US threatens WTO action on Airbus
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Wino,
If hypothetically speaking the EU were to concede that Airbus’s subsides were to be restructured, so that soft loans and other state aid were no longer permitted, would you be willing to accept this if it was also conditional on the on the US government being no-longer able to extend the protection that is offered to US carriers using Chapter 11 as a stalling process to clearly long over due bankruptcy?
The air transport market has long been distorted by this as well.
If the US pursues this line with the WTO, I suspect that this is the line which will be adopted by the Europeans in response.
This would not be good news for either Boeing or airbus at the moment
If hypothetically speaking the EU were to concede that Airbus’s subsides were to be restructured, so that soft loans and other state aid were no longer permitted, would you be willing to accept this if it was also conditional on the on the US government being no-longer able to extend the protection that is offered to US carriers using Chapter 11 as a stalling process to clearly long over due bankruptcy?
The air transport market has long been distorted by this as well.
If the US pursues this line with the WTO, I suspect that this is the line which will be adopted by the Europeans in response.
This would not be good news for either Boeing or airbus at the moment
Last edited by colossus; 23rd Sep 2004 at 18:37.
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Probably Fairchild-Dornier would have more reasons to complain about the Euro$ going to Airbus. And let’s not forget Fokker as well.
EU people (specially the laid-off workers of those builders) are defenitely not worried with the future of Boeing. If the EU invests tax money to keep the its industry running smoothly, I guess thats a good way of spending MY money.
GD&L
EU people (specially the laid-off workers of those builders) are defenitely not worried with the future of Boeing. If the EU invests tax money to keep the its industry running smoothly, I guess thats a good way of spending MY money.
GD&L
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Colossus,
WHile I agree that the chapt 11 process is not perfect, it is not the panecea that most seam to think it is. VERY few airlines survive chapter 11, and the percentages of European airlines surviving deep structural problems is much greater than the USA airlines. Recent examples of Swiss and ALitalia come to mind.
BA and AirFrance survived similar problems that wound up removing Eastern and PanAm from the market place.
But on the whole I would LOVE to see airlines actually fail faster. At the moment there are more barriers to getting out of aviation than there are to getting into it.
Cheers
Wino
WHile I agree that the chapt 11 process is not perfect, it is not the panecea that most seam to think it is. VERY few airlines survive chapter 11, and the percentages of European airlines surviving deep structural problems is much greater than the USA airlines. Recent examples of Swiss and ALitalia come to mind.
BA and AirFrance survived similar problems that wound up removing Eastern and PanAm from the market place.
But on the whole I would LOVE to see airlines actually fail faster. At the moment there are more barriers to getting out of aviation than there are to getting into it.
Cheers
Wino
"Better by whose definition?
They buy what they want and need for the job at hand."
Well if you're asking who thinks the A330 MRTT is better than the KC767, then I do for starters.
More fuel to offload. More freight capacity. More passengers. Simultaneously. Better field performance. More modern boom system. Systems proven on the A310 MRTT now in service with the Luftwaffe.
BETTER, in other words.....
They buy what they want and need for the job at hand."
Well if you're asking who thinks the A330 MRTT is better than the KC767, then I do for starters.
More fuel to offload. More freight capacity. More passengers. Simultaneously. Better field performance. More modern boom system. Systems proven on the A310 MRTT now in service with the Luftwaffe.
BETTER, in other words.....
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Better includes a guaranteed level of support and spares, something that is especially crucial in wartime.
If there is one thing that Iraq taught us, it is that we will not be able to count on France for Support, therefore it would be EXCEPTIONALLY fool hardy to buy any sort of system that depends on manufacturer support for our military from the EU...
That is part of what makes something better. A Guarantee that it will be useable when you need it.
Cheers
Wino
If there is one thing that Iraq taught us, it is that we will not be able to count on France for Support, therefore it would be EXCEPTIONALLY fool hardy to buy any sort of system that depends on manufacturer support for our military from the EU...
That is part of what makes something better. A Guarantee that it will be useable when you need it.
