Sun Air eclipse, we're gone
 

Hi folks, as a Sun Air pilot, I can confirm that Sun Air is ceasing operations tommorow, Friday the 13(amazing).

SAA has bought and closed down Sun Air, Aircraft will be ferried back to Johannesburg Friday night. SAA will take on the passengers and have said that they will interview all Sun Air staff.
SAA is rumoured to have advised allied airlines, Comair, Nationwide ,SA Express and SA Airlink to hold all their pilot positions, as SAA will be placing 60 Sun Air EX pilots.
By the way, I did my last flight today

Unemployed/jumbo Mouse

Sorry to hear that... hope that you are one of those who get picked up by SAA

JJ

Sorry to hear about your company Jumbo.......best of luck with SAA...

SAA bought 75% of Sun Air and closed it down within minutes. My thoughts are definitely with the many employees and their families affected by this. I can only hope that SAA honours their word and employs a good deal of Sun Air's award winning staff. The future of the cockpit crew would appear to be somewhat unclear, and many conflicting and unsubstantiated stories are floating around the industry at present. Time will tell once the initial dust has settled. The South African airline industry has proved to be very unforgiving in the past, and this is shown to be true again today. An unlucky and sad Friday the 13th indeed.

sorry to hear of your closure, we have some SA pilots with us and always on the look out let us know what u have on your licence, good luck

Sorry to hear it, guys. Good old bully-boy SAA reverting to type, once more.
Good luck, Sun Air guys, we're holding thumbs for you.

Tired, sorry to see that you feel that SAA are the bad boys in this case. I don't know about reverting to type, this deal was brokered by the new boss, not the 'old boys club' of yesteryear.
My understanding (limited as it may be) is that Sunair was up the creek without a paddle, big time. SAA started to negotiate with them about 3 weeks before the collapse, planning a 3 month inquiry as to the viability of the airline, when events started to overtake even them. The decision was made, in conjunction with Comair (25% shareholder), the black empowerment group (the remaining 75%), SAA (as the only big/stable airline in the region) and the government Competitions Board, that a steady, controlled liquidation was much more preferable to the shambles that followed the Phoenix collapse.
Matbe SAA should have stayed out, not put a rescue plan into place for all the Sunair pax, and not paid the employees salaries until the end of the month (and interviewed most of the ground staff and cabin crew for jobs), and let the Sunair management explain to everybody why there was no pay past 15th August, no flights for those who'd paid for their tickets, etc.
Sure, SAA did not do this all from the good of their hearts, there will be some payback, maybe just in pax who now have to use SAA, or gaining some excellent staff, but either way, I think it was better as an orderly liquidation than a slow crumble to nothing.
Well, we're all entitled to an opinion!
skyvan

Skyvan - as I understand it, both Virgin and SAA were interested in buying into Sun Air about 3 months ago. When it became obvious that Virgin was quite serious SAA stepped in and threatened an all out price-war unless Sun Air gave them a 3 month exclusive option, or whatever it's called. It sounds to me like Virgin lost the plot at this stage because SAA duly ended up with it's 3 month pre-emptive clause, the result of which is that Sun Air is now no more.
I know that SAA has been promising to employ as many of Sun Air's staff as they can, but to my knowledge nothing has yet happened. Early days yet, I know, lets just hope SAA keeps it's word.
As I'm sure you'll point, out there's been no underhand dealings by SAA - all just good, hard bussiness, I agree. Still and all, I get the distinct impression that SAA took the opportunity to get rid of a competitor that has been a thorn in it's side for quite a few years.
As you say, we're all entitled to an opinion.

I'm curious if the fact that Sun Air was run by something called "black capital" to promote "black tourism" had any bearing on how people were recruited to the airline, and if it was visibly more "black" than other SA airlines in terms of cockpit and pilot crews' ethnical backgrounds.

Was the Sun Air demise somehow related to animosities between "old" and "new" business circles in South Africa ?


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Jan-Erik Andelin
MD80 INTERNATIONAL FORUM
http://surf.to/md80

Well, as we all could have assummed, the big
SAA has advised it will not be employing any pilots.(surprise,surprise)

Let me just clarify something here.
SAA where negotiating with Sun Air to take a major share in the airline, Sun Air was given a game plan, including new routes(SAA internal and regional)- operation was to be as a seperate entity.

In the interim Virgin and a private company was interested in a stake in Sun Air, the "black consortium" with the major share in Sun Air struck up a deal with SAA(obviously underhanded) giving SAA a 3 month option on their intention to purchase. In the interim Virgin was lost but the private buyer persisted and vigorously persued a stake in Sun Air-only to be shafted by the "black consortium" - tks South Africa

Sun Air had made good profit until the "black consortium" started milking the cow-Sun Air. This "black consortium" was the same group of scabangers that ran PePsi S.A. into the ground in 9 months.

At this stage the liquidation process seems to be a grey area at present, no liquidation as yet.

Virtually until the signing by SAA, Sun Air was under the impression that it was to be run as a seperate entity as a feeder airline to SAA-Shafted.

By the way, Md80 forum, we had no black cockpit crew.

Alot of cabin and ground staff have been given 1 month contracts with SAA, can you believe it.

Anyway, if you folk know of any jobs for MD80 or DC9 crew, please could you forward the information, it would dearly be appreciated by 66 unemployed pilots.

Tks
jumbo Mouse (without cheese or an aeroplane)

As skyvan said, we are all entitled to an opinion, so here's mine. Up until yesterday, the only "facts" of the matter were those put out by SAA. I know the victor gets to write the history books, but perhaps a little bit of honesty would not go amiss here.
As jumbo says, SAA led the management of Sun Air up the garden path with promises (mentioned by jumbo) that were just too good to believe. Perhaps management was naive to believe them, but perhaps they never considered possible the events that ensued. SAA was the instigator of a vicious price war that sparked an anti-competitive court case against it by Sun Air, Comair and Nationwide. Sun Air had up until this year always returned a profit, but this price war dragged on for nine months, and Sun Air suffered. SAA showed interest in an equity agreement with Sun Air, but was obviously not going to get into bed with a company that was sueing it. Sun Air withdrew from the court case and SAA got three months exclusivity in which to have a look at Sun Air. This also served to keep the other suitor, Virgin, out of the picture.

SAA decided to buy Sun Air out, and within minutes shut it down. Rethabile, who had incompetently attempted to run Sun Air, had sold the staff down the river. They have apparently made a tidy profit from this deal.

The mythical rescuer, the magical Mr SAA, is not helping all of the Sun Air pax. Only gold and silver aireward members are having their tickets honoured, the rest must go on standby for flights that are totally overbooked. Apparently SAA was going to put on extra flights to cater for the additional pax; there was little evidence of this. And why not help them? As they can no longer fly Sun Air, these frequent flyers will be a welcome boost to an airline which could really give lessons on making a loss!

I agree that it was all just good old hard business from CA at SAA, and if you are an SAA employee, to be applauded. The almost 800 employees of Sun Air who have nothing more than promises at this stage, it is a little more difficult to swallow. As far as jobs for staff go, the only ones who seem to be in luck are the cabin attendants, as they are to be interviewed. Once again, why not? Sun Air's cabin crew were a vital ingredient in making it the best domestic carrier for so many years in a row. Also, by giving these staff one month contracts, doesn't it take them out of the loop nicely if the liquidation does not go through.

I'm sure SAA will attempt to put the entire situation in as favourable a light (to it) as possible. It would seem though, that the press is slowly waking up, as more unbiased pieces have started appearing since yesterday.

Make no mistake, it is only a matter of time before the whole truth of the matter comes out, and I think it is going to be a tale of double-dealing and back-stabbing to rival "Dallas".




[This message has been edited by Banoi (edited 20 August 1999).]

