ATL refuses to accomodate A380
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20driver:
To my knowledge, the business-class-only services from DUS to the U.S. were originally offered to meet a high demand from local business travellers who did not want to go through FRA on their way across the Atlantic. Apparently the ratio of prospective business travellers to prospective cattle class pax living in the highly populated and industrialised Dusseldorf area was larger than than the corresponding seat distribution on regular wide-body ac's. Therefore it made sense to offer an additional "business only" flight.
In my personal opinion, I would prefer sitting on the top floor of a conventional wide-body aircraft. It might be irrational thinking, but larger aircraft simply feel safer to me, especially on long-haul trips. But I haven't made "zed3"s A319 experience yet, so I cannot really say anything at this point.
To my knowledge, the business-class-only services from DUS to the U.S. were originally offered to meet a high demand from local business travellers who did not want to go through FRA on their way across the Atlantic. Apparently the ratio of prospective business travellers to prospective cattle class pax living in the highly populated and industrialised Dusseldorf area was larger than than the corresponding seat distribution on regular wide-body ac's. Therefore it made sense to offer an additional "business only" flight.
In my personal opinion, I would prefer sitting on the top floor of a conventional wide-body aircraft. It might be irrational thinking, but larger aircraft simply feel safer to me, especially on long-haul trips. But I haven't made "zed3"s A319 experience yet, so I cannot really say anything at this point.
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El Lute:
I was not aware of the hefty contribution made by US suppliers to the A380 project. I also really don't care because really, where else are they going to get the engines and avionics from?
My point remains:
Let the individual operators pony up for the upgrades. It is the general concensus over here that the A380 is really too large for most of the markets that american carriers serve. It really benefits only a few if the government decides to provide the upgrades for a select few foreign carriers. What do you think will be the politically correct decision over here?
As far as the troll comment....Bite me....
TallBloke:
I feel that Mr. Boyd went overboard with his attempts at humor. He should leave that to the bottom-feeders like myself. Some of it was funny though!
El Lute:
In response to your question about Boeing/Douglas vs. Airbus:
1st: There are many aspects that I do like about the Bus over the others....Better air conditioning....short pre-flight...comfortable seats....
There are more than a few aspects that I don\'t like when considering it from a safety standpoint. I\'ll address the one that impacts me on a daily basis:
V speed mini. I think that although a good concept, and one practiced manually by aviators for a long time in the form of Vapp additives, the potential for overcompensation and the resultant excessive speed over the threshold is unsafe in certain conditions.
Alot of a pilots\' perception of an aircraft is based on his/her comfort level with the airplane. One question that can be used to determine that comfort level is "Would I choose one aircraft over the other if I found myself inadvertantly in a TX or severe turbulence?" I can tell you that having experienced those conditions in all three types, that I definately choose Boeing/Douglas over the Bus. When the Airbus got to my airline, there were some structural integrity issues involving the upper surface of the fuselage delaminating/seperating. It just "feels" like a cheaply built aircraft as well.
I was not aware of the hefty contribution made by US suppliers to the A380 project. I also really don't care because really, where else are they going to get the engines and avionics from?
My point remains:
Let the individual operators pony up for the upgrades. It is the general concensus over here that the A380 is really too large for most of the markets that american carriers serve. It really benefits only a few if the government decides to provide the upgrades for a select few foreign carriers. What do you think will be the politically correct decision over here?
As far as the troll comment....Bite me....
TallBloke:
I feel that Mr. Boyd went overboard with his attempts at humor. He should leave that to the bottom-feeders like myself. Some of it was funny though!
El Lute:
In response to your question about Boeing/Douglas vs. Airbus:
1st: There are many aspects that I do like about the Bus over the others....Better air conditioning....short pre-flight...comfortable seats....
There are more than a few aspects that I don\'t like when considering it from a safety standpoint. I\'ll address the one that impacts me on a daily basis:
V speed mini. I think that although a good concept, and one practiced manually by aviators for a long time in the form of Vapp additives, the potential for overcompensation and the resultant excessive speed over the threshold is unsafe in certain conditions.
Alot of a pilots\' perception of an aircraft is based on his/her comfort level with the airplane. One question that can be used to determine that comfort level is "Would I choose one aircraft over the other if I found myself inadvertantly in a TX or severe turbulence?" I can tell you that having experienced those conditions in all three types, that I definately choose Boeing/Douglas over the Bus. When the Airbus got to my airline, there were some structural integrity issues involving the upper surface of the fuselage delaminating/seperating. It just "feels" like a cheaply built aircraft as well.
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This is the first time that I have read one of these threads from beginning to end and I've decided to give my 2 cents worth....