Cheers
Wino
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Associated Press
Airbus CEO Accuses Boeing of 'Untruths'
Tuesday September 28, 4:55 pm ET
By Laurence Frost, AP Business Writer
Noel Forgeard, Head of Airbus, Accuses Rival Boeing of Leading 'Campaign of Untruths'
PARIS (AP) -- The head of Airbus SAS accused rival Boeing Co. of leading a "campaign of untruths" against the European aircraft maker, and gave the clearest sign yet that Airbus plans to develop a new competitor to the Boeing 7E7.
Airbus CEO Noel Forgeard made the comments in an interview published Tuesday by the financial daily Les Echos, at a time of mounting tension between the United States and the European Union over public subsidies to Airbus and Boeing.
Boeing CEO Harry Stonecipher has urged European governments to stop granting loans that account for roughly one-third of Airbus' development spending -- the limit set in a 1992 pact between Brussels and Washington.
The U.S. government has also threatened to scrap the pact and challenge Airbus funding at the World Trade Organization.
But Forgeard said that about two-thirds of the Boeing 7E7's $9 billion development cost came from public aid, most of which was not repayable -- unlike loans to Airbus.
"This offensive is therefore a massive campaign of untruths, whose principal aim is to protect the 7E7's enormous subsidies," Forgeard said.
Boeing has staked its future in civil aviation on the 7E7, a long-range, fuel-efficient mid-sized jet due to be launched in 2008.
A decision to launch a WTO panel could backfire against Boeing, Forgeard warned. "I think they would be the most embarrassed if they were forced to show their cards."
Boeing is keen to prevent Airbus from drawing on public aid to build a rival to the 7E7.
Airbus delivered more jets than Boeing for the first time last year, and so far has 139 orders for its $282 million A380 "superjumbo," which is due to take to the sky in 2006.
Forgeard also acknowledged that there was a growing need for longer-range, mid-sized planes. But with 240 seats in its initial version, Boeing's new plane "is a bit small," he said.
"The economic performance would be better from a larger plane with about 270 seats," he added. "We are thinking about such a plane with several clients."
The new plane would be called the A350, Forgeard said, confirming recent reports in the aviation press.
"Using technologies already developed for the A380 and new-generation engines, it would be very competitive with the 7E7 and, furthermore, based on tried and tested technologies," he said.
Boeing shares fell 19 cents to close at $52.32 Tuesday on the New York Stock Exchange. The shares are up from about $35 a year ago.
Airbus CEO Accuses Boeing of 'Untruths'
Tuesday September 28, 4:55 pm ET
By Laurence Frost, AP Business Writer
Noel Forgeard, Head of Airbus, Accuses Rival Boeing of Leading 'Campaign of Untruths'
PARIS (AP) -- The head of Airbus SAS accused rival Boeing Co. of leading a "campaign of untruths" against the European aircraft maker, and gave the clearest sign yet that Airbus plans to develop a new competitor to the Boeing 7E7.
Airbus CEO Noel Forgeard made the comments in an interview published Tuesday by the financial daily Les Echos, at a time of mounting tension between the United States and the European Union over public subsidies to Airbus and Boeing.
Boeing CEO Harry Stonecipher has urged European governments to stop granting loans that account for roughly one-third of Airbus' development spending -- the limit set in a 1992 pact between Brussels and Washington.
The U.S. government has also threatened to scrap the pact and challenge Airbus funding at the World Trade Organization.
But Forgeard said that about two-thirds of the Boeing 7E7's $9 billion development cost came from public aid, most of which was not repayable -- unlike loans to Airbus.
"This offensive is therefore a massive campaign of untruths, whose principal aim is to protect the 7E7's enormous subsidies," Forgeard said.
Boeing has staked its future in civil aviation on the 7E7, a long-range, fuel-efficient mid-sized jet due to be launched in 2008.
A decision to launch a WTO panel could backfire against Boeing, Forgeard warned. "I think they would be the most embarrassed if they were forced to show their cards."
Boeing is keen to prevent Airbus from drawing on public aid to build a rival to the 7E7.
Airbus delivered more jets than Boeing for the first time last year, and so far has 139 orders for its $282 million A380 "superjumbo," which is due to take to the sky in 2006.
Forgeard also acknowledged that there was a growing need for longer-range, mid-sized planes. But with 240 seats in its initial version, Boeing's new plane "is a bit small," he said.
"The economic performance would be better from a larger plane with about 270 seats," he added. "We are thinking about such a plane with several clients."
The new plane would be called the A350, Forgeard said, confirming recent reports in the aviation press.
"Using technologies already developed for the A380 and new-generation engines, it would be very competitive with the 7E7 and, furthermore, based on tried and tested technologies," he said.
Boeing shares fell 19 cents to close at $52.32 Tuesday on the New York Stock Exchange. The shares are up from about $35 a year ago.
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US scraps aviation deal with Europe; files WTO case over Airbus
WASHINGTON (AFP) - The United States opened an aviation trade war over European subsidies to Airbus, scrapping a 12-year-old accord and filing a World Trade Organization complaint.
The US attack, launched in the run-up to the November 2 presidential election, makes good on President George W. Bush's threat to take the politically charged case to the global trade body.
US Trade Representative Robert Zoellick released a statement saying the United States had been trying to convince Europe to halt billions of dollars in "unfair subsidies" to Airbus.
"But the EU and Airbus appear to want to buy more time for more subsidies for more planes," he said Wednesday.
"That isn't fair, and it violates international trade rules. Since we could not agree, the United States decided to pursue resolution through the agreed procedures of the multilateral trading system, by bringing a WTO case before an international dispute resolution panel."
The United States said it had decided to scrap a 1992 transatlantic accord, which had allowed European governments to extend repayable, royalty-based loans up to one-third of the costs of developing new aircraft.
"Consistent with today's decision to move forward with a WTO case, the United States also exercised its right, as provided by the 1992 agreement's terms, to terminate that agreement," the USTR said.
In Brussels, the European Trade Commissioner Pascal Lamy, who leaves his post at the end of the month, promised a fight ahead.
"The US move in the WTO concerning European support to Airbus is obviously an attempt to divert attention from Boeing's self-inflicted decline," he said in a statement.
"If this is the path the US has chosen, we accept the challenge, not least because it is high time to put an end to massive illegal US subsidies to Boeing which damage Airbus, in particular those for Boeing's new 7E7 programme."
US giant Boeing Co. has been raising concerns here that Airbus will use European government subsidies to launch a rival plane to its planned twin-aisle fuel-efficient Dreamliner 7E7 jet.
In a US election year, Boeing's campaign has added bite.
Bush told Boeing Co. aviation workers during a campaign rally in Seattle, Washington, August 14 that he was ready to take a case to the WTO over the Airbus subsidies.
Since its creation, Airbus has overtaken Boeing in many aviation sectors and Bush said the government payments were "unfair."
"Boeing shares the government's view that EU subsidies to Airbus -- now a successful and profitable company -- must cease," Boeing president and chief executive Harry Stonecipher said.
"We remain determined to ensure that competition in the large commercial aircraft market is undistorted by such subsidies."
Zoellick said the United States had urged the Europeans to agree that neither side should provide new subsidies to aircraft manufacturers.
"That's a fair offer," he said.
The United States was still interested in reaching a new agreement with the Europeans, the US trade chief said.
"The United States remains interested in an agreement that ends all new subsidies. So as this case proceeds, we remain open to negotiating a new accord as long as it ends the new subsidies," Zoellick said.
In Geneva, WTO officials confirmed the United States had triggered the disputes settlement procedure by asking for formal consultations with the European Union (news - web sites) over subsidies to Airbus.
The two parties now have 60 days to start negotiations to find a solution to the dispute on their own, a WTO spokesman said.
If they fail to find a negotiated settlement, the WTO will then appoint an independent panel of experts at the request of the United States to examine and rule on the complaint.
The US attack, launched in the run-up to the November 2 presidential election, makes good on President George W. Bush's threat to take the politically charged case to the global trade body.
US Trade Representative Robert Zoellick released a statement saying the United States had been trying to convince Europe to halt billions of dollars in "unfair subsidies" to Airbus.
"But the EU and Airbus appear to want to buy more time for more subsidies for more planes," he said Wednesday.
"That isn't fair, and it violates international trade rules. Since we could not agree, the United States decided to pursue resolution through the agreed procedures of the multilateral trading system, by bringing a WTO case before an international dispute resolution panel."
The United States said it had decided to scrap a 1992 transatlantic accord, which had allowed European governments to extend repayable, royalty-based loans up to one-third of the costs of developing new aircraft.
"Consistent with today's decision to move forward with a WTO case, the United States also exercised its right, as provided by the 1992 agreement's terms, to terminate that agreement," the USTR said.
In Brussels, the European Trade Commissioner Pascal Lamy, who leaves his post at the end of the month, promised a fight ahead.
"The US move in the WTO concerning European support to Airbus is obviously an attempt to divert attention from Boeing's self-inflicted decline," he said in a statement.
"If this is the path the US has chosen, we accept the challenge, not least because it is high time to put an end to massive illegal US subsidies to Boeing which damage Airbus, in particular those for Boeing's new 7E7 programme."
US giant Boeing Co. has been raising concerns here that Airbus will use European government subsidies to launch a rival plane to its planned twin-aisle fuel-efficient Dreamliner 7E7 jet.
In a US election year, Boeing's campaign has added bite.
Bush told Boeing Co. aviation workers during a campaign rally in Seattle, Washington, August 14 that he was ready to take a case to the WTO over the Airbus subsidies.
Since its creation, Airbus has overtaken Boeing in many aviation sectors and Bush said the government payments were "unfair."
"Boeing shares the government's view that EU subsidies to Airbus -- now a successful and profitable company -- must cease," Boeing president and chief executive Harry Stonecipher said.
"We remain determined to ensure that competition in the large commercial aircraft market is undistorted by such subsidies."
Zoellick said the United States had urged the Europeans to agree that neither side should provide new subsidies to aircraft manufacturers.
"That's a fair offer," he said.
The United States was still interested in reaching a new agreement with the Europeans, the US trade chief said.
"The United States remains interested in an agreement that ends all new subsidies. So as this case proceeds, we remain open to negotiating a new accord as long as it ends the new subsidies," Zoellick said.
In Geneva, WTO officials confirmed the United States had triggered the disputes settlement procedure by asking for formal consultations with the European Union (news - web sites) over subsidies to Airbus.
The two parties now have 60 days to start negotiations to find a solution to the dispute on their own, a WTO spokesman said.
If they fail to find a negotiated settlement, the WTO will then appoint an independent panel of experts at the request of the United States to examine and rule on the complaint.
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Who has more to lose ? - WTO Boeing vs Airbus
US and Europe launch subsidies battle
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/ea4b2a3a-17...0e2511c8.html?
Who has more to lose (Toulouse) ?
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/ea4b2a3a-17...0e2511c8.html?
Who has more to lose (Toulouse) ?
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busine...8_doors11.html
Boeing hires French firm to build doors for 7E7s
By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER AEROSPACE REPORTER
A French aviation firm in the back yard of Airbus has been selected by The Boeing Co. to supply the doors for its 7E7 Dreamliner.
It is the first time a French company has been awarded major airframe structural work on a Boeing jet.
Two more French companies will also have a share of the 7E7 work, Boeing said. Boeing previously awarded four other French companies 7E7 work.
The latest announcements, at a Paris news conference yesterday, come on the heels of the U.S. complaint with the World Trade Organization about European government subsidies for Airbus.
Despite the WTO action and its bitter rivalry with Airbus, Boeing has encouraged French companies to participate in the 7E7 program as a way to build trans-Atlantic partnerships.
With the selection of Latecoere, a French aviation pioneer based in Toulouse, to provide the 7E7 passenger doors, Boeing has picked all its suppliers that will make the plane's fuselage airframe.
"This selection is an extraordinary opportunity for Latecoere ... to enter a new era spanning the next 20 to 30 years with a major aircraft manufacturer like Boeing," Francois Bertrand, chief executive officer of Latecoere, said in a statement. "Latecoere looks forward to a role in developing a mutually beneficial business relationship on this innovative aircraft program."
Bertrand told reporters in Paris the door contract represents more than $1 billion in work for his company.
Boeing also announced that Messier-Bugatti, a unit of the French aerospace group Snecma, will provide electric brakes and wheels for the 7E7, which will be the first jetliner to use electro-mechanical actuators rather than a hydraulic-powered brake system.
