view from a B737 cockpit earlier today, turn left, don't go straight, building on the right where the vehicles are congregated.
http://s21.postimg.org/6end69zw7/image_Dan_Per.jpg

That puts the mistake into perspective.

Interesting photo. Bit short on taxiway signs, aren't they?

JNB was always a bit of a nightmare to taxi around. Lots of traps for the unwary or distracted!

SW Check what out? What source?

I fear you are yet another troll:ugh:

If one looks at the photo posted one will see that there are lights on the taxi line that take you around the corner. It may have been that the lights were off but it's not at all usual for them to be off at night time. I've taxied out there loads of times but I can't recall if taxiway M is light at night time. As far as I know M is only used by aircraft under tow.

I do know though that it is common to be behind the BA aircraft in Joburg while they are apparently waiting for the figures to be sent to the aircraft. This reason is given to the ATC by the BA crew when being asked if they are ready for take-off.


Perhaps BA crew could say if it's standard for the figures to be sent out to the aircraft while the aircraft is on the move or if SOPS/NOPS require this to be done before start? Surely if it is standard for the figures to be sent after start the airline must have some policy as to how the figures must be inserted into the FMS or accepted by the crew? If it is SOPS/NOPS airline management should surely shoulder some responsibility for this.

Indeed.

Now consider that one on a dark night.
All they need is to dogleg the narrow taxiway 20 yards to the left and all would be well, A few signs would help though.

This thread really is quite unblievable for the amount of unadulterated crap being spouted.

In no particular order we have people expressing sympathy with the crew but at the same time being castigated as if they had a lack of sympathy with the Korean crew of the recent SFO crash! While the cultural issues are well known the effectiveness of the conversion training has to be questioned when the P/UT fundamentally did not understand the autothrust system. The two pilots have to live with the awful knowledge that they killed many people in the crash. I cannot begin to understand the culture but I would not be human if I did not have sympathy with the crew of that one.

In the JNB incident the picture above dramatically illustrates to the pious and the mischievous how easily it can be to miss the turn towards 03L and that is in daylight! Many airfields are like black holes at night and with poor signing and lighting making an error is all too easy to make.

In recent years far more emphasis has been placed on both pilots looking out of the windows with minimal other tasks being dealt with once on the move but is inevitable that at times only one pilot will be looking out if only for a brief period.

The captain will no doubt pay dearly for something for which he carried the ultimate responsibility whether that be in demotion, dismissal or just having to live with the knowledge of being responsible for the accident.

I know from personal experience that the standards are high in BA as well as many other airlines but show me any long established international carrier which hasn't had incidents or accidents which shouldn't have occurred in a perfect world.

Just looking at that picture, if there were centerline lights going in both directions it was obviously a fcuk up just waiting to happen... Wait for the report but for me it appears to be a bad system rather than a bad crew.

Taxing down 'B' for runway 19 at Brisbane is a very similar situation. However, Brisbane is very well signed. Even so, there has been the occasional incident where a wide body has gone straight ahead instead of making the right turn. Night is much worse & you have to pay attention, even if you know the airport well. It obviously wouldn't take much at JNB to end up in the wrong place, like this crew did.

And, as for those who feel that the crew should have known that the building was too close - you either haven't had to taxy in a very confined area or have never taxied a jet airliner. When taxing in a confined space it always looks close - often too damn close! You just have to make sure you are on the line &, if other aircraft are nearby, make sure they are on their line as well. Then you just have to trust that the airport has done the right thing & painted the lines in the correct place & if you are being marshalled, that they know what they are doing. Even that can go wrong. I came within a metre of collecting a 747 wingtip one night in India when under the marshaller's guidance. It was only my instinct that led me to ignore his instructions & turn early.

You can't just get out & have a look & in this business, you often just have to trust that others have done their job correctly.

The photo of the junction paint a thousand words - this is one of those instances where in the dark, with the lack of sign posting and using just the aircraft lighting, the mistake is going to happen at some point. There are plenty of airports with awful layouts, marking and signs, and they exist in north west European capital airports too - how many major EU airports have no centreline lighting on the apron, so when it rains at night the lines disappear under the sheen of reflected orange sodium lights? Luton has only just got marshallers for god's sake, all parking having been achieved by picking a piece of terminal structure or ground equipment to aim at as the yellow line disappears under the nose and checking for obstructions yourself.

