MANCHESTER
Join Date: Feb 2003
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From a passenger point of view certain parts of T1 are disgusting! Take for example arriving to the terminal through that hideous 1970's multi-storey car park....knock it down or at least have the decency to clad the bugger! Whoever planned it wants shooting - ugly filthy and nasty to use.
As for check-in, functional....at least those bloody chandeliers have gone in the main concourse! The departure lounge is ok, but what really lets it down is the cleanliness - have those roof drape things gone yet- last time I saw them they were filthy....really sets off the place...not.
Arrivals...again, functional if not tired. T2 is ok but not exactly in the same league as Munich, Copenhagen and the like. T3 is about the best, less shell suits
As for check-in, functional....at least those bloody chandeliers have gone in the main concourse! The departure lounge is ok, but what really lets it down is the cleanliness - have those roof drape things gone yet- last time I saw them they were filthy....really sets off the place...not.
Arrivals...again, functional if not tired. T2 is ok but not exactly in the same league as Munich, Copenhagen and the like. T3 is about the best, less shell suits
Join Date: Jan 2004
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Terminal 1 is hideous, I won't use it unless I really have to, i.e. no other airport has the destination. I find the arrivals experience horrid and embarassing. T2 is OK in that it's spacious, but what was the design ethic, total minimalism? It's like they forgot to design the interior once you go airside, one bar, a Starbucks and little more. It is the most characterless building I know of. T3 isn't bad to be honest.
MAN was a real winner, the SAS Radisson, the Skywalks etc, but seems to have lost a bit of direction.
The airfield bottleneck at Pier C just has to go, and it would be nice if the terminals had shops that weren't so downmarket.
MAN was a real winner, the SAS Radisson, the Skywalks etc, but seems to have lost a bit of direction.
The airfield bottleneck at Pier C just has to go, and it would be nice if the terminals had shops that weren't so downmarket.
Join Date: Jan 2006
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The problem with the whole T1 issue though is what to do about it. As pointed out by VHF Flyer, it is the old airport and although 'taping up' certain areas is not a long term solution, what more can be done? Short of knocking down the whole building and starting again, I really can't think of anything. Many would argue that this is the solution but how can any significant reconstruction work be done effectively without major disruption? T1 is, after all, the busiest terminal. Even during the quieter winter months and done in small stages, it would still be chaos. I agree about the state of the car park and also the piers which are very outdated and in need of, well, something! As i've previously mentioned, the T1 Arrivals Hall will shortly be getting upgraded and the Baggage Hall down there looks much smarter now. From my point of view at least, I really don't think that the public concourse or the departures lounge are all that bad. And don't forget, the majority of passengers are usually too busy worrying about missing their flight or whether they're sat together on the plane to notice the state of the carpet or how dirty the drapes are. I agree that MAN (particularly T1) is not up to scratch with many other major European airports but it has been voted as Best U.K Airport by the travelling public year after year, so it must be damn sight better than it's U.K counterparts surely? Personally, I like the T1 experience. It's got more of a buzz about it than the ridiculously quiet T2 and the somewhat claustrophobic T3.
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Fly ZB
You're right, the problem is what to do about it.
The historic layout of the terminal doesn't make sense and causes problems on the airfield with bottlenecks and the like.
Clearly things on a grand scale don't happen overnight - my own view is that in 10 years time a new T1 will be need to be on the ground and the time to start thinking about how that will happen is now.
It is a busy terminal but with the soon to happen expension of T2, with plenty of scope to expand further and the scope to expand T3, an opportunity will then exist to demolish T1 and fix all of the problems in one go.
Epic project though and will cost plenty. How to fund it is the question?
You're right, the problem is what to do about it.
The historic layout of the terminal doesn't make sense and causes problems on the airfield with bottlenecks and the like.
Clearly things on a grand scale don't happen overnight - my own view is that in 10 years time a new T1 will be need to be on the ground and the time to start thinking about how that will happen is now.
