SHANNON

[EISNN]

Really? Did the STR divert into SNN? That's usually A320 equipment on that route. Terrible thing those cross winds in SNN. And in your professional opinion how would you have landed the aircraft in those challenging conditions? Was there much of a delay before you eventually got to Stuttgart?

[fivejuliet]

He probably meant to say EI385

[brian_dromey]

SNN-LHR is scheduled as a 3x daily A319, with one exception. 2x daily on a Saturday and it seems the saturday 385/387 is an A320 to cover the SNN based aircraft going down to the canaries. The A320 seems to be a W from DUB, just on the saturday afternoon.

[philbky]

Sarcasm EISNN is the lowest form of being a twit. It was the EI385 but I was typing after 36 hours of being awake, a delayed departure from IAH, seven hours forty minutes of light to moderate turbulence on BA196 and a further two hours drive after leaving SNN I'm willing to admit to a typo - something you obviously have never done.

As far as the landing at SNN was concerned, where I've been landed as a passenger frequently since 1963, this was exceptional in so far as the wind was from 270, gusting sharply and to have first contact with the ground so far down the runway was - in my considerable experience as a passenger at SNN, having observed thousands of landings at SNN from the ground, having been landed hundreds of times as a passenger at airports around the world, including hundreds of jump seat hours prior to 9/11 - very unusual.

[CONAIR11]

philbky...It is not unusual for aircraft flying into shannon to 'land long' on runway 24 when the wind is gusting from the west or north west. The Shannon aerospace hangar creates turbulence at the touchdown zone and landing further down the runway may, given that the runway is 3k metres, make for a smoother and safer landing.

[philbky]

CONAIR11 Please read the last paragraph of my post. I've landed and observed landings on that runway at SNN since 1963 and long landings were regular in gusty conditions well before that hangar (note how to spell the word) was built.

Over the threshold the aircraft was over the grass to the right of the tarmac. 35 degrees of flap and engines idle but no spoilers to help dump any lift. By the time we were passing Shannon Aerospace we were floating in ground effect about 10 or 15 feet above the runway with excursions having been made both across the centre line and to the right again. When we eventually firmly touched down on the extreme right hand edge of the runway and full reverse and spoilers were deployed the aircraft made two excursions across the runway on roll out and came to a stop some 250 metres past the last turn off. Conditions were poor with wind 270 28 knots gusting 38 knots in a heavy shower.

I've landed in similar condition in A320s at SNN many times over the years but touchdown has always been before the western end of the Aerospace hangar. As it was the landing was a piece of very professional airmanship.

[Jack1985]

35 degrees of flap and engines idle but no spoilers to help dump any lift.

Can I ask how you can determine it had a 35 degree flap setting? The A320 has 4 stages of flap deployment, none of which are determined by degree settings. Can you remind yourself of the wind that day please? The fact Shannon also has the longest runway in the country would have meant floating for that amount of time (going on what your saying) was borderline acceptable. Don't really know what you're banging on about though, you landed, everybodys ok, the aircraft is still flying, kind of a bum story.

[CONAIR11]

philbky..I am not an airbus pilot and I dont have a copy of aerlingus SOPS but I would be very very doubtful that the use of spoilers to dump lift before touchdown at low altitudes is permitted. Every landing should be treated as a potential go-around and if you dump lift before touchdown you may end up in the Shannon river if you abort the landing and attempt a go-around. Well done to the PIC I say.

[Jack1985]

the use of spoilers to dump lift before touchdown at low altitudes is permitted.

It isn't, on any airbus aircraft. There's a reason why all airbus aircraft carry the line ''SPLRS ARM'' in the Landing checklist.

[philbky]

Jack 1985, if you sit behind the wing on at least EI-DEN, the aircraft in question and presumably on all A320s, the flap settings in degrees are painted onto the upper surface of the flap and are visible on deployment. As for the wind, I'm well aware what it was like, I also checked the Metar after landing as I was a little surprised the landing wasn't rejected.

I'm not sure what the SOPS or the A320 manuals say about dumping lift in such a situation but I've seen it done on other types in similar situations. As for it being a bum story, it's a little sad that people are so dismissive of the mention of a less than usual occurrence mentioned from the point of view of a passenger who has nearly 60 years as an enthusiast and over 50 years as flying as a passenger around the world and found the landing worthy of comment.

[Jack1985]

the flap settings in degrees are painted onto the upper surface of the flap

Yes they are 1, 2, 3 and 4 and numbers ranging up to 40 but these are maintenance related and nothing to do with the degree of flap, I've just told you that is not used in judging flap deployment on airbus aircraft. Was the aircraft yesterday carrying the standard livery? or was she all white?

dump lift before touchdown at low altitudes is permitted.

This can be done by for example if the wind was hitting the nose from the South West gusting to 35 knots by kicking the rudder right and applying left aileron which would cause the aircraft to land left main gear first before the pilot would lower the aircraft onto its right gear followed by the nose, its a well practiced routine known as crabbing, however remember anything could have changed this plan or the pilot might not have used that routine purely down to preference which is fully understandable!

