HEATHROW
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Shed, give a new runway to LHR which will free up capacity for the leisure travel sector you claim is needed at LGW
I would actually be quite happy for both LHR and LGW airports to build a new runway from a purely operational perspective. But unfortunately, there is no "give" about it. They will be extraordinarily expensive to deliver, particularly the LHR option. And I am very keen to ensure that the successful project is entirely privately funded, including all support works required to upgrade surrounding general infrastructure in consequence. And privately financed in a watertight manner such that the project cannot default back to taxpayer responsibility in the future due to some loose state-underwritten guarantee.
By the way, increased capacity for leisure travel is needed across the SE airports system generally. But LGW appears to offer the most logical solution for addressing this need.
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By the way, increased capacity for leisure travel is needed across the SE airports system generally. But LGW appears to offer the most logical solution for addressing this need.
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Listen, the fact of the matter is that airlines only fly from LGW because they can't fly from LHR. Look at the long list of airlines that start of at LGW and then move to LHR at the first chance. VN and GA being the most recent cases. The rest of LGW's operation is just overflow. If you told BA tomorrow that they had to stop operating from LGW they wouldn't even give it a second thought.
LTN and STN are also just overflow. EZY wanting to open a base at LHR says it all. Even the cheap seats want to get a piece of LHR.
Why does no one listen to the experts, i.e. The airlines, the people who's business it is to make money from transporting people by air. Millions of pounds being paid for slots and airlines queuing up for their chance to operate only happens at one airport in the world. It is genuinely laughable that second runways at STN or LGW are considered as options. A third runway at LHR is the right decision and is wanted by the people that matter. The sad thing is that this country has long been at the mercy of the minorities so chances are the rest of us will just give in for an easy life. Stick your head in the sand and wait for the moaning to stop whilst a once great country crumbles to insignificance.
LTN and STN are also just overflow. EZY wanting to open a base at LHR says it all. Even the cheap seats want to get a piece of LHR.
Why does no one listen to the experts, i.e. The airlines, the people who's business it is to make money from transporting people by air. Millions of pounds being paid for slots and airlines queuing up for their chance to operate only happens at one airport in the world. It is genuinely laughable that second runways at STN or LGW are considered as options. A third runway at LHR is the right decision and is wanted by the people that matter. The sad thing is that this country has long been at the mercy of the minorities so chances are the rest of us will just give in for an easy life. Stick your head in the sand and wait for the moaning to stop whilst a once great country crumbles to insignificance.
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Stansted alone has at least 10m, possibly 15m, of unsold capacity available for the growth of point to point leisure/vfr travel - something it already serves very well.
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the fact of the matter is that airlines only fly from LGW because they can't fly from LHR
Why does no one listen to the experts, i.e. The airlines, the people who's business it is to make money from transporting people by air.
It is genuinely laughable that second runways at STN or LGW are considered as options.
A third runway at LHR is the right decision and is wanted by the people that matter.
wait for the moaning to stop whilst a once great country crumbles to insignificance.
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A point that seems to be very conveniently overlooked on here, why do airlines want to transfer from Lgw to Lhr. It is due to the fact that yields are higher at Lhr. Why is that? Because Lhr has a virtual monopoly on long haul and business travel from the UK, never mind London. Slots etc scarce, and that scarcity is used to drive up prices/yields. A few months back, this point was made by another poster either on this thread or the thread that ran about the commission report. And let us not forget that Lhr, the airlines and all the other companies involved with the Lhr project have a major vested interest to ensure Lgw never gets a look in so that the high fares situation can continue. Why should we help them all succeed in that aim? And why are so many on here prepared to accept all these projections about economic benefits when the truth is, they have no idea. Who knows what 5 years will bring in terms of growth etc never mind projecting 30 years out in the multiple billions. It is complete pie in the sky stuff that a lot of people with very vested interests are determined to see through. We, the tax payer will be asked to pay, and years down the road, we will learn that we were sold a complete pup. I hope government sees sense, denies Lhr their ambition to seal their dominant position and give the decision to Lgw. Then we will see some real competition. And not for one minute do I accept that an airline, faced with going to Lgw or not starting/expanding in London, will walk away because they can't get Lhr. Lhr is the big attraction due to the fact their almost monopoly position enables airlines and Lhr to charge us all more, no other reason. Wake up to the darker side of capitalism! And I am a capitalist believer, but sometimes it is not good for the consumer.