It is a busy terminal but with the soon to happen expension of T2, with plenty of scope to expand further and the scope to expand T3, an opportunity will then exist to demolish T1 and fix all of the problems in one go.
Epic project though and will cost plenty. How to fund it is the question?
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'Momentary Lapse' - I must take issue with two remarks made in your posting of 13 February timed at 15:12.
Firstly, in relation to past staff recruitment you write: "shame they were all white middle class men." Do you not see that this remark is both racist and sexist? It is completely unacceptable. If you have evidence that a better qualified candidate for a post was overlooked on the grounds of gender or skin colour then present it here. However, if the best qualified candidates were actually selected for the post(s) then why does it matter whether they are white, male or 'middle-class' (whatever that means these days). I put it to you that qualifications, aptitude and experience are the important factors in recruitment, not the three criteria you mention. It may have escaped your notice that approximately 90% of males in Britain are white; therefore they will comprise the largest part of the workforce. The opposite is the case in many other countries. Whatever the demographics, all potential employees have the right to be selected based on their suitability for the job, not upon narrow objectives imposed by a racist or sexist agenda. I will defend the right of ALL - including white males - to be employed according to their skills and aptitude alone.
On a quite different matter, you write about "rape of the countryside with the white elephant of R2." Firstly, may I suggest that you take a walk along the public footpath which parallels Runway 24L/06R on the South-Side. Look closely. What you will find is a remarkable piece of land now protected from the encroachment by the general public which is teeming with wildlife. The fenced-off area has become a nature reserve in it's own right (partly due to MAplc investment, by the way). I am not well-informed as a naturalist, but friends advise me that many species thrive on this land which are threatened elsewhere due to loss of hedgerows and encroachment by man. Take a good look and compare this land with the business parks, new roads and car parks which lie outside the airport boundary. Just where is the "rape of the countryside" again?
Within the same remark above you refer to R2 as a "white elephant". Again, I beg to differ. Note that throughout 2005 MAN's runway capacity was fully-allocated for long periods of the day, especially during Summer months. MAN has been able to accept business which could never have been available to the region in the days of a single-runway operation. This has been massively positive for employment and economic development in the North-West. I am the first to acknowledge that MAN is facing a downturn in traffic for 2006 (with oil at $60-$70bbl we won't be alone), but not to the extent that single runway ops would meet demand at crucial periods of the day. And if you really want to know what R2 has done for the environment, consider this rarely mentioned gem: the availability of twin-runway ops at MAN has MASSIVELY reduced air-holding for inbound traffic. Prior to R2 it was not unusual to have 12 inbound airliners at any given moment flying race-track patterns at BOLIN (remember BOLIN?) and DAYNE during the 0700-1000 and 1700-1900 periods; nowadays extended air-holding is extremely rare on a routine basis. Air-holding for MAN is now at a fraction of past levels, save for the inevitable low-vis days. So next time the 'greens' call R2 a "rape of the countryside" tell them about the huge reduction in air-holding. 10 minutes less fuel burned per peak-time inbound. Less waiting time at the holding point per outbound. Now THAT'S a positive contribution to the environment.
Cheers, SHED.
Firstly, in relation to past staff recruitment you write: "shame they were all white middle class men." Do you not see that this remark is both racist and sexist? It is completely unacceptable. If you have evidence that a better qualified candidate for a post was overlooked on the grounds of gender or skin colour then present it here. However, if the best qualified candidates were actually selected for the post(s) then why does it matter whether they are white, male or 'middle-class' (whatever that means these days). I put it to you that qualifications, aptitude and experience are the important factors in recruitment, not the three criteria you mention. It may have escaped your notice that approximately 90% of males in Britain are white; therefore they will comprise the largest part of the workforce. The opposite is the case in many other countries. Whatever the demographics, all potential employees have the right to be selected based on their suitability for the job, not upon narrow objectives imposed by a racist or sexist agenda. I will defend the right of ALL - including white males - to be employed according to their skills and aptitude alone.
