ethiopian
 

please,any information about ethiopian airlines?
I do appreciate it

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Ethiopian Thread
 

Kilehudson, the summary of the thread is: STAY AWAY, enough saight?

Thread is on P2 of Terms & Endearment , Title " ETHIOPIAN AIRLINES Pilot Jobs- WARNING ! ! " Best to read it.

Basically what it is saying is you will spend months on (contrived & unecessary) training & will not be paid for this period neither salary or perdiems.

thank you
 

thank you folks.:D

Ethiopian
 

Billy Currington sings a song where one of the lyrics goes "I don't want you, but I need you".

That is the basic concept for expats at Ethiopian. If you go there for an assessment, take a small voice recorder and record some of the comments that are made about you in the local lingo.....then have some one translate it. Then you can make up your own mind.

The classic...
 

... management wants you, local pilots don't.
It is not such a good gig, considering other contract jobs available.

On the comment, about what the panel might say about you during assessment, I 've heard the same complaint-suspicion from another captain who went there for the MD-11F gig.

It's not a unique attitude found only in Ethiopian Airlines. Expats aren't wanted in any African country for any reason. By African country I mean one that is controlled by Black skinned people. The only roll for 'expat' pilots is to fly in with C130's and drop off free food, after that, please leave.

You're right oompilot, just like Europe is desperately longing for black skinned pilots.:rolleyes: Please get your facts straight.
You will discover that NATIONALS are usually favored, whether that be in Africa, America, Europe, India, China, Panama, Brazil, or wherever. If experienced locals can't be found, then expats are called.
And that's not just in aviation.

Black Skinned People
 

What an ass

johnnyringo42 what's wrong with saying that? If you haven't seen any in your life you shouldn't have a medical. There are lots of black people in Africa. Yes they have a skin colour. Are you sensitive about something? Got a hang up?

oompilot i must say you must be one of those typical sheltered and narrow minded people who clearly does not see the big picture. Just as 737-NG has stated the choice of locals is a common theme across the world not just Africa. The colour of the skin has got nothing to do with local preferential whatsoever but clearly to you it does. Less of your type in the world can only be a plus. If your going to contribute useful information for those of us interested then do so but such BS bigoted post you can keep to yourself.

It's not a unique attitude found only in Ethiopian Airlines. Expats aren't wanted in any African country for any reason. By African country I mean one that is controlled by Black skinned people. The only roll for 'expat' pilots is to fly in with C130's and drop off free food, after that, please leave.


funny because most of the airlines in country are begging for "expats" to come and fly... that should tell you something.

MD7 you want to call black people "local" and white people "expats", well good for you. There is no difference. You are also grouping people into categories. Smoke and mirrors don't fool anybody.

On the accusation of bigotry, I see you live in Australia. Isn't that where the aboriginal people were hunted as sport creating the majority white population we have living there today? Glass houses!

Oompilot this has nothing to do with grouping people but with your comment specifically attacking "black skinned people". What happened in Australia in the past is irrelevant to this thread whatsoever. Clearly your the type to dwell on the past. I see you live in South Africa well enough said the way you treated "black skinned people" Pretty sure if it weren't for Mandela this would still go on. At least Australia has made a formal apology to the Aboriginals.

PCLCREW you are right about expats being wanted. Friend of mine just informed me the need for expats pilots at Ethiopian Airlines. I know they are desperately looking for Q400 and 737NG rated captains. That's all i know so far.

I referred to a group and used their skin colour as the common denominator. No malice attached regarding this what so ever. You however, oversensitive to colour, probably from your troubled history, decided to attack the comment.

By the way generalization is common place in the world. I would be interested if you are offended by all of them. Germans are precise, Japanese build computers, Americans are loud, French are stroppy, English are pompous, Italians are passionate, fair skinned people get sunburned, skinny people don't last long when lost in the dessert and fat people float well, the list goes on. Why then would someone react so badly to see a reference to a group by their skin colour? Maybe you feel black skin is something to be ashamed of. Shame on you.

Why is it that misplaced perceptions of political correctness spoil so many discussions. Some people are black, or dark brown, what is wrong with describing them as such? They would so the same! Some people are fat, but we have to say 'dimensionally challenged', but that could mean they are midgets as well as fat, so we can't win.