True Blue you're failing to see how the dynamics of this market work.
Compare the number of non stop far east and Chinese routes out of CDG/FRA/AMS and then LHR. London lags behind hugely, now by your impeccable logic, if they can't get LHR, they'll be at LGW. How come so many of them aren't in London at all?
LHR works well due to a critical mass of connections due to legacy BOAC/BEA and empire routes history as well as being round a whole lot longer than LGW. Hence your concept of a level playing field in certain markets os flawed as the existing market is so skewed to LHR.
Also, your assertion that LHR has a monopoly on business travel is quite far from true.
So you can regulate and disadvantage some at your discretion, or allow the market to function freely and support it. Either way, China fly A380s from Amsterdam, not Gatwick. Gatwick is in London and has slots. Worth considering why the capacity is in the Netherlands.
Compare the number of non stop far east and Chinese routes out of CDG/FRA/AMS and then LHR. London lags behind hugely, now by your impeccable logic, if they can't get LHR, they'll be at LGW. How come so many of them aren't in London at all?
LHR works well due to a critical mass of connections due to legacy BOAC/BEA and empire routes history as well as being round a whole lot longer than LGW. Hence your concept of a level playing field in certain markets os flawed as the existing market is so skewed to LHR.
Also, your assertion that LHR has a monopoly on business travel is quite far from true.
So you can regulate and disadvantage some at your discretion, or allow the market to function freely and support it. Either way, China fly A380s from Amsterdam, not Gatwick. Gatwick is in London and has slots. Worth considering why the capacity is in the Netherlands.
Compare the number of non stop far east and Chinese routes out of CDG/FRA/AMS and then LHR. London lags behind hugely, now by your impeccable logic, if they can't get LHR, they'll be at LGW. How come so many of them aren't in London at all?
Secondly CZ is with Skyteam, and AMS is a major Skyteam hub, so perhaps easier for them to fill the A380 there. Or it could simply be that it's still harder for Chinese to get visas for the UK than for the rest of Europe. Regardless, CZ has a daily 787 to LHR and I'm sure if the demand was there they would substitute an A380 on the route.
Are there businesses that say, we would do billions of pounds' worth of business in Xville, if only we could fly there direct from LHR?
I believe HAL when they say there's a correlation between business done between two cities and direct flights, but which is cause and which is effect? LHR supporters seem to think that business will happen if the flights are in place. I imagine the flights will be scheduled if the demand is there.
I believe HAL when they say there's a correlation between business done between two cities and direct flights, but which is cause and which is effect? LHR supporters seem to think that business will happen if the flights are in place. I imagine the flights will be scheduled if the demand is there.
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In a truly capitalistic society prices are driven down by more choice, if more space was available at LGW then the likes of Norwegian I believe would offer more US flights at low prices and you would have EasyJet acting as their feed.
This in turn would lead to BA competing with lower fares to stop a drift of PAX to LGW. New York has 4 airports spaced around the city all fiercely competing,
This would be a much better model than putting all your eggs in one basket.
This in turn would lead to BA competing with lower fares to stop a drift of PAX to LGW. New York has 4 airports spaced around the city all fiercely competing,
This would be a much better model than putting all your eggs in one basket.
Join Date: Dec 2003
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Sir Bufton Tufton from the Air Ministry is briefing ministers this afternoon.
Decision to be announced 1830
Transport Minster is then briefing press at 1900, except of course certain members of the BBC nudge, nudge who know the answer already !
Decision to be announced 1830
Transport Minster is then briefing press at 1900, except of course certain members of the BBC nudge, nudge who know the answer already !
Last edited by Bagso; 10th Dec 2015 at 16:45.
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Lets remember how this started. BAA, the owners of Heathrow want to expand their airport in order to create a hub. This would allow people from smaller airports around the UK and europe to fly into the airport and connect to a larger number of international flights. People are already doing this but via places like Amsterdam. It would also free up capacity on the main runways.
Somehow along the lines this was turned into a need for an extra runway being needed somewhere in the south east. This is like me asking for permission to extend my house as my family has grown and being told they will allow the guy across the road to do his instead.
Gatwick may or may not need a new runway. It would certainly like one as any airport would. It is a completely different matter however to the LHR plan. Gatwick knows that should LHR expansion go ahead they will likely not be granted permission to build one for decades and this is the reason they have started the whole Gatwick vs Heathrow debate.
Gatwick will never be allowed to grow into the hub that LHR wants to be so the debate should really be about whether or not the UK wants this hub and spoke approach. From speaking to my friends and family in the north I would say that once people realise that they will be able to go from their local airport to pretty much anywhere in the world with just a short flight and easy connection at LHR they change their mind from being totally disinterested in the third runway to being all in favour.
Given the benefit to the UK from the above I really do not understand why you are so against any of the taxpayers money being used to finance at least the transport works. LHR is the UK's premier airport and brings in billions of pounds to the economy. To be against government investment just because it is in the south is just sour grapes. Look at the timescale. As has been said over and over the roads in that area are in need of upgrading now so a redevelopment would likely be done anyway.
Regarding the air pollution argument. We are talking about 10-15 years down the line when it will become operational. The A380's and dreamliners will be old aircraft by then. A newer era of aircraft and engines will be both quieter and greener compared to what we have now.
Trains cars and buses etc. will all be more efficient and less harmfull to the environment.
The hub and spoke arrangement will also mean less numbers of aircraft flying long haul out of the UK, less stacking of aircraft and less road/rail journeys to LHR and Man etc.
Somehow along the lines this was turned into a need for an extra runway being needed somewhere in the south east. This is like me asking for permission to extend my house as my family has grown and being told they will allow the guy across the road to do his instead.
Gatwick may or may not need a new runway. It would certainly like one as any airport would. It is a completely different matter however to the LHR plan. Gatwick knows that should LHR expansion go ahead they will likely not be granted permission to build one for decades and this is the reason they have started the whole Gatwick vs Heathrow debate.
Gatwick will never be allowed to grow into the hub that LHR wants to be so the debate should really be about whether or not the UK wants this hub and spoke approach. From speaking to my friends and family in the north I would say that once people realise that they will be able to go from their local airport to pretty much anywhere in the world with just a short flight and easy connection at LHR they change their mind from being totally disinterested in the third runway to being all in favour.
I would actually be quite happy for both LHR and LGW airports to build a new runway from a purely operational perspective. But unfortunately, there is no "give" about it. They will be extraordinarily expensive to deliver, particularly the LHR option. And I am very keen to ensure that the successful project is entirely privately funded, including all support works required to upgrade surrounding general infrastructure in consequence. And privately financed in a watertight manner such that the project cannot default back to taxpayer responsibility in the future due to some loose state-underwritten guarantee
Regarding the air pollution argument. We are talking about 10-15 years down the line when it will become operational. The A380's and dreamliners will be old aircraft by then. A newer era of aircraft and engines will be both quieter and greener compared to what we have now.
Trains cars and buses etc. will all be more efficient and less harmfull to the environment.
The hub and spoke arrangement will also mean less numbers of aircraft flying long haul out of the UK, less stacking of aircraft and less road/rail journeys to LHR and Man etc.
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Prophead
"Once my friends in The North realised they could fly practically anywhere from MANCHESTER they became totally disinterested in Heathrow " see above
PS where does this contribution of "billions of pounds to the economy come from"?
A) No corporation tax was paid last year !
B) Heathrow has foriegn owners, It is not a UK company!
"Once my friends in The North realised they could fly practically anywhere from MANCHESTER they became totally disinterested in Heathrow " see above
PS where does this contribution of "billions of pounds to the economy come from"?
A) No corporation tax was paid last year !
B) Heathrow has foriegn owners, It is not a UK company!
Last edited by Bagso; 11th Dec 2015 at 06:06.
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the fact of the matter is that airlines only fly from LGW because they can't fly from LHR
This still leaves a substantial market for Gatwick drawing from South London to the South Coast - something similar in size to that of Stansted.