On a quite different matter, you write about "rape of the countryside with the white elephant of R2." Firstly, may I suggest that you take a walk along the public footpath which parallels Runway 24L/06R on the South-Side. Look closely. What you will find is a remarkable piece of land now protected from the encroachment by the general public which is teeming with wildlife. The fenced-off area has become a nature reserve in it's own right (partly due to MAplc investment, by the way). I am not well-informed as a naturalist, but friends advise me that many species thrive on this land which are threatened elsewhere due to loss of hedgerows and encroachment by man. Take a good look and compare this land with the business parks, new roads and car parks which lie outside the airport boundary. Just where is the "rape of the countryside" again?
Within the same remark above you refer to R2 as a "white elephant". Again, I beg to differ. Note that throughout 2005 MAN's runway capacity was fully-allocated for long periods of the day, especially during Summer months. MAN has been able to accept business which could never have been available to the region in the days of a single-runway operation. This has been massively positive for employment and economic development in the North-West. I am the first to acknowledge that MAN is facing a downturn in traffic for 2006 (with oil at $60-$70bbl we won't be alone), but not to the extent that single runway ops would meet demand at crucial periods of the day. And if you really want to know what R2 has done for the environment, consider this rarely mentioned gem: the availability of twin-runway ops at MAN has MASSIVELY reduced air-holding for inbound traffic. Prior to R2 it was not unusual to have 12 inbound airliners at any given moment flying race-track patterns at BOLIN (remember BOLIN?) and DAYNE during the 0700-1000 and 1700-1900 periods; nowadays extended air-holding is extremely rare on a routine basis. Air-holding for MAN is now at a fraction of past levels, save for the inevitable low-vis days. So next time the 'greens' call R2 a "rape of the countryside" tell them about the huge reduction in air-holding. 10 minutes less fuel burned per peak-time inbound. Less waiting time at the holding point per outbound. Now THAT'S a positive contribution to the environment.
Cheers, SHED.
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Etihad
After the bad news about Cathay having to postphoned the Hong Kong service, I'm pleased to be able to report that the Etihad service to Abu Dhabi is now showing as being on sale for travel commencing 27th March.
Some positive news at last.
Scottie Dog
Some positive news at last.
Scottie Dog
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Hopefully SAS will be given the ground handling contract for EY, as we hold the UK rights for their ground handling and check it in at LHR. If this is the case, SAS will deal with the passenger handling side of things with Ringway given the baggage handling contract.
Cool Mod
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STOP!
There is a tendency for this thread to run off the rails with innuendo and snide remarks, not to mention racism. ALL are offensive and not going to be tolerated. We have rules on PPRuNe you all signed to uphold. We expect you to do that. If you cannot do that then be prepared to accept that we have the wherewithall to spoil your enjoyment of PPRuNe for as long as we want. No threat. Just a fact.
Please get this thread back on track and avoid us mods at all cost.
Just enjoy PPRuNe it doesn't require much to do that.PPP
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My apologies to both the mods and to Shed on a Pole. May I clarify?
1 White middle class men - merely an observation that the Rev Spooner seemed to employ and promote almost exclusively white middle age middle class men to his senior management team (I did not mean the whole workforce, which is clearly diverse, and I regret not making that distinction clear). This after several years of apparent discrimination against men in particular by the previous management culture who were more "PC" about gender and race. I do not seek to be sexist or racist and regret it if anyone reads my post as such. What I was thinking (but didn't say...) was that in a business that by definition touches all corners of the world, it is a shame that he limited his senior management team (and by extension his company's culture and point of view) to such a narrow slice of society. I have heard him on more than one occasion preaching about diversity, equality etc. and looked round the audience to see a sea of white male faces in grey suits. You'd be surprised to know my gender and race, which is not relevant to this thread, but it disappoints me to see such a narrowly-sourced pool of management. What would a visitor from for instance an Asian or Japanese airline think when he or she met the management team?
2 Bollin Valley - I saw the valley before, during and after construction. I am well aware that MA has planted 6 new trees for every 1 felled, installed bat boxes etc. and sprayed cash all around. However I would reply that they could have improved the environment in that area (more trees, bat boxes, fencing etc.) without dropping thousands of tonnes of concrete on it first. Now that would be altruistic...
3 Holding patterns - I know nothing about aircraft ops in the air so defer to your knowledge there. I am pleased to have learned something new today and will no doubt use it next time someone tries the green argument on me in the pub!
I was merely expressing my view. My sincere apologies if anyone took my comments in a way that was not intended.
1 White middle class men - merely an observation that the Rev Spooner seemed to employ and promote almost exclusively white middle age middle class men to his senior management team (I did not mean the whole workforce, which is clearly diverse, and I regret not making that distinction clear). This after several years of apparent discrimination against men in particular by the previous management culture who were more "PC" about gender and race. I do not seek to be sexist or racist and regret it if anyone reads my post as such. What I was thinking (but didn't say...) was that in a business that by definition touches all corners of the world, it is a shame that he limited his senior management team (and by extension his company's culture and point of view) to such a narrow slice of society. I have heard him on more than one occasion preaching about diversity, equality etc. and looked round the audience to see a sea of white male faces in grey suits. You'd be surprised to know my gender and race, which is not relevant to this thread, but it disappoints me to see such a narrowly-sourced pool of management. What would a visitor from for instance an Asian or Japanese airline think when he or she met the management team?
2 Bollin Valley - I saw the valley before, during and after construction. I am well aware that MA has planted 6 new trees for every 1 felled, installed bat boxes etc. and sprayed cash all around. However I would reply that they could have improved the environment in that area (more trees, bat boxes, fencing etc.) without dropping thousands of tonnes of concrete on it first. Now that would be altruistic...
3 Holding patterns - I know nothing about aircraft ops in the air so defer to your knowledge there. I am pleased to have learned something new today and will no doubt use it next time someone tries the green argument on me in the pub!
I was merely expressing my view. My sincere apologies if anyone took my comments in a way that was not intended.
Join Date: May 2002
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How Green is green - Vert !
Momentary Lapse Wrote :- Quote - 2 Bollin Valley - I saw the valley before, during and after construction. I am well aware that MA has planted 6 new trees for every 1 felled, installed bat boxes etc. and sprayed cash all around. However I would reply that they could have improved the environment in that area (more trees, bat boxes, fencing etc.) without dropping thousands of tonnes of concrete on it first. - Un-quote.Please forgive what may seem my total lack of understanding on this, but what would your solution be to such a problem should any other Airfield wish to accomadate an increase in air travel being demanded and thus increasing aircraft movements, which at some point will exceed the capacity of the only runway they have, BEFORE that point is reached?
I'm NOT having a go at you here ( Honest), but I'd just like to know what alternatives you have, when an Airport company want to grow a business because the growth is there, and the operators and public almost demand that they be accomadated, WITHOUT expanding the amount of Concrete at their disposal, be it Parking areas, Taxiways or Runways ?
I'm nearly always having a pop at Manchester these days for their ' Lack of Forsight' they have appeared to display over the last ten or so years, (compared to the good old days) in their "advance of demand planning and building". The ONLY exception to this has been Runway 2, which was probably on the drawing boards a long while back, and it has been a tremendous success.
How many Bat boxes has any of us put up? Nil I bet. How many Bat boxes would have been put up - again Nil. Would the places that Bats lived previously have now fallen down - I don't know? Are the the bats better off ? - you'd better ask them, but I would guess that yes they are!