Well said, Banoi and jumbo Mouse. Skyvan although I admire your loyalty to your company, I'm afraid you're farting against thunder. SAA might be run by new faces, but the old arrogant, bully boy attitude is still there. With each day that goes past it becomes more apparent that this whole episode was purely to get rid of a competitor that has shown SAA up to be a 3rd rate airline year after year. "A steady, controlled liquidation" that would "look after the interest of the Sun Air" pax I think you said? I presume you wrote that tongue in cheek, if not you're living in dream world, boy. As Banoi points out, SAA does not have the capacity to fly all the extra pax, so they're on standby. I think I'd rather have my interests looked after by someone else, thanks!
While on this sorry subject, anyone else from foreign airlines who is reading this - be awarec that SAA has placed an embargo on all rebated (ID90)travel by staff of other airlines. If you are have been planning to use your interline agreements to travel in South Africa in the next few weeks it would seem you will have to make other plans. Nice one, SAA, I sincerely hope my airline is doing to your staff what you have done to me.

Hi Neal sorry to hear what happened.

Just a little news from the other side of the fence at Comair. Comair started interview some of the Sun Air pilots on Monday already. So those guys and gal who haven't dropped off a C.V best do so, as I understand our needs are filled for the year but with the demise of Sun Air it may lead the way open for more expansion.
Comair has been taking as many Sun Air pax as we can.
Such a pity to see to see an airline go down after a price war initiated by a bankrupt airline that keeps going with our tax money.
Before all the SAA types shout "we're profitable this year", I believe that to be creative bookkeeping (That's from a source who's reportedly seen the books). Even if SAA were making a profit they are still Billions of rand in the red, or don't SAA have to pay back there loses, thats what the taxman is for.

[This message has been edited by Antman (edited 19 August 1999).]

Sorry to read about the Sun Air pilots losing their jobs. Are there any labor protective provisions that might give you all preference in interviews anywhere? The US provisions here a joke. It sounds like the business climate there is just as fascist as ours.

The local radio news has just announced that Sun Air may be in a position to effect a recovery. It would appear that SAA rushed the gate a bit, and government is now questioning the whole matter. There is apparently an issue regarding R20 million that was never paid on privatisation. Government is questioning whether SAA could have bought Sun Air. Intersting. More later.

Banoi - that's good news. Holding thumbs for you all.

Hhhhmmmm ... Looks like there's a story "behind the news" here ... If there is I'd like to tell it (I'm a Journalist). The word on the street is that black empowerment 'fat cats' drove Sun Air into the ground and pocketed the profits, I'd like to tell the story. Trying to verify these allegations is proving near impossible. So far, I've done nothing but run into brick walls. If any of you have info (that can be substantiated!!) I'd appreciate it if you dropped me a line ... My personal e-mail address is: [email protected]

Thanks.

Hi Jumbo Mouse

Thank you for your support and effort so far.
It is about time that somebody set the record straight.

To Skyvan

Considering the facts that the Taxman (including yourself) forked out millions to subsidize your over inflated salary. I refer to an article published in the Sunday Times (29 November 1998), (Odette Quesnel - I hope you start taking notes) SAA's losses for the time period 1996/97 = R323 million,
1997/98 = R314 million, and for the next six months up to end of September 1998 = R207 million.

With such financial success, I would not pass comment on other airline's financial state of afairs.

I would like to bring the following point under the attention of the International Aviation Community. With reference to the jobs, being created by SAA for Ex-Sun Air cabin crew, I would like to point out that the R2700,00 per month (US $450) without medical or any other benefits is not something to be thankful about. "Maybe an "overpaid" First Officer would appreciate such a salary."

Keep in mind the wheel turns. Enjoy the ride while on top. (Never is a very long time).

To Antman,

De Freitas is that you? Thank you for your support, it is appreciated.

Thanks

SH.....T happens!!
We all are entitled to an opinion.

Goodness me! Some people can only believe that Goliath is bad, and David is lilywhite.
I'm sorry to all who feel that I denigrated Sunair in my post, as I stated, what I posted was my understanding of the situation. If you feel that SAA was sneaky and underhanded, and it was not right, again you are welcome to your opinions. Unfortunately, in the business world, it seems that morality has no place (worse luck for all). If the SAA management saw a way to close down one of the opposition companies, then took the opportunity, then such is business, but don't put all the blame on SAA's door, as has been stated earlier, the owners of the 75% of Sunair that SAA bought must also carry some of the blame.
Please don't think that I am unsympathetic to the plight of the staff, being unemployed in SA right now is not something I would wish on my worst enemy. Good luck to you all.
I actually hope that the staff can get the rescue bid together, at times like this, the country needs employees, not the unemployed. Also I think that Sunair was/is a great airline. It's a pity the owners did not think so.
By the way, the comment about the cabin crew salary is a bit silly, don't you think. It may not be as much as they were paid at Sunair, but with allowances (both domestic and international), it can't be too bad. Probably a lot better than not working at all.
As to my being an overpaid first officer, I'll bet if you were offered my salary, you'd also take it. So calm down. This may be the opportunity that gives you the job you've always wanted, maybe not, but it is the hand that life has dealt you.
As has been said, the wheel turns. In the past, SAA had to stand back while Comair, Sunair and others were setting up, and taking SAA pax. Not necessarily a bad thing, competition is good for standards. Now SAA did not stand back, and removed an opponent. I'm sure that the wheel will turn again, and then SAA will suffer then. So be it.
To quote one of the regular PA chirps
"Life is what you make it, and if you don't make it, that's Life"

[This message has been edited by skyvan (edited 20 August 1999).]

Coleman Andrews is quoted in the Financial Mail of the 20th August as saying that Sun Air only had sufficient funds to continue operations until Saturday, the day after Sun Air ceased flying.
Skyvan says,"Unfortunately, in the business world, it seems that morality has no place (worse luck for all). If the SAA management saw a way to close down one of the opposition companies, then took the opportunity, then such is business."
Would some-one please explain to me why a businessman, with his company's best interests presumably at heart, decided to try and buy out an airline that was going to fold up the next day anyway. Please don't tell me it was because he was protecting the ticketholders; those people still could have been carried by SAA without having to acquire Sun Air. Protecting the staff? They could still have been interviewed and hired if found suitable.
Was SAA forced into attempting to save the black empowerment group Rethabile from embarassment, so that at least they would be able to walk away from Sun Air with their finances intact? Did Coleman rush in, and bungle it, now causing government to have to step in to save itself from embarassment?
Something smells bad in this kitchen, and it ain't the soup.

Let me guess - antman : Anton
banoi : Keith
ex sun : Johan
and skyvan : number 501 or is it 536 SAA!!!

Thanks for your support folk,AH!, it looks like the wheels turning back already, skyvan, DUCK.

jumbo Mouse

Nice try no Zol
I agree about the other 2 but guess again.
Cheers

Outjies,

Doesn't matter whether the majority shareholders are lack, pink, yellow or green, none of them can think any further than fattening their own wallets. "They had the best interests of the company at heart!" my ass!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Good luck to all of you back home, it is no better in the first world. Just had it done to me too!!!!!!!

Vasbyt!

Jumbo mouse, sorry, you must be using a different list to mine!
Banoi, the purchase is not so much just the airline, but the licence to operate. If SAA buy Sunair, then the Sunair licence goes to SAA. If anyone else wants to now operate, they have to go the whole hog of applying for a new licence, which, financially is not too much of a problem, but can be dragged out for quite a while. So, by buying Sunair, and then closing it, SAA have effectively delayed Virgin,or any others, from buying a ready made and immediately operable entity.
While I feel for the pilots, and the anger they feel at SAA not recruiting them straight away, as with other staff, the reality is that SAA already has enough pilots, besides, many Sunair pilots had been interviewed by SAA in the past, but ended up working for another airline. It's a pity, but one FO salary will pay 9 FA salaries, and we need FAs, not FOs.
Again, that's only my opinion, if I"m still allowed to have one on this forum!

Skyvan, patriotic are we. Anyway should you not be flying your 737, since you have a job?

At this stage, the only reason SAA has a chance to clinch the deal, is due to the clandestine, underhanded dealings going on around you. In other words, you are in agreement that SAA's ploy was to cause turmoil, be it underhanded and possibly illegal! Time well tell and the truth will come very shortly in the media, SAA is surely going to once again EAT DUST!

May I also put this to you skyvan-the 737 you fly is not owned by SAA, but has been sold to a South American carrier and leased back, I hope the cash from the sale is not part of your great profit this year, short lived!

Don't take anything personally, but I do think that there are many people out there that know a lot more of the wheelings and dealings than a single person!!!

Enjoy your flight.

Hi there jumbo Mouse and fellow Sun Air Drivers
I've been following the replies with some interest today - sure beats the local newspaper here! It is sad to see the dealings back there in SA and I guess it's reality hitting home again. What is really sad is to see it becoming a "mud-slinging" match between fellow aviators. Looking in from the outside may be easier, but I've been there - having to leave no fewer than 3 companies through no choice of mine. But looking back, whinging about it did not get me here onto an A340. One has to pick up the pieces and move on. It's no different anywhere else in the world. I feel for all those involved there, and I wish them all the best with their applications to Comair/BA. I was there on the 737 and thought highly of the company. I believe they will be around for a long time yet. Bear in mind the "little island" to the East is always taking on more FO's so post those CV's without delay. Hey, sky van, looks like you'll need to fly with your "flak-jacket" from now on?
jumbo Mouse, see you on Tues on the apron OK?
Au revoir................


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Jumbo mouse, I feel that a meeting in person with you would probably end in fisticuffs. As much as I feel for the pilots now out of work, Life goes on, if you don't like the way SAA does business, then get out of the airline business in SA. SAA will, by virtue of its size, position, and owners, have the upper hand in most situations, and is most likely to survive any protracted price war. Unfortunately, for you, in this case Sunair lost, and a lot of good people have been hurt. I hope they will all be on their feet again soon, even you.
To answer your last post,
a) I fly "my" 737 when rostered, not at your pleasure. Shouldn't you be updating and dispatching your CV?
b) If SAA used clandestine, underhanded dealing, I was not aware of it. I understood that the Competition Board were aware of the negotiations, and even approved of the deal. If SAA's ploy was to cause turmoil,(underhanded and possibly illegal) that would not be the actions of an internationally respected airline turnaround specialist.
c) If SAA don't own the 737's, so what, Sunair's 727's were leased from Safair. Most airlines don't own the A/C they operate. The only exception I am aware of is Nationwide.
d) Funny you should mention it being personal, I have tried to keep my posts as objective (for an employee of another airline) as possible. I'm sorry that my posts have triggered your vitirol switch, but I guess you have to vent the spleen somewhere. If you had wanted it to remain impersonal, you wouldn't have spent the time going through the seniority list to find out who I am. Maybe I should be flattered, or scared?
If you are connected to the ALPA-SA email list, you will see that SAA are providing Sunair pilots with rebated travel for job interviews. The last paragraph is quite illuminating, maybe you'd like me to post it here, or shall I forward it to your email?

Silverfox, welcome back, hope the holidays were good. Sure is bad news, but some take it personally. I'll leave the flakjacket at home, instructors have thick skins already!
Good comments, true advice. I guess the old adage of "always look forward" rings true.
Take care.

Isn't this a nice can of worms?

It seems to me that the negative energy from some of the ex-crew is being directed at the wrong people.Don't get me wrong I'm no fan Of SAA, but you would have to expect that they(The CEO, Skyvan, or any of the staff)have acted exactly as anyone with any business sense would have acted given the oportunity to clean out the opposition.
Whether it was fair, cruel, unfair, ugly or greedy is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the people running(sic) Sun Air; ie. Rethabile, and the General Manager and the operations staff should have seen the writing on the wall and should have acted in the interests of the company.
The fact that the imminent closure of the airline had been rumoured for some time should have been sufficient warning for management to step up to the plate and make the sort of decisions that were required.
Of course since we all knew just how incompetent those managers were leaves us and our inability to stand together with part of the blame.
Even more surprising are the attempts to now harness those incompetent managers into the fold of the staff attempt to resurrect the airline.
I say direct your energy at the people who were unable to keep a very good and viable company (I mean we only had 3 destinations and were carrying 60 000 passengers a month) profitable. I know some 8th graders who would have been able to achieve that, despite "price wars and unfair practices", but then they probably would not have been so intent on lining their own pockets or hiring their incompetent pals.