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Ryanair loses court challenge to Labour Court enquiry

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Ryanair loses court challenge to Labour Court enquiry

Old 14th Oct 2005, 12:00
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Ryanair loses court challenge to Labour Court enquiry

From RTE news :

Ryanair loses bid on Labour Court inquiry

14 October 2005 12:35

Ryanair has lost its High Court bid to prevent the Labour Court investigating complaints by pilots over conditions at the airline.

Ryanair, which refuses to recognise unions, had challenged the Labour Court's entitlements to hear pilots' complaints represented by their union, Irish Air Line Pilots Association, under new industrial relations legislation.

Ryanair had argued that the industrial relations law effectively introduces compulsory union recognition by the back door and should not apply to a high-pay multinational like Ryanair.
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It also argued that the Labour Court had no jurisdiction to hear the case because the company has already got adequate internal bargaining and dispute resolution procedures.

It also alleged that the Labour Court had acted incorrectly and unfairly in deciding that it had jurisdiction to hear the case.

However, Mr Justice Michael Hanna found against Ryanair on every point.

His ruling clears the way for the Labour Court to carry out a substantive investigation of the pilots' complaints.

He refused to grant a stay on when that hearing should take place.

However, he awarded costs against Ryanair but allowed a stay of three weeks on the costs order.

It is understood that Ryanair's legal team will be considering the detailed ruling and has not yet made a decision on whether to appeal.
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Old 14th Oct 2005, 19:36
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Game On !!

Well Michael its now game on !!


I'm sure the LRC will do a professional job in dealing with the Pilots Claim.


Cliste
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Old 14th Oct 2005, 22:39
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Due to continuing legal pressure I will only entertain discussion of the thread topic. If the usual suspects want to turn every thread that involves Ryanair into the, oh so predictable slagfest, then do me a favour and find yourselves another channel for the repeats.

If you are not happy with anything about Ryanair then there are plenty of ongoing threads where you can voice your concerns. Anyone not happy with their customer service, terms & conditions of employment, destination names and distances from major cities etc. etc. then you only have to use the search function. What will not be entertained is 'brave', anonymous posters who make unsubstantiated allegations and damaging postings about things such as safety with no proof except their own opinions about what might happen at some time in the future.

If you are not happy with this situation then feel free to air your concerns to your local media who will no doubt be more than happy to take your anonymous viewpoint and air them for all and sundry. I'm sure they have a much bigger budget and will no doubt attract the legal eagles away from me.

There is only one airline that tries to gag what is aired here on PPRuNe and I am not prepared to have them repeatedly try and threaten me personally with injunctions and claims for damages because a few posters on here are not prepared to face up to them directly. Therefore, I will not permit any further publication of unfounded or libellous material which is in any way detrimental to the credibility of Ryanair or its safety record.

Of course, substantiated and founded material is acceptable. If you have a theory and you have first hand accountability then feel free to contact us here at PPRuNe where we will not hesitate to publish facts. As for the mob who bay at the door, we already know your point of view. Maybe it's time for some new blood and some substance to the allegations you keep harping on with. If you are not happy with the way Ryanair conducts its business and treats its employees then that is fair game but to start making unfounded assumptions about the safety is another issue.

Now, back to the topic. Ryanir has stated that it will immediately appeal the court decision. According to Ryanair, the "overwhelming majority" of the Dublin pilots had in the last three weeks again provided written confirmation of their support for the five year collective bargaining agreement that was negotiated directly between the pilots and Ryanair in 2000.

They also stated: "We are confident that the Supreme Court will find in our favour, because the 2004 Industrial Relations Act was not designed to apply to high pay multi-national companies in Ireland such as Ryanair, who engage in sophisticated internal collective bargaining which has resulted in better pay for Ryanair’s pilots than equivalent pilots employed by our competitors."


Maybe it's time to renegotiate the deal as it must be almost five years since a deal made five years ago.
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 01:32
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There is only one airline that tries to gag what is aired here on PPRuNe and I am not prepared to have them repeatedly try and threaten me personally with injunctions and claims for damages because a few posters on here are not prepared to face up to them directly.
But you're always prepared to take their advertising bucks.

I just don't get it. One day they're sueing you, next day you're flashing their adverts for crews???????

Please explain!!

Whose f**kin side are you on Danny!
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 04:40
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Hypothetically, Danny, just hypothetically now, might there not be a correlation between an organisations tendency to suppress critical comment and the existence of practices worthy of criticism?
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 08:12
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Of course, substantiated and founded material is acceptable
On at least two occasions I posted a link to the Accident Investigation web site with details of FR's track record. Both times the post was quickly deleted. It seems advertising money talks. Credibility is at stake here.
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 09:52
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As far as the topic is concerned:

If the Irish Labour Court causes Ryanair too many (expensive) problems, it is open to the company to change its domicile. There are now a number of EU countries that would be delighted if Ryanair incorporated there, and whose industrial relations law is potentially less restrictive.

Food for thought?
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 10:01
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On the subject of victimisation at Ryanair and how its affects flight safety. FR had an incident in Rome a week or so back. Its under investigation right now and the details will come out in the wash.Its looks like its a very serious incident. The point relevent to this discussion is that the captain was so afraid of Ryanair that he turned up to work days after suffering a huge personal tradegy. The sooner the labour court get investigating the company the better for all of us.
Danny dont see how you can take FR money with one hand and have them sue you with the other. In your post you have just cut right accross the whole point of this website. The very name of the website Professional Pilots RUMOUR Network iimplies that we are free to discuss aviation rumours. If you want to take this line perhaps you should change the website to Professional Pilots substantiated and founded material network? Doesnt really have the same ring to it - does it?
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 12:31
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I see my two wee harmless contributions were deleted. Funny that as nothing I said attacked Ryanair in any way. In fact do a search, I never have attacked them, only the bold Mr. LHC who is not Ryanair. There is I believe a difference unless someone has another interpretation of the law I am unaware of....
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 13:14
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I think RogerIrrelevant69 has a point. There were, for example, a number of posts that contained nothing other than a request for comments from a particularly well known Ryanair sympathiser - (who assured us all in many past posts that Ryanair would win everything and that the Dublin pilots were badly advised).
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 16:27
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I would suggest that someof you grow up and perhaps supply your details if you want to make 'unsubstantiated' allegations about Ryanair safety procedures. If a pilot shows up for work whilst unfit due to personal problems then how is it that that is Ryanairs fault? If you want to make allegations that it is Ryanairs fault then substantiate them. Just claiming that they are without offering substantiative proof is not good enough. Hopefully the labour court will look into practices that may be having an effect on how pilots may be making decisions that would cause those of us who work for different companies to act differently.

As for the fact that Ryanair advertise on here for pilots is irrelevant. PPRuNe does not need their advertising but they are astute enough to know that there are many pilots who read these forums and not everyone has the totally jaded view that some of the regular posters on here have. Ryanair have been advertising on PPRuNe for many years and that has not prevented posts which are negative about some aspects of the company, particularly the management style. If some of you have had posts deleted then it is because you have claimed or alleged something that does not stand up without proof. Feel free to provide your personal details so that I may forward the relevant legal threats for you to deal with personally.

As for the really brave posters who accuse me of taking their advertising revenue whilst being threatened with legal action because someone with as much knowledge of the law as a housbrick has decided that they can make allegations that are possibly libellous, I don't see the connection. Ryanair and its practices are debated in many threads, most of it detrimental to the company. However, there are also pilots who post supporting views of the company. Just because some of you don't like what is going on doesn't give you a right to post anything that is going to get me into legal trouble. If you are too thick to see the difference then perhaps I'm wasting my time trying to explain it to you.

As for the posts requesting LHC to come and make his antagonistic posts being removed, I did that because it doesn't need witless vocabulary to provoke it in the first place. Discuss the topic. In other words, play the ball, not the player.
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 17:49
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Hmm, sounds like someone is experiencing a sense of humour failure or perhaps an understanding of sarcasm. When I started that (deleted) jibe about LHC, I certainly did not want to provoke him onto this thread. Who would? Frankly if I ever have to read one of his tedious, threatening and moronic diatribes again, it will be too soon.

My comments were more a pre-emptive strike intended to shut this oaf up. I know this is highly unlikely as he has (as we Irish say) a neck like a jockeys nuts. No amount of well deserved ridicule stops him coming up with the same old rubbish time and time again. He has become almost like a government minister that you automatically assume is lying as soon as he opens his mouth.

I've no intention of getting into a pissing contest here but I think the phrase "witless vocabulary" may be rather better suited to LHC. But then it's not my site and I don't get to decide who I censor and who I don't.
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 21:52
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Danny,sorry, but like a few others hear I think your excuses for deleting a good number of the posts is a bit lame/contrived.Threatening to forward legal challenges to us individually on an "anonymous rumours website"kinda defeats the object of it all,doesn't it?I believe as a typical RYR employee that what I post is pretty balanced&accurate as are most comments here by actual employees.Sure there are one or two who milk it ,and, on the other side we have The Lovely Leo, but overall I think I prefer to post here for the benefit of those on the outside looking(to be?) in, than on REPA,which is generally preaching to the converted.I need these people to pay my wages but I (like so many others) know it could be so much better, and yes maybe even safer, for very little financial cost to RYR.If the "big one"ever happens will you rest easy knowing you gagged us?I think it is in everyones interests that the good&bad is shown here because,as sure as night follows day chaps&chapesses, your company will(one day)try and get away with what these guys currently do.Anything I write here is true, it needs no embelishment to make a good story.As for unsubstantiated rumours of people being "encouraged "to come to work when not 100% fit to fly,ask some of my more computer literate colleagues to cut and paste a copy of the "crewdock "message one receives ON the first day you are off sick (maybe in bed/hospital)and the one you receive if you have too many sick days in a year(not many incidentally)/ Anyone able to do that?Once the details of the"Rome incident" come to light you are going to be deleting a lot of posts or refusing to host the thread.Alternatively you could show some balls and do your brethern a favour by calling Ryanair's bluff and allowing free discussion of what is an important flight safety issue,( if we all respect your very reasonable guidlines),which is it to be?"They don't like it up them Mr Mainwaring"If it isn't libellous Danny please don't allow it to be kept out of the public eye,we are actually trying to make it better,for everyone,really!

Last edited by captplaystation; 15th Oct 2005 at 22:41.
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Old 15th Oct 2005, 22:02
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Irrespective of which organisation for which an individual may work, if he/she feels so intimidated by management reaction to his/her reporting unfit for duty when not adequately fit to perform that duty, then that is a fault of the management culture, not the individual.

We saw this in the military some years ago when errors and mistakes would often be concealed or played down in order to avoid incurring wrath from on high. On occasion that led to serious flying incidents, if not actual accidents.

And that's all I have to say about that.
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Old 16th Oct 2005, 05:40
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Nicely stated, captplaystation.
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Old 16th Oct 2005, 06:17
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Sounds to me like RYR are now intimidating Danny.

IALPA have shown that the RYR rush to law does not always work in their favour.

Stand up to them Danny!
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Old 16th Oct 2005, 07:58
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Every site that has been the source of criticism of Ryanair has been the subject of legal efforts by Ryanair to intimidate those controlling the site to remove contributions, or to prevent contributors from criticising Ryanair.

For an example of what this does to a site, have a look at this: Ryanair Campaign

I do not agree with what Danny has done, but I think we probably do not know the half of what is going on. I look at the history of PPRuNe and Danny's contribution and I can only conclude that Ryanair have launched some serious legal missives. To that extent Danny has my support and sympathy for his predicament.

Let us be clear about this: Ryanair has, at a minimum, an agressive stance towards anyone it perceives to act in a manner that is not in its interests. That's as mild as it can be stated. Others would look at the same corporate stance an say that verbal agression, insults and intimidation is a corporate style - both within and without the company. Anyone who has talked to a Ryanair employee of long-standing will be aware, as a matter of FACT that, at an absolute minimum, this perception is widely shared. Rightly or wrongly there are Ryanair employees fearful of what will happen to them in various circumstances.

Sufficient contributors to PPRuNe have given enough examples for this to be, if not "proved", established as something that any wise legislator, safety manager, etc. should treat seriously.

On this site, in the "victimisation" thread, was reproduced a Ryanair memo to Dublin pilots which clearly threatened them with serious consequences for not following the company line. Are we are expected to believe that a company that will WRITE some of the things we have seen in the past couple of years in an industrial context rigourously keeps the operational sphere free of such interference? Well, just look at the John Goss case and the role of the Chief Pilot, who was absent and unconcerned about stress until.... well a particular moment. What happened is a matter of public record and I remind everybody that Ryanair were ordered by the High Court to return Captain Goss to flying status against the wishes and expressed "judgment" of his management, and his Chief Pilot.

I noted two letters in Flight recently from the Irish Airline Pilots Association. Clearly these letters were dancing around the same difficulty. What I read them as saying (from memory) is that there is a gap between what the law says and corporate reality. They were, in effect, asking the Irish Aviation Authority to take an interest in this "gap". The IAA seems uninterested in the "gap". Maybe they too are fearful of the Ryanair lawyers? Or is it a case of "hear no evil, see no evil"?

On the other hand, IALPA has now had two serious encounters with Ryanair and has won both and Ryanair, despite their usual verbal gymnastics to the contrary, were the only party to pay legal costs.

The IALPA action, and where it is leading, should be discussed on this thread - as Danny says. However, the real issue for me is that if Ryanair are successful in supressing all comment - which they HAVE been - then a major failing will have taken place. I think that THIS is now the issue for discussion.
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Old 16th Oct 2005, 09:48
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No one on here is supressing comment. You can say what you like as long as it doesn't infringe any laws that can get me into trouble. What you need to do is read between the lines and if you're going to post, plan your comments very carefully so that others, who are aware of the problems of commenting about Ryanair management practices can also 'read between the lines'.

If you have any documentation that needs publishing then you can forward it to me as an attachment and it can be hosted on PPRuNe if it has relevance. I already have in my posession documentation from previous disputes and 'town hall' meetings.

It's all very well criticising me for making decisions on exactly how to balance the needs of PPRuNe and the needs of the readers. If it was that easy, I reckon there'd be a lot more competition out there. For the time being, the debate hasn't been stifled, just asking that you put a bit more thought into what you post, in light of the pressures I have to face here from Ryanairs legal representatives. If they're putting pressure on me then you know that what's written here is having the same effect on Ryanairs management team. Think about it.
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Old 16th Oct 2005, 12:01
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Fair nuff! thanks for that Danny;I think those of us actually involved in this daily are type-rated and line-checked on walking on eggs,we should be able to stick to what you have reasonably requested.
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Old 16th Oct 2005, 12:08
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How about sticking the word allegedly in all the right places.Will this work .
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