All I'm asking is, what would your alternative be, that would enable an Aiport like Manchester to grow and to be able to handle 20 - 40 million passengers annually, without encroaching on green fields, trees, badgers, moles,rabbits, bats, newts, wood-lice, midges, and those little bas*** corn-flies that bite me !!
Green? - I've never seen Manchester airport look greener
Tin-hat is on, ready to receive incomming !!
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Hi Momentary Lapse,
Firstly, thankyou for your response to my posting and I do accept that you intend no offence. Likewise, I too intend no offence to any contributor or reader of this board.
Your new post does , however, put to us a new question: "What would a visitor from for instance an Asian or Japanese airline think when he or she met the management [of Manchester Airport]." Please permit me to answer this.
If you represented a British airline and made a business trip to meet executives of Narita, Haneda and Kansai Airports, would you be offended to discover that they are managed by Japanese people? Is it shocking that JAL and All Nippon are managed by Japanese people? Would you decide not to operate there because none of their senior executive teams are British? Likewise, is it an insult that Rome Airport is managed by Italians or Sao Paolo by Brazilians?
If you accept that the above is entirely proper and to be expected then please recognise that UK airports are in no way exhibiting prejudice by employing British citizens (regardless of skin colour etc) in key roles. It is the natural state of affairs. No airline is offended by finding any business to be run by the nationals of it's home country, and few would suggest that any prejudice is implied by this.
Manchester Airport has worked very hard to promote a culture of equality. Please do not rush to denigrate that with expectations which would not reasonably be asked of any business in any country. MAN's equal opportunities record is outstanding in comparison to most businesses worldwide.
Finally - and I don't mean to nit-pick here - when you say "an Asian OR Japanese airline" ... well I'm sure you realise that Japanese people are Asians. But I think I take your point.
To close, I simply ask you to recognise and compliment MAplc for their efforts in promoting equal opportunities and not try to publicly portray them as a 'rogue company' in this respect. I have seen no evidence to suggest that they deserve a "guilt trip" with regard to their equal opportunities record. Their heart is in the right place. Remember that this board is widely read, and "mud sticks."
Finally, I thank moderator 'PPRUNE Pop' for his comments. I hope that my defence of MAplc within this posting falls within your approved guidelines; if not, please delete it. My aim is simply to refute with detailed reasoning any suggestion that Manchester Airport is operated in a racist or otherwise inequitable manner.
All the best. SHED.
Firstly, thankyou for your response to my posting and I do accept that you intend no offence. Likewise, I too intend no offence to any contributor or reader of this board.
Your new post does , however, put to us a new question: "What would a visitor from for instance an Asian or Japanese airline think when he or she met the management [of Manchester Airport]." Please permit me to answer this.
If you represented a British airline and made a business trip to meet executives of Narita, Haneda and Kansai Airports, would you be offended to discover that they are managed by Japanese people? Is it shocking that JAL and All Nippon are managed by Japanese people? Would you decide not to operate there because none of their senior executive teams are British? Likewise, is it an insult that Rome Airport is managed by Italians or Sao Paolo by Brazilians?
If you accept that the above is entirely proper and to be expected then please recognise that UK airports are in no way exhibiting prejudice by employing British citizens (regardless of skin colour etc) in key roles. It is the natural state of affairs. No airline is offended by finding any business to be run by the nationals of it's home country, and few would suggest that any prejudice is implied by this.
Manchester Airport has worked very hard to promote a culture of equality. Please do not rush to denigrate that with expectations which would not reasonably be asked of any business in any country. MAN's equal opportunities record is outstanding in comparison to most businesses worldwide.
Finally - and I don't mean to nit-pick here - when you say "an Asian OR Japanese airline" ... well I'm sure you realise that Japanese people are Asians. But I think I take your point.
To close, I simply ask you to recognise and compliment MAplc for their efforts in promoting equal opportunities and not try to publicly portray them as a 'rogue company' in this respect. I have seen no evidence to suggest that they deserve a "guilt trip" with regard to their equal opportunities record. Their heart is in the right place. Remember that this board is widely read, and "mud sticks."
Finally, I thank moderator 'PPRUNE Pop' for his comments. I hope that my defence of MAplc within this posting falls within your approved guidelines; if not, please delete it. My aim is simply to refute with detailed reasoning any suggestion that Manchester Airport is operated in a racist or otherwise inequitable manner.
All the best. SHED.
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Does anybody know anything about Rowena Burns...?
Apparently she has been at the airport a number of years, so appears to be an internal appointment.
Is this perm' or temporary cover ?
Can we expect sombody to get a good handbagging...!
Apparently she has been at the airport a number of years, so appears to be an internal appointment.
Is this perm' or temporary cover ?
Can we expect sombody to get a good handbagging...!
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RB was Group Strategy Director, so it's a widening of an existing role rather than an internal promotion. Prior to this she was an advisor to the council committee that oversaw the airport in the 90s.
Rumour has it that she was put in place to 'keep an eye on' GM by the shareholders who don't like/trust him. Allegedly. I couldn't possibly comment.
The reorg seems to leave some fairly substantial gaps in the management structure at the moment, so watch this space...Olympic House must be a very interesting place to work at the moment!
Rumour has it that she was put in place to 'keep an eye on' GM by the shareholders who don't like/trust him. Allegedly. I couldn't possibly comment.
The reorg seems to leave some fairly substantial gaps in the management structure at the moment, so watch this space...Olympic House must be a very interesting place to work at the moment!
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Shed
Thankyou for your comments. I concur with you that you would expect to see nationals running their own companies. My point was I think that the Rev Spooner was preaching a message about ethnic and gender balance that he wasn't demonstrating with his behaviour when recruiting his senior team.
MA has targets to meet for gender, ethnicity and disability as a % of the workforce. Yet MA's senior management team is exclusively white, middle aged, middle class, able bodied and I think all male. Message versus behaviour?
Adola69: Re R2 - I fell for the Yes to R2 rhetoric at the time and felt guilty and ashamed some years later when I saw the concreting of the countryside. The argument above is based on the assumption that growth is good. I question its goodness as the price was for me too high. MA could have done all the bat box and tree planting thing without the runway being built. I believe that with more imaginative pricing to discourage small aircraft especially in the peak, and to encourage more off peak activity, throughput could be massively increased with a single runway (see LGW with one runway, higher throughput, due to larger a/c and better peak spreading). Spooner and McDermott have started to do this with great success. Shame the Fat Controller couldn't have been more imaginative during his period of presiding over waste and stagnation.
Coasthugger: Finally Ms Burns. Interesting allegation. You may think so but I couldn't possibly comment.
Thankyou for your comments. I concur with you that you would expect to see nationals running their own companies. My point was I think that the Rev Spooner was preaching a message about ethnic and gender balance that he wasn't demonstrating with his behaviour when recruiting his senior team.
MA has targets to meet for gender, ethnicity and disability as a % of the workforce. Yet MA's senior management team is exclusively white, middle aged, middle class, able bodied and I think all male. Message versus behaviour?
Adola69: Re R2 - I fell for the Yes to R2 rhetoric at the time and felt guilty and ashamed some years later when I saw the concreting of the countryside. The argument above is based on the assumption that growth is good. I question its goodness as the price was for me too high. MA could have done all the bat box and tree planting thing without the runway being built. I believe that with more imaginative pricing to discourage small aircraft especially in the peak, and to encourage more off peak activity, throughput could be massively increased with a single runway (see LGW with one runway, higher throughput, due to larger a/c and better peak spreading). Spooner and McDermott have started to do this with great success. Shame the Fat Controller couldn't have been more imaginative during his period of presiding over waste and stagnation.
Coasthugger: Finally Ms Burns. Interesting allegation. You may think so but I couldn't possibly comment.
Last edited by Momentary Lapse; 16th Feb 2006 at 10:50.