I'm an American living in Germany and I have no connection to Airbus or Boeing.
I remember the days in the early 70's when the first 747's arrived and adjustments had to be made. Those that wanted their services made the necessary adjustments... either right at the start or later when they discovered how successful the plane was. EVERYONE was skeptical as to whether a pax would want to fly in a plane with sooooooo many people at once.
I, as a pax, am NOT looking forward to flying a 380! Just the thought of the long lines at check-in and especially immigration make my stomach turn! But as a pax I won't have much choice if that's the plane that takes me where I want to go.
All this hype about bars and shops on the plane... nonsense! I used to fly Lufthansa stand-by and often got upgraded. They used to have a nice bar on the top deck, then they had lounge chairs, then sleepers.... all dropped to add more seats! The flights to LAX and other USA ports were always so full that I often feared of getting bumped. The demand was there, but the airlines calculate the cost... sometimes not resulting in less comfort for the pax.
Oh, yes.. we would love to have had the Concorde fly to Germany, but it's too inland and the noise made it not possible (noise abatement is a big issue here). It did fly to an airshow in Frankfurt-Hahn some years ago where I got to see it. I think that was the one and only time it was allowed here.
I don't understand why anyone should bash anyone else! Competition, no matter in what form, has always been GOOD for everone!! In Germany you get evil stares from your neighbors if you dare to show up in a Japanese built car... I know, I dared to own a Toyota once! They cry "buy German" over here!! I now own a Skoda (love it) after owning a VW which caused only problems (I had a Mercedes for 11 years and hated it! but my ex-German husband thought he needed it as a status symbol
).
I go along with Toulous.... stop this silly childish bashing!! It doesn't do ANYONE any good!
Westy
I'm an American living in Germany and I have no connection to Airbus or Boeing.
I remember the days in the early 70's when the first 747's arrived and adjustments had to be made. Those that wanted their services made the necessary adjustments... either right at the start or later when they discovered how successful the plane was. EVERYONE was skeptical as to whether a pax would want to fly in a plane with sooooooo many people at once.
I, as a pax, am NOT looking forward to flying a 380! Just the thought of the long lines at check-in and especially immigration make my stomach turn! But as a pax I won't have much choice if that's the plane that takes me where I want to go.
All this hype about bars and shops on the plane... nonsense! I used to fly Lufthansa stand-by and often got upgraded. They used to have a nice bar on the top deck, then they had lounge chairs, then sleepers.... all dropped to add more seats! The flights to LAX and other USA ports were always so full that I often feared of getting bumped. The demand was there, but the airlines calculate the cost... sometimes not resulting in less comfort for the pax.
Oh, yes.. we would love to have had the Concorde fly to Germany, but it's too inland and the noise made it not possible (noise abatement is a big issue here). It did fly to an airshow in Frankfurt-Hahn some years ago where I got to see it. I think that was the one and only time it was allowed here.
I don't understand why anyone should bash anyone else! Competition, no matter in what form, has always been GOOD for everone!! In Germany you get evil stares from your neighbors if you dare to show up in a Japanese built car... I know, I dared to own a Toyota once! They cry "buy German" over here!! I now own a Skoda (love it) after owning a VW which caused only problems (I had a Mercedes for 11 years and hated it! but my ex-German husband thought he needed it as a status symbol
).I go along with Toulous.... stop this silly childish bashing!! It doesn't do ANYONE any good!
Westy
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Managednav,
Sorry but I'm not sure waht you are refering to as only a joke, but not to worry. And yes you guessed correctly, I'm an Irishman, but who didn't move to Paris, but to............. TOULOUSE, after passing through another number of countried. I do appreciate your comments on what you prefer on Airbus and what you don't like about them. You're a pilot, more than me (I am professionnally connected to aviation, and to a certain extent Airbus, yet I'm not an Airbus employee... have enev done the oddthing directly for Boeing, but I don't like your earlier comment saying that "pilots prefer Boeing and MD over Airbus". This is your opinion. I've met many pilots who prefer flying Airbus, as I've met many who prefer Boeing.
DC10Realman... Excellent comments. Well done.
Westwind1950... I also congratulate you on your opinion.
At least there seems to be less "Airbus bashing, Europe bashing, Non-American bashing, America bashing, France bashing, Boeing bashing"... if only this could last...
Sorry but I'm not sure waht you are refering to as only a joke, but not to worry. And yes you guessed correctly, I'm an Irishman, but who didn't move to Paris, but to............. TOULOUSE, after passing through another number of countried. I do appreciate your comments on what you prefer on Airbus and what you don't like about them. You're a pilot, more than me (I am professionnally connected to aviation, and to a certain extent Airbus, yet I'm not an Airbus employee... have enev done the oddthing directly for Boeing, but I don't like your earlier comment saying that "pilots prefer Boeing and MD over Airbus". This is your opinion. I've met many pilots who prefer flying Airbus, as I've met many who prefer Boeing.