[fivejuliet]

EI-DEN operated EI385 y/day, EI-DVM operated ACE flight and all white EI-FCC is gone from the fleet.

[philbky]

EI-DEN is in full livery. The flap markings are lines with the numbers 5, 15, 20 and 35. These correspond exactly to the degree of flaps deployed. I think at 66 I've a pretty good idea of the degree of deflection from the horizontal, or in the case of an A320 trailing edge, near horizontal.

[Jack1985]

I think at 66 I've a pretty good idea

Ok with the upmost respect, please do not play the age card as if to dismiss the younger generation.

The flap markings are lines with the numbers 5, 15, 20 and 35. These correspond exactly to the degree of flaps deployed.

I can inform you fully that they do not. This is what they're there for and I confirmed this last night and my previous understanding of the numbers was correct;

There are numbers 1 to 5 on the back of the spoilers and are used for replacing those individual panels - There are numbers 2, 3 and 4 written on the flaps themselves and are used for ''flap track'' replacement. There are numbers 1 to 5 written on the slats also used for their individual replacement. Then the numbers begin to go up to 70 and those numbers above 5 are much smaller, they are however used to determine further panel replacement and even down to the finest detail of pipe replacement for hydraulic fluid.

So can I remind you for the third time, they are not used to determine flaps stage.

[Cyrano]

A polite request: if you want to discuss landing flap settings on an A320 or settle an argument about who knows more about what's painted on the flap tracks, could you perhaps take your discussion to Tech Log or some other forum? The argy-bargy following the original post is not particularly specific to Shannon.

Thanks...

[philbky]

Jack1985 you are utterly, totally and irrevocably WRONG with regards to the markings on the flaps. Don't patronise me re age. I was on the aircraft on Saturday, I'm not blind, stupid infirm or fantasising. I KNOW the difference between flaps, slats and spoilers and the horizontal lines on the FLAPS had the number 5 by the first line which became visible on the first deployment , 15 by the second line, 20 by the third line and 35 by the fourth and last line which was not visible until the last flap setting was selected. If you don't believe me I suggest you buy a ticket and go and sit in the window seat in row 19, starboard side and try and make sure you get a ride on EI-DEN.

Now as you are obviously so convinced I've made the whole thing up and in deference to the polite request by Cyrano, I've stated what happened, what I could see and if you choose to doubt it I'm prepared to bow out here leaving you in the certainty of your own infallibility.

[Jack1985]

Me patronising, you posted the following

I think at 66

as if to remind me your false understanding was somehow superior.

. I was on the aircraft on Saturday, I'm not blind, stupid infirm or fantasising.

I'm not questioning that, not calling you stupid nor am I calling you blind nor am I saying your fantasising.

I KNOW the difference between flaps, slats and spoilers and the horizontal lines on the FLAPS had the number 5 by the first line which became visible on the first deployment , 15 by the second line, 20 by the third line and 35 by the fourth and last line which was not visible until the last flap setting was selected. If you don't believe me I suggest you buy a ticket and go and sit in the window seat in row 19, starboard side and try and make sure you get a ride on EI-DEN.

As I've said degrees are not used to determine flap deployment on the A320 its covered in four stages (there's actually 5, because Flap 1 has two settigns determined by an autocommand function one of which is 1+F activated only on the ground when the lever is set to 1 however on landing it extends slats only and is shown as ''1'' when also set to 1) which are 1 to 4 (the last being referred to as full).

Even if referred to as degrees it would go as;

1 - 0 degree flap / 18 degree slat
1+F* - 10 degree flap / 18 degree slat
2 - 15 degree flap / 22 degree slat
3 - 20 degree flap / 22 degree slat
FULL (4) - 35 degree flap / 27 degree slat

So from the above its a nice coincidence that the last 3 numbers being displayed following deployment of a flap stage agreed to the degree however they are not there to determine the flap degree. Just to let you know I'm a ground handler at Cork, although I don't work on the A320's on a daily basis I've plenty of friends with that carrier and confirmed the number range that are printed onto both wings as I said ranging from 0 to 70.

Now as you are obviously so convinced I've made the whole thing up

I'm not? However go back to your original argument about dumping lift etc, that may be your preference however you are not the PIC - And I'm sure that he/she made the correct decision during that landing.

That'll be my last post but please don't bring up an age factor to then try spin it around as if it were me bringing it up.

Now let's get back to the Shannon thread.

Regards.

[m36mike]

ONWARDS AND UPWARDS

Sign of things to come in SNN last night.
3 scheduled ryanair a/c on the ground at the same time.
WRO - SNN
STN - SNN
SNN - LGW

[m36mike]

3 ATR72-212A leased from ACL heading from SNN to Brazil tomorrow.

[vkid]

5% growth over Oct 12...