The Goodrich Corp., based in North Carolina, will also supply electric brakes for the 7E7, Boeing said. Airlines can choose either Messier-Bugatti or Goodrich brakes for their 7E7s, Boeing said.
In Paris, Yves Leclere, chairman of Messier-Bugatti, said the Boeing contract is worth between $1 billion and $1.5 billion to his company.
The growing list of French partners on the 7E7 will also include two U.S. subsidiaries of the French group Zodiac.
New-Jersey-based Air Cruisers, which was established in 1935 and produced the first inflatable life vests, will supply the passenger escape slides on the 7E7. The company has provided Boeing with aircraft escape slides since the 707.
Monogram Systems, the other Zodiac subsidiary based in Carson, Calif., will develop the 7E7 water and waste systems. It is a longtime Boeing supplier and worked closely with Boeing in the late 1970s to develop the first commercial aircraft vacuum waste system for the 767, according to Boeing.
Zodiac said the two contracts from Boeing are worth more than $1 billion in new business.
Four other French companies were selected by Boeing earlier this year to be among its partners on the 7E7.
Messier-Dowty will provide the main and nose landing gear for the 7E7.
Thales was awarded a contract for an electrical power conversion system for the 7E7
Labinal, a Snecma group subsidiary that has operations in the United States, will supply electrical wiring systems for the 7E7.
Labinal recently acquired a Boeing electrical wiring unit in Corynt, Texas.
Boeing has estimated that each 7E7 will have about 330,000 feet of cables and electrical wiring.
Dassault System makes the software that engineers are already using to design and develop the 7E7, a twin-engine jet scheduled to enter service with airlines in 2008. It will carry from 200 to 300 passengers, depending on the cabin configuration.
Boeing's ties with French-based companies is not unique to the 7E7.
The company's 737s are powered exclusively with CFM engines built by Snecma-General Electric.
Boeing hires French firm to build doors for 7E7s
By JAMES WALLACE
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER AEROSPACE REPORTER
A French aviation firm in the back yard of Airbus has been selected by The Boeing Co. to supply the doors for its 7E7 Dreamliner.
It is the first time a French company has been awarded major airframe structural work on a Boeing jet.
Two more French companies will also have a share of the 7E7 work, Boeing said. Boeing previously awarded four other French companies 7E7 work.
The latest announcements, at a Paris news conference yesterday, come on the heels of the U.S. complaint with the World Trade Organization about European government subsidies for Airbus.
Despite the WTO action and its bitter rivalry with Airbus, Boeing has encouraged French companies to participate in the 7E7 program as a way to build trans-Atlantic partnerships.
With the selection of Latecoere, a French aviation pioneer based in Toulouse, to provide the 7E7 passenger doors, Boeing has picked all its suppliers that will make the plane's fuselage airframe.
"This selection is an extraordinary opportunity for Latecoere ... to enter a new era spanning the next 20 to 30 years with a major aircraft manufacturer like Boeing," Francois Bertrand, chief executive officer of Latecoere, said in a statement. "Latecoere looks forward to a role in developing a mutually beneficial business relationship on this innovative aircraft program."
Bertrand told reporters in Paris the door contract represents more than $1 billion in work for his company.
Boeing also announced that Messier-Bugatti, a unit of the French aerospace group Snecma, will provide electric brakes and wheels for the 7E7, which will be the first jetliner to use electro-mechanical actuators rather than a hydraulic-powered brake system.
The Goodrich Corp., based in North Carolina, will also supply electric brakes for the 7E7, Boeing said. Airlines can choose either Messier-Bugatti or Goodrich brakes for their 7E7s, Boeing said.
In Paris, Yves Leclere, chairman of Messier-Bugatti, said the Boeing contract is worth between $1 billion and $1.5 billion to his company.
The growing list of French partners on the 7E7 will also include two U.S. subsidiaries of the French group Zodiac.
New-Jersey-based Air Cruisers, which was established in 1935 and produced the first inflatable life vests, will supply the passenger escape slides on the 7E7. The company has provided Boeing with aircraft escape slides since the 707.
Monogram Systems, the other Zodiac subsidiary based in Carson, Calif., will develop the 7E7 water and waste systems. It is a longtime Boeing supplier and worked closely with Boeing in the late 1970s to develop the first commercial aircraft vacuum waste system for the 767, according to Boeing.