As for the industry being one that learns from its mistakes, I have yet to see any evidence of this oft cited remark after 20 years working in it. Fatigue? Language barriers? Alcohol in airports and on board? The weight of carry on baggage? Assumed weights for load sheets? Security issues? The frank reality is that the industry is run by accountants who only spend money on what will gain more money back. Safety issues can go swing - EASA has shown clearly on the FTL issue that it is more interested in commercial than safety issues, so even the regulators won't push the hard learned lessons to be adopted. Anyone who works in aviation knows that the industry never learns the lessons...

Taxied to 03L many times - in daylight! I can quite understand how this incident could occur - particularly at night.

Don't forget that this may have been a crew who have never visited JNB before (apart from training) and so may be quite unfamiliar with the nuances of this place.

Have I ever made errors in taxing? Yes but I have managed to taxy away with nothing more than a red face, admonishment from ATC and a tittering F/O.

Holes in cheese is what this is about - and the photo above gives an indication as to a large hole which the airport authority chose to ignore. It would be interesting to know if this was the first such occurrence of an aircraft 'continuing' along the taxiway to runway 03L for departure.. I'd bet my next salary it was not the first.

What an awful Christmas for all those involved.


Regards
Exeng

There have been many posts re this particular incident & likely to be many more. Let's all put our hand on our hearts & swear, `we have never been subject to the potential, for just this type of incident`. Certainly it would appear, that more & better signage & lighting (centre line etc), would have helped. We all learn from our own & others mistakes, none of us is God, so let's continue to be carefull out there.
Regards to all.

Cultures differ in different parts of the world. That is a given and to ignore it is to do a disservice to safety. I have no doubt that if the BA FO had spoke up about the taxi route or the proximity of that building, the captain would have stopped and confirmed their position. Sadly, in some other parts of the world, the FO wouldn't even dare speak up in such a situation.

As for the specifics, put the photo shown above in the context of an environment which is often darker than the inside of a cow and I can see exactly how this incident happened.

Exeng - not the first.

You assume it was the captain taxiing.

Would it be right to assume (I'm not a commercial pilot) that the FO would be the more likely of the two to spot the conflict, since he is physically on the right side ? Or is lookout generally delegated to one or the other, irrespective of side ?

The photo also shows -

Taxi edge lights vs. no edge lights.
Pavement width reduction by 2/3's.
Side markings vs. no markings.
Taxiway centerline lights at the turn.

Yep totally agree, we could all have made a similar error on a dark night. Sometimes :mad: happens, luckily no one died.

The RPLL intl apron area springs to my mind when I think of places where the local signs/apron lines are a error waiting to happen.

It may be the fault of the crew however the FAJS Airport have to accept responsibility as well.

Just one more question from a non-expert : is it known if those lights were actually switched ON at the time of this incident ? :confused:

Obviously a breakdown of SA inside the cockpit while the aircraft was moving.

I will be interested to find out whether the crew's pre-start briefing included the expected taxi route to the runway in use and whether they discussed any changes to what was previously expected and briefed, if any.

Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world, and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the jog to the left, the expectation to look for the red hold-short sign for the runway (as clearly seen in the picture) and the fact that there's a taxiway leading straight ahead you don't want to take. The whole purpose of briefing beforehand it is to figure out the traps before you begin taxiing and arrive there because there are cockpit chore and duty distractions in between. If you expect there to be no traps or have them all magically erased you're in the wrong business.

All the technology and niceties in the world aren't going to make a difference if the fundamentals aren't there, and SA is lost. Moving a/c displays aren't always accurate and all the hotspot notes on a plate aren't going to help if you don't know you're there in the first place.

Moaning about less-than-perfect airport lighting/facilities does nothing to prevent something like this from recurring. A thorough briefing of taxi route (expected and cleared-for), recognizing threats beforehand, and maintaining vigilance will and is the biggest tool in the shed to plug up what could be the first big hole in the cheese.

It's also incumbent upon us to do our professional best to not be guilty of a runway incursion, and without doing all of the above (even at the most nicely laid-out and lighted/signed) airport, you aren't. Both pilots knowing where they are on the ground and how we've been cleared is also the first red flag for us if we subsequently receive a bogus clearance from ATC that may put us or others at risk.