Air Southwest
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 2,948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
4 flights per week Tommy?
Business travellers want to travel from Sunday PM's thru until Saturday AM's, leisure travellers want to travel, in the main, from Friday PM's thru until Monday AM's ..... who are you going to p1ss off, who's custom are you going to miss out on, with only 4 flights per week, the business or the leisure travellers?
Business travellers want to travel from Sunday PM's thru until Saturday AM's, leisure travellers want to travel, in the main, from Friday PM's thru until Monday AM's ..... who are you going to p1ss off, who's custom are you going to miss out on, with only 4 flights per week, the business or the leisure travellers?
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: west of the Tamar
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How can anyone say that STN-NQY is irrelevant? Whenever I or anyone else I knew used the FR STN-NQY flights when the were operating twice daily, there were sufficient pax to virtually fill a 737-800, even off-season. The flights were used by plenty of business pax as well, from Cornwall as well as the SE of England. Granted, the economic situation isn't as good as it was back then, but I would have thought the market is still there, either STN-NQY or LTN-NQY, for at least a single daily rotation. How about it EZY?
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 2,948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
kala,
So if, as you say, circa 600+ (circa 300+ in each direction) passengers were flying to/from Newquay day in, day out, even through the depths of a Cornish winter then how come Ryanair dropped the route and, still, ASW couldn't attract enough passengers on to a turbo-prop London service at a fare to, at least, break even on the route?
So if, as you say, circa 600+ (circa 300+ in each direction) passengers were flying to/from Newquay day in, day out, even through the depths of a Cornish winter then how come Ryanair dropped the route and, still, ASW couldn't attract enough passengers on to a turbo-prop London service at a fare to, at least, break even on the route?
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: England
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ryanair and Newquay myth.
I think the truth of the matter with Ryanair was that they had issues with Stanstead and as per usual blamed everyone else for the route being pulled. They also have blamed the ADF at Newquay for pulling this and recently the Alicante route which also had very good pax numbers. I am very well placed when it comes to pax numbers at Newquay and can tell you as long as ASW price competitively for the Stanstead route it should perform well.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: west of the tamar
Age: 75
Posts: 860
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I reckon I could fill a STN/NQY flight seven days a week easily, I couldn't do it at a profit though or anything remotely like it and thereby hangs the rub.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North East
Age: 37
Posts: 204
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Southend? Seriously?
Why would SEN work if LGW didn't?
SEN would have a chance of working from the Southwest but not until there is some sort of momentum at the place, i.e. increasing numbers of flights. ASW is not the airline to do that...
Why would SEN work if LGW didn't?
- Gatwick has more connections - International, domestic, loco, full fare.
- Gatwick has the same(ish) London catchment area plus the South coast (Brighton, Hove etc), SEN has sparsely populated East Anglia (where of course NWI is making a killing with 3 or 4 commercial flights per day), and perhaps Cambridge.
- People have heard of Gatwick, hardly anybody in the South West would know about Southend Airport (I just had to look it up on Google maps), and as such would require more promotion.
- There may perhaps be a reason why SEN has supported only one flight a week for less than half of the year for the past 5 years... And yes I think RE launching services is a brave move.
SEN would have a chance of working from the Southwest but not until there is some sort of momentum at the place, i.e. increasing numbers of flights. ASW is not the airline to do that...
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
jerboy - you are talking nonsense. Have you ever actually looked at a map? Or have any knowledge of the SEN/STN area? Do you understand why SEN has had just one weekly flight for the last few years? Sparsely populated East Anglia you say?! Southend is actually in deepest Essex, population 1.4 million. A long way from the Fens or the fields of Norfolk but not far at all from East London with a shiny new rail service direct to a brand spanking new terminal to open soon. All discussed in the SEN thread.
What you are all forgetting about LGW 'not working' is that Flybe came along. There is no competition at STN.
There seems to be a few people on here with local shop for local people mentality, not seeing that people may want to travel TO Cornwall therefore connections are irrelevent. But I guess that is why I am in strategic management and I would guess they are not.
What you are all forgetting about LGW 'not working' is that Flybe came along. There is no competition at STN.
There seems to be a few people on here with local shop for local people mentality, not seeing that people may want to travel TO Cornwall therefore connections are irrelevent. But I guess that is why I am in strategic management and I would guess they are not.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
tommyc2005 the issue from us is that Southend is remote. Now of course the locals disagree but that's how the London market sees it, Stansted and Luton slightly less so.
Hence from a remote location in Essex to borderline remote seasonal location in Devon or Cornwall is trickly. You need mass market at one end to make it work, with the best will in the world, that's not "London" Southend. "London" by the sea for God's sake, marketing is really a game for people who never visit the Earth.
Willy waving is frowned upon, it doesn't impress on these boards, only a good and reasoned argument. Hence when you say
it's not helpful.
Hence from a remote location in Essex to borderline remote seasonal location in Devon or Cornwall is trickly. You need mass market at one end to make it work, with the best will in the world, that's not "London" Southend. "London" by the sea for God's sake, marketing is really a game for people who never visit the Earth.
But I guess that is why I am in strategic management and I would guess they are not.
jerboy - you are talking nonsense
Skipness One Echo
From previous postings elsewhere you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about LCY. Perhaps you can give an opinion as to why in the recent past both BA and Cityjet nominated SEN as number one weather diversion, seeing as "Southend is remote". I would suggest that those two airlines don't share that view.
I don't actually believe SEN is a natural choice for a NQY or PLH route, it being on the 'wrong' side of London. There's a natural aversion to overflying your ultimate destination by 40 miles and then getting on a train to travel those 40 miles back again. For traffic originating in Europe, however, that is a totally different matter and is, in my opinion, where much of SEN's future business will come from.
From previous postings elsewhere you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about LCY. Perhaps you can give an opinion as to why in the recent past both BA and Cityjet nominated SEN as number one weather diversion, seeing as "Southend is remote". I would suggest that those two airlines don't share that view.
I don't actually believe SEN is a natural choice for a NQY or PLH route, it being on the 'wrong' side of London. There's a natural aversion to overflying your ultimate destination by 40 miles and then getting on a train to travel those 40 miles back again. For traffic originating in Europe, however, that is a totally different matter and is, in my opinion, where much of SEN's future business will come from.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 2,948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
People may want to travel to Cornwall Tommy?
The word there being "may"!
A NQY, then PLH, route survived fror umpteen years, operated by BMA then Brymon then ASW and it's 'bread & butter' customers were the Cornwall/Devon community, the locals, and business people like/need a morning and evening service five and two half days per week and this worked for umpteen years!
But, it seems, you want to operate a service for the tourists, the holidaymakers, those that might only travel to Devon/Cornwall once or twice per year, indeed per lifetime, only during the short summers and with big shiny jets and at low cost. Have you ever occupied significant time in Cornwall during the winters? I have, during the summers it is beautiful, during the winters it has to be one of the most damp and depressing places I have ever been!
Well Ryanair couldn't make this work with B737-800's, have you seen EZY jumping in there with their somewhat smaller shiny jets, even FlyBE with their regional jet/turboprop fleet? Nope, it seems they all realise that a loco operation to/from Cornwall is not what the market is crying out for. Do you see big shiny jets operating between the London airports and Blackpool, people MAY actually want to go to Blackpool you know?
As for connections via SEN, well NQY already has a MAN route that offers more connections than SEN is ever likely to offer.
But it seems to me there is someone, around here, living in Kent who wants to travel to/from Cornwall but isn't willing to pay a reasonable air fare to do so. Cornwall/London/Cornwall is, and always has been, a commuter aircraft route, a maximum of 50 seats but preferably less.
The word there being "may"!
A NQY, then PLH, route survived fror umpteen years, operated by BMA then Brymon then ASW and it's 'bread & butter' customers were the Cornwall/Devon community, the locals, and business people like/need a morning and evening service five and two half days per week and this worked for umpteen years!
But, it seems, you want to operate a service for the tourists, the holidaymakers, those that might only travel to Devon/Cornwall once or twice per year, indeed per lifetime, only during the short summers and with big shiny jets and at low cost. Have you ever occupied significant time in Cornwall during the winters? I have, during the summers it is beautiful, during the winters it has to be one of the most damp and depressing places I have ever been!
Well Ryanair couldn't make this work with B737-800's, have you seen EZY jumping in there with their somewhat smaller shiny jets, even FlyBE with their regional jet/turboprop fleet? Nope, it seems they all realise that a loco operation to/from Cornwall is not what the market is crying out for. Do you see big shiny jets operating between the London airports and Blackpool, people MAY actually want to go to Blackpool you know?
As for connections via SEN, well NQY already has a MAN route that offers more connections than SEN is ever likely to offer.
But it seems to me there is someone, around here, living in Kent who wants to travel to/from Cornwall but isn't willing to pay a reasonable air fare to do so. Cornwall/London/Cornwall is, and always has been, a commuter aircraft route, a maximum of 50 seats but preferably less.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skipness, granted it isn't helpful but good reasoned argument doesn't seem to get through to these people who don't seem to see the bigger picture and have posted widely inaccurate claims. For the record, it is flights to STN I believe will work, not SEN. Though i wouldn't completely rule out success for SEN flights.
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps you can give an opinion as to why in the recent past both BA and Cityjet nominated SEN as number one weather diversion, seeing as "Southend is remote"
Indeed you can read off the registrations quite easily off traffic going into LCY from SEN. It's on the coast beyond the M25, you can't define it as any more remote if you want to call it a "London" airport as if it were any more peripheral, the locals would need gills and webbed feet.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Kent
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Phileas - Blackpool is a completely different case - much quicker road/rail times from London and surrounding areas and not nearly as much demand from southerners for visits.
You have got it, I do see STN as a service for the tourists. 10.5k seats per annum isn't very many to fill for that purpose.
As for the comment about me not willing to pay a reasonable fare, you may note from a previous post I used to frequent the LCY route which was never a bargain I can assure you. I have spent much time in Cornwall during the winter. Not nearly as bleak as the Kent coast!
You have got it, I do see STN as a service for the tourists. 10.5k seats per annum isn't very many to fill for that purpose.
As for the comment about me not willing to pay a reasonable fare, you may note from a previous post I used to frequent the LCY route which was never a bargain I can assure you. I have spent much time in Cornwall during the winter. Not nearly as bleak as the Kent coast!
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Cloud 9
Posts: 2,948
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tommy,
When I go flying on scheduled services whether it be on business or leisure I want a suitable schedule, one big problem with loco one flight per day flights is that they fly when they want to and not at an optimum time of day to suit the passenger(s) ..... i.e. hotels have recognised check-in/check-out times, once does want to be arriving too early or departing too late!
If, by suggestion, there are a mere 4 flights per week and a Cornish local has a meeting in London to attend, perhaps a one hour meeting, then they would need to occupy 2 or 3 nights, at cost, in/near London, it just wouldn't happen, they'd take the car or train.
If someone needs to, let's say, travel to/from on a Wednesday but there are no flights on a Wednesday, they'll make alternative arrangements such as the car or train!
10.5k? Even 25 years ago there were more people travelling LON/NQY than 10.5k per annum, the HP7, five and two half days per week, let's say 32.5 pax per flight, that's over 20k pax per annum!
When I go flying on scheduled services whether it be on business or leisure I want a suitable schedule, one big problem with loco one flight per day flights is that they fly when they want to and not at an optimum time of day to suit the passenger(s) ..... i.e. hotels have recognised check-in/check-out times, once does want to be arriving too early or departing too late!
If, by suggestion, there are a mere 4 flights per week and a Cornish local has a meeting in London to attend, perhaps a one hour meeting, then they would need to occupy 2 or 3 nights, at cost, in/near London, it just wouldn't happen, they'd take the car or train.
If someone needs to, let's say, travel to/from on a Wednesday but there are no flights on a Wednesday, they'll make alternative arrangements such as the car or train!
10.5k? Even 25 years ago there were more people travelling LON/NQY than 10.5k per annum, the HP7, five and two half days per week, let's say 32.5 pax per flight, that's over 20k pax per annum!
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Ireland
Posts: 1,621
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That shows 19700 pax on LHR-NQY for 1989 jumping to 41200 in 1990 (some serious capacity increase there!). Of course there's no quick way to see how many of those were connecting in LHR.