Zodiac said the two contracts from Boeing are worth more than $1 billion in new business.
Four other French companies were selected by Boeing earlier this year to be among its partners on the 7E7.
Messier-Dowty will provide the main and nose landing gear for the 7E7.
Thales was awarded a contract for an electrical power conversion system for the 7E7
Labinal, a Snecma group subsidiary that has operations in the United States, will supply electrical wiring systems for the 7E7.
Labinal recently acquired a Boeing electrical wiring unit in Corynt, Texas.
Boeing has estimated that each 7E7 will have about 330,000 feet of cables and electrical wiring.
Dassault System makes the software that engineers are already using to design and develop the 7E7, a twin-engine jet scheduled to enter service with airlines in 2008. It will carry from 200 to 300 passengers, depending on the cabin configuration.
Boeing's ties with French-based companies is not unique to the 7E7.
The company's 737s are powered exclusively with CFM engines built by Snecma-General Electric.
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Wino
So exactly what part of a KC767 is better than a A330MRTT?
Fuel burn? Payload? Cost? Reliability? Performance? Do you really want me to go on?. If you were comparing the A300-600 to a 767-300ER or a A332 to a B772 then I could understand your argument. You need to check out the specs.,Man.
So exactly what part of a KC767 is better than a A330MRTT?
Fuel burn? Payload? Cost? Reliability? Performance? Do you really want me to go on?. If you were comparing the A300-600 to a 767-300ER or a A332 to a B772 then I could understand your argument. You need to check out the specs.,Man.
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Pontious,
The 767 is the best tanker because it matches the USAF size/weight requirements.
The A330 is 50% heavier than the 767 and would be a replacement for the KC10.
The USAF has never had the intention to replace the KC135 by a KC10-sized jet, and Airbus rethoric won't change that.
If the USAF wanted to get an A330 sized jet, they would probably investigate converted MD11 tankers as a cheaper alternative.
BTW, it's no secret that the 767 is a more fuel efficient aircraft than the A330.
The 767 is the best tanker because it matches the USAF size/weight requirements.
The A330 is 50% heavier than the 767 and would be a replacement for the KC10.
The USAF has never had the intention to replace the KC135 by a KC10-sized jet, and Airbus rethoric won't change that.
If the USAF wanted to get an A330 sized jet, they would probably investigate converted MD11 tankers as a cheaper alternative.
BTW, it's no secret that the 767 is a more fuel efficient aircraft than the A330.
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US & EU will work out new agreement
Boeing news link
Boeing Statement on U.S.-EU Announcement to Negotiate a New Large Commercial Aircraft Agreement
(Attributable to Harry Stonecipher, President and Chief Executive Officer, The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA])
CHICAGO, Jan. 11, 2005 -- We’re pleased that the United States and the European Union have taken an important step toward ending subsidies to establish much-needed balance in the commercial aircraft market.
Boeing is encouraged by the good faith displayed by both governments, as evidenced by their understanding not to provide additional development and production support and to refrain from pursuing WTO litigation during the time they are negotiating.
In addition to ending subsidies, we also welcome the expressed intent to incorporate into an agreement transparency and strong dispute-settlement procedures.
Boeing will continue to support and work with the U.S. government during the negotiations, and looks forward to the conclusion of a meaningful agreement to end subsidies.
Boeing Statement on U.S.-EU Announcement to Negotiate a New Large Commercial Aircraft Agreement
(Attributable to Harry Stonecipher, President and Chief Executive Officer, The Boeing Company [NYSE: BA])
CHICAGO, Jan. 11, 2005 -- We’re pleased that the United States and the European Union have taken an important step toward ending subsidies to establish much-needed balance in the commercial aircraft market.
Boeing is encouraged by the good faith displayed by both governments, as evidenced by their understanding not to provide additional development and production support and to refrain from pursuing WTO litigation during the time they are negotiating.
In addition to ending subsidies, we also welcome the expressed intent to incorporate into an agreement transparency and strong dispute-settlement procedures.
Boeing will continue to support and work with the U.S. government during the negotiations, and looks forward to the conclusion of a meaningful agreement to end subsidies.