DC10Realman... Excellent comments. Well done.
Westwind1950... I also congratulate you on your opinion.
At least there seems to be less "Airbus bashing, Europe bashing, Non-American bashing, America bashing, France bashing, Boeing bashing"... if only this could last...
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Managed Nav, I've not flown the A320, but assuming G/S Mini operates the same way that it does on other fly by wire Airbus types, then it should not carry 'excessive speed' to the threshold. The (G/S) minimum speed is VLS plus 1/3 of tower headwind component as inserted in the Perf page). Below 400 feet the target speed will be Vapp plus 1/3 of the current headwind minus 1/3 of headwind as inserted in the Perf page. Thus if the wind is the same, there is no extra speed carried. If there was a difference, then I guess you might expect windshear at the latter stages, which is, after all, one of the beauties of the system, it will protect you to a certain extent, by keeping energy on your side.
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Close on the 1/3 part, but it applies to Vapp, not GSmini. For the 320 it is:
Vapp = Vls + 5 knots + 1/3 of the runway headwind component (up to a 15 kt increase)
GSmini = Vapp - runway headwind (a minimum headwind of ten kts is assumed)
Depending on what the conditions are along the ILS (wind dir/spd) you can end up crossing the threshold at up to 15kts in excess of computed Vapp. My solution to this by the way is to go selected speed and input my own additive (no more than 10 knots). This results in a much more stabilized approach as opposed to the thrust continuously being jockeyed around on the approach.
Have you ever sat in the back of an airplane during an approach where a pilot continuously moves the throttles back and forth. I consider that poor form. VSmini, under certain circumstances, can result in excessive speed over the threshold.
Vapp = Vls + 5 knots + 1/3 of the runway headwind component (up to a 15 kt increase)
GSmini = Vapp - runway headwind (a minimum headwind of ten kts is assumed)
Depending on what the conditions are along the ILS (wind dir/spd) you can end up crossing the threshold at up to 15kts in excess of computed Vapp. My solution to this by the way is to go selected speed and input my own additive (no more than 10 knots). This results in a much more stabilized approach as opposed to the thrust continuously being jockeyed around on the approach.
Have you ever sat in the back of an airplane during an approach where a pilot continuously moves the throttles back and forth. I consider that poor form. VSmini, under certain circumstances, can result in excessive speed over the threshold.
Last edited by ManagedNav; 5th Feb 2005 at 13:06.
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20driver wrote:
The all B class 737 really represents a stealth threat to the A 380, and other wide bodies. For most routes the airlines are relying on a few B class passengers - 10% or so - to pay for the most of the flight. If those passengers get siphoned off it really is going to wack the route economics big time. I'm sure all business 787 service LHR_HKG is going to be far more attractive than waiting for them to load 550 bodies into an A380. I’m surprised Virgin hasn’t looked at this idea.
The all B class 737 really represents a stealth threat to the A 380, and other wide bodies. For most routes the airlines are relying on a few B class passengers - 10% or so - to pay for the most of the flight. If those passengers get siphoned off it really is going to wack the route economics big time. I'm sure all business 787 service LHR_HKG is going to be far more attractive than waiting for them to load 550 bodies into an A380. I’m surprised Virgin hasn’t looked at this idea.
ManagedNav wrote:
I was not aware of the hefty contribution made by US suppliers to the A380 project. I also really don't care because really, where else are they going to get the engines and avionics from?
I was not aware of the hefty contribution made by US suppliers to the A380 project. I also really don't care because really, where else are they going to get the engines and avionics from?
ManagedNav wrote:
Let the individual operators pony up for the upgrades. It is the general concensus over here that the A380 is really too large for most of the markets that american carriers serve. It really benefits only a few if the government decides to provide the upgrades for a select few foreign carriers. What do you think will be the politically correct decision over here?
Let the individual operators pony up for the upgrades. It is the general concensus over here that the A380 is really too large for most of the markets that american carriers serve. It really benefits only a few if the government decides to provide the upgrades for a select few foreign carriers. What do you think will be the politically correct decision over here?
No airline will buy the A380 if it can't find an economic case to do so, but there are a large number of European and Asian airlines for whom the aircraft makes much sense. Equally, no airport will waste money it can't recover by building facilities that won't be used - and thus won't be paid for - by their airline customers. A few airports may decide that they'd rather (or they must) lose trade by not providing the facilities even though there is a demand, for reasons of loyalty to resident carriers, or because the demand is insufficient to be economic, or because there simply isn't the real estate available to expand sufficiently.
Finally, in my opinion there will be some US passenger carriers that will order the aircraft. Those that wish to continue serving the crowded European hubs, which have (and will continue to have) little or no capacity for increasing movements, will need an alternative to increasing frequencies as a a way of growing their market. If you can't fly more often, you must fly more people in each flight. Boeing has effectively abandoned that market, therefore the A380 is now the only game in town for these airlines.
Last edited by Digitalis; 5th Feb 2005 at 12:54.
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"No airline will buy the A380 if it can't find an economic case to do so, but there are a large number of European and Asian airlines for whom the aircraft makes much sense. Equally, no airport will waste money it can't recover by building facilities that won't be used - and thus won't be paid for - by their airline customers. A few airports may decide that they'd rather (or they must) lose trade by not providing the facilities even though there is a demand, for reasons of loyalty to resident carriers, or because the demand is insufficient to be economic, or because there simply isn't the real estate available to expand sufficiently."
Very well said.......
Very well said.......
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Managed Nav, thanks.
It is interesting that the A320 has a different system to the other types, where Vapp is VLS + a minimum of 5kts (or 1/3 the headwind, whichever is larger to a maximum of VLS + 15kts). Also I take it that the A320 does not reduce the wind component added to Vapp, below 400 feet to 1/3 (the current headwind minus tower reported wind). On 330/340 types a ten knot headwind on the runway would be an addition of 3kts to VLS (albeit minimum to give Vapp = + 5kts), and if at say two hundred feet the headwind was 30 kts then the addition would be (30-10/3)= 7kts onto Vapp. This addition is approximately equivalent to VLS + 1/3 of the current headwind being experienced at the a/c.
Anyhow vive la difference.
It is interesting that the A320 has a different system to the other types, where Vapp is VLS + a minimum of 5kts (or 1/3 the headwind, whichever is larger to a maximum of VLS + 15kts). Also I take it that the A320 does not reduce the wind component added to Vapp, below 400 feet to 1/3 (the current headwind minus tower reported wind). On 330/340 types a ten knot headwind on the runway would be an addition of 3kts to VLS (albeit minimum to give Vapp = + 5kts), and if at say two hundred feet the headwind was 30 kts then the addition would be (30-10/3)= 7kts onto Vapp. This addition is approximately equivalent to VLS + 1/3 of the current headwind being experienced at the a/c.
Anyhow vive la difference.
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I think the issue is that nobody has expressed an interest in flying the 380 to ATL. A 380 is more of an airplane for airports with very restricted capacity.
MEM is already being upgraded for Fed Ex. They are currently the only US operator with the 380 on order.
The big issues for Concorde in the US were sonic booms and noise.
Seems to me last time I flew in Europe there were plenty of noise requirements there too. And lots of restrictions on who can fly into where and when they can do it.
Not much protectionism here in the US. We are busy exporting factories and importing everything else.
MEM is already being upgraded for Fed Ex. They are currently the only US operator with the 380 on order.
The big issues for Concorde in the US were sonic booms and noise.
Seems to me last time I flew in Europe there were plenty of noise requirements there too. And lots of restrictions on who can fly into where and when they can do it.
Not much protectionism here in the US. We are busy exporting factories and importing everything else.
20driver.....give me the all buisness B737/A319 any day . One big advantage - straight off the a/c , no waiting for people to get coats/duty free/bags out of lockers in a cramped aisle . I counted only eight bags at baggage claim in DUS for +/- 40 pax.
Evidently New York has a different view than Atlanta.
http://nydailynews.com/front/story/278032p-238044c.html
http://nydailynews.com/front/story/278032p-238044c.html
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"The foreign airlines that operate Kennedy Airport's Terminal 1 will rebuild four passenger gates to receive the 1.2 million-pound, double-decker Airbus A380, which was just unveiled last month to great fanfare."
Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout! As it should be........
P.S. Don't take that as Euro/Airbus bashing for all you people (Panda, FlipFlop) with an inferiority complex.......For those who don't know what I'm talking about, please refer to earlier posts claiming that I have an "inferiority complex".
"Bueler? Bueler? Anyone? Bueler?"
Now that's what I'm talkin' 'bout! As it should be........
P.S. Don't take that as Euro/Airbus bashing for all you people (Panda, FlipFlop) with an inferiority complex.......For those who don't know what I'm talking about, please refer to earlier posts claiming that I have an "inferiority complex".
"Bueler? Bueler? Anyone? Bueler?"
Last edited by ManagedNav; 7th Feb 2005 at 04:27.
