-JFK tomorrow? Try naming three large French airlines that aren't really Air France. Is that a level playing field?
We need to stop treating London as if it's some regional part of England. It's not. It's London, and unless you actually live here, you won't get that !
It has a GDP bigger than Scotland condensed into an area the size of a beermat. Go figure.
In the regions if you want to fly to a long haul destination, for the most part you will need to connect at a major airport. Be that Amsterdam, Dubai or Heathrow, let's be honest, you have a choice of options in the UK pretty much unsurpassed. Try doing the same on the continent for a comparable price...... Instead let's be British and moan our ***s off and demand that the pie be shared out amongst the regions. I sometimes wonder if some people on here would recognise a succesful business model if they fell over it.
"BA are awful etc etc, they're doomed." Er they make money,as does Heathrow. Don't like it? Fly elsewhere and stop whinging. If enough people did that then the BAA would be forced to act.

YOU CAN'T BUCK THE MARKET. London is much busier than Manchester as Manchester only has a fraction of the inbound tourist market. People who are talking about closing Heathrow to all new entrants and making people fly to Manchester all sounds a bit political and Soviet to me. Lets allow United to access high yield Heathrow and tell Delta to fly "more from Manchester". What? SERIOUSLY?

Free country, free market, deal with it.

Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 3rd Jan 2008 at 12:36.
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Old 3rd Jan 2008, 11:14
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If the Government said "thats it now LHR is full - end of" instead of building more terminals & runways (destroying more of the environment) then the Airlines wouldnt have a choice but to look else where and MAKE it work.

A VS/BA/BMI long haul base with fedders into MAN from around the UK / Europe would surely be a better option than a 8th runway & 14th terminal at LHR

Manchester has a runway that is only used 6 hours a day, and terminals that could be far better utilised - and are already built.

But hey I forgot - Londons airspace seems to be elastic and Manchester is north of Watford and therefore not an option
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Old 3rd Jan 2008, 12:40
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Manchester already has long haul from BA / BMI / VS and feeders from GLA / EDI / ABZ / SOU etc etc so the option is there to connect already however there are not enough bums on seats it would seem. The reason that airlines are not rushing to expand massively their long haul presence is because they can make more money south of Watford and it's a free market.
As for the environment, Hounslow's already a dump. Are you suggesting that we should only massively expand Manchester to meet the anticipated growth rates in future years by building on more green land? Or we could get people on the train and let them connect in Birmingham, except that to do that they'd have to travel OUT of the city with the massive choice of destinations to connect in the Midlands and thereby having an even BIGGER carbon footprint. Bad enough we might need to connect through London but now you guys want Londoners to connect through the Midlands and the North West ???
That's utterly contradictory. Anyhoo I've ranted enough and I'll leave it to others I think.

Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 3rd Jan 2008 at 14:37.
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Old 3rd Jan 2008, 13:32
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Even better, develop our second city, BHX, as a hub and link the London-Birmingham-Manchester corridor with high-frequency, high-speed trains (including stops at all three airports). Should be possible to get journey times to London and Manchester close to 1 hour from BHX.

Wasn't that what Prescottgrad was all about?

Could even extend in the other directions to Bristol and Sheffield/ Leeds.

Arrange some integrated ticketing and people might just take the train to the plane.
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Old 3rd Jan 2008, 13:59
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Mad Rich... Your suggestion is along the right lines, BHX would be just as good as MAN.

Skipness... Where did I suggest construction at MAN ? They already have what they need without need for any new runways / terminals.

Bad enough we might need to connect through London but now you guys want Londoners to connect through the Midlands and the North West ???
Yes - if it means no new runways and safer skies over London, but Londoners connecting via BHX or MAN - God Forbid !!! Lets build more runways in an already over congested aviation area instead.

It makes me think that the only thing that will changes things is a mid-air collision over London - again, god forbid and pray it never happens.

Last edited by eggc; 3rd Jan 2008 at 15:37.
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Old 7th Jan 2008, 16:41
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't was the night but one before xmas

Fog Chaos, flights delayed, then up to two hours to get a stand.

A bonanza for BAA and NCP as those of us meeting passengers are charged hefty parking fees all because they can’t find space for aircraft!!!

Add to that no information being provided by BAA to those waiting and you can imagine Early Christmas Eve at T1 with not enough seats and lots of tired people wondering what exactly the Airport has done with their friends and relatives, (not to mention aircraft and crew). Thank you to the flight crews who in a controlled way allowed their passengers to use their mobile phones to contact waiting and some times distressed relatives. This was the only way we knew that we had not somehow missed the people we intended to meet and exactly what their status was.

Also thank you to BA for actually operating the flight, I guess we should be thankful as this was the only EDI-LHR flight not cancelled that Sunday afternoon.

To BAA, How often do you have problems because of Fog, how long have you been operating this airport and is it really that tough to feed proper information to your arrivals halls? Any chance you could use the extra car parking fees generated by your incompetence to rectify the situation?
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