Dear me have we suddenly gone back to 1958 in here....??:ugh::ugh:

Description isn't the problem Capetonian, it's when malice is clearly intended as with Oompilot. making negative generalized statement about a group of people and then trying to hide behind an obvious fact as skin color.
The thread started on Ethiopian need for Expat pilots and it slid to the need of Expat pilots in Africa, at which point Oompilot felt the need to shed light on his bigoted skewed mentality of the continent, pointing out that by Africa he meant countries controlled by black skinned people, is he aware there are countries that are controlled by black skinned people that aren't African or are not even in this continent. U.S is under the leadership of a not so fair person.
The point he was actually trying to drive home was expats in this case ''foreign caucasian pilots'' aren't wanted in ''black Africa''. He forgets there are black expat pilots as well that is why he felt the need to include color in his description hence sliding the thread further to the irrelevant.
As someone wisely tried to educate him ''Nationals" always take priority be it in Black Africa, Arab Africa, Americas or White Europe and i'm not trying to be politically correct, the airline i fly for has people of Asian descent, Caucasian descent and obviously a majority are black descendants but they all have the common denominator, Nationals.
Obviously he does not get that, he is keen to portray Africa "the one controlled by black skinned people" as vile and their only need for expats i.e white pilots is when they are starving and need food aid, he fails to see the bigger picture, who is an expat? the need for them within the continent and beyond, and protectionism of local jobs by all governments including those not controlled by black skinned people.
That's why he is a BIGOT not because he called someone who is black, 'black'.

Gentleman-it appears that this thread has rapidly moved away from the original topic into nothing more than a slinging match based on difference of opinion. Having been fortunate enough in my career to date to have worked in many places around the world and predominantly in Africa, I can say that the latter it is an entirely unique place to work. There are a different set of rules here and in many cases there is unfortunately still a deep underlying sense of racism that exists from both sides. Having said that, there are still many “expat Pilots” flying throughout Africa for a variety of operators. The simple fact that they are there illustrates the need for some form of external assistance be it because of insufficient suitably qualified local pilots or ambitious growth plans that outstrip the training capabilities of the various operators. Whether the airlines that employ these contractors like it or not, they still need them for the foreseeable future and as a result there is always going to be some form of animosity that exists from the local pilots.

I found a comment from MD7 rather interesting in that he referred to Australians having “apologized” to the Aboriginals for past atrocities-does that make it ok then?.Australia is still in effect a colony but the subtle difference is that power has never been returned to the local Aboriginal community in the form of governance. After all they are the original inhabitants of that country. This has happened in Africa and in so many cases the country has been ruined by so called ‘Democratically elected presidents” who have done nothing but line their own pockets to the detriment of their own people and taken the country back 100 years not to mention changing the constitution so as to hold onto that power .Would you still be such a proud Australian if this was the case in your country?. I doubt a simple apology would suffice. In general Africa is still an awesome place to work/live and it is only the minority that gives it a bad name. For sure widespread corruption is endemic to the continent on a whole but where in the world these days is that not the case? .It’s just on this continent that there is invariably no accountability. Now for a return to the original thread. From what I understand Ethiopian Airlines is a very good airline to work for. There is an issue in that you do not get paid during the training period which can last for anything up to six weeks and this naturally puts many prospective pilots off. There is like so many things a reason for this. They have had numerous pilots attempting to pull the wool over their eyes by fudging their credentials or by simply not making the grade. The failure rate of candidates has been as high as 50% so their attitude is justifiably that you get paid once you have made the grade. Their standards are high and most of the disgruntled pilots that have posted threads have simply not made that grade or have not been willing to adhere to their SOP’s. It is a rapidly expanding Airline with one of the best commuting options in the business. Sure the money isn’t the best but if you work out that it is effectively for only 20 days work in the month then it’s a good deal.

Bottom line is that if you want to work in Africa then come with an open mind and be flexible enough to conform to what is asked of you.

Odericko, after wading through most of your drivel I realized you have not understood the reason for the inclusion of the skin colour in my original post. Being born in South Africa and therefore being a South African citizen I have been reminded several times by our local black population that despite being 3rd generation African I am in fact no African citizen of this continent. I however feel otherwise about this. The point I was thus trying to make is that on this continent there are black and white Africans. The black Africans openly display animosity and intolerance to the white Africans especially when concerned with jobs. To the educated it is then meaningful to know that this position is governed by black skinned Africans.
By the way I never said the black people where disliked, inferior or anything else. Just that the black group favored their own.
Regarding the food supply comment being inaccurate, can you name a case where a country from the African continent supplied free food drops to a European country.

Oompilot, those who live here, do know you are right. Those, who don't live here, will always call you a racist.

A national carrier has in the past employed several ethnic African foreigners, Zimbabweans, Ugandans, South Africans etc. and an Indian (by passport) guy too.

The Indian pilot did not at all meet the minimum qualifications, the company however employed him and paid for his training (ME CPL & IF), while paying him a salary too.
However, there are national pilots (citizens) available, who have a lot more experience and would only need the minimum trainig, e.g. type rating.
However, those pilots happen to be caucasian, despite their families being in the country for generations.

The fleetcaptain (ethnic African), who actually tried to stop the employment of the Indian national and rather wanted to employ one of the more experienced caucasian citizens got disciplined.

Since the strategy of employing non-caucasian pilots lead to a shortage due to excessive training times (type ratings failed several times by several non-caucasian pilots, probably due to the big step from C172 to a jet) the crew shortage had to be resolved by employing European (caucasian) contract pilots...

@Odericko

Couldn't have put it in a better way.

@ all apartheid nostalgics.

The fact that black south africans are now "getting back" at white south africans after all these years of apartheid and racism should not come into play when speaking about Africa as a whole, let alone Ethiopia.

Calling black people "locals" and whites "expats" isn't very smart.
What happens, for example like when our national airline (cameroon) went down, and some captains left for Asia, as well as other African countries. Are they not considered to be "expats" over there even though they are black?

It really baffles me to read comments of people complaining about being 3rd generation white Africans and being singled out by black counterparts.
Well my friends, do you have any idea what is to be black and trying to find a decent job in Europe, or even America, even when one has the right qualifications? And the main difference, is at least WE did not come into THEIR land, strip them of everything THEY had, and put them into some form of slavery. Had we done that, then maybe I could imagine why THEY would be mad at US!!
Now the system might not be right in S.A., but please, stop complaining for a situation that was instaured because of your grandparents behavior, and if things are too harsh, then just move to another country. After all, isn't that the life of a pilot? And I'll repeat myself, there are some pilots in worse conditions than you are, on other continents.

Last but not least, I will reiterate what I said in my earlier post. Airlines, apart from the ones specialized in expat recruitment like EK, EY, and such, always favor recruiting "locals". In Brazil, yo have to be a national and speak Portuguese. In Europe, you have to hold a EU passport, but often, like in France, Germany, Switzerland, etc, they will also require you to speak the national language fluently on top of your ICAO level 4 english.
I need not to speak of the US, Canada, or Australia. Isn't that some form of protectionism?
What you should also know is that if "locals" often do not like "expats", it is simply because they often get much better working conditions.
Simple example, when they recruited pilots for the new cameroonian national airlines, they gave some awesome packages for the european (all white) pilots. 7000€/month for FOs and 10000€ for CAPT plus free housing at a 4 star HOTEL. The local pilots were getting paid...900€ and that's all. Yes, that's right. Even the expat cabin crew were making some 3000€ monthly. It was getting so pathetic they got kicked out.
Now Ethiopian might only be paying $6500 or so to say, but remember the locals there do not exceed $2000. Life is less expensive there than in any western country as long as you "keep it cool" so make an educated choice.

Happy Holidays to you all.

737-NG your posting regarding Africans in Europe and elsewhere in the world getting jobs, is incorrect, consider this. Many of these countries have introduced affirmative action or similar programs to protect these minority groups. In Africa, including South Africa these programs are enforced to protect a majority group, this group being the local black population, thus sidelining the minority! So your analogy is not similar at all.

Secondly your point regarding other parts of the world hiring pilots on criteria such as language or passport is interesting. I did notice that none related to skin colour, only to nationality and practicality. In Africa this doesn't hold true.

One last point, I have never in my years heard another black country refer to the foreign blacks as expats. Never have I heard that all the Zimbabweans working in South Africa are expats or the Nigerian's living in Ponte in JHB, are expats. The term has been exclusively used for describing white people.
It's another example of black African's not wanting to include new non blacks into their countries, the point of my original post.

Straight honest facts are clearly not appreciated regarding this topic. Enough of your smoke and mirrors talk on this one, Cheers!

Rumour tells of the time back in around 1988/1990 when Air Botswana employed a batch of Tanzanian F27 captains as expatriates in order to lance the boil of political correctness. The whisper further has it tell that these guys were of rather limited ability, having been brought in to provide the appropriate smiley face in the cockpit rather than to bring any gifts of skill and aviation ability into the company. That was shortly before Captain XYZ, who was I think a local rather than a white guy who'd lived in Africa for three generations, nicked an ATR, flew it around Gabs for a lap or two while dementedly threatening death and destruction to the president and then, on landing,crunched the machine into the remaining neatly parked AB fleet thereby depriving the country of its entire airline capability at one fell swoop. Sic transit gloria mundi?

Oh dear! oompilot you expose so much ignorance whenever you post here.
first and foremost there are black expatriates, Kenya Airways used to have a 737-200 fleet that was exclusively expats, and guess what, half of them were black, some from Zambia, Uganda, Rwanda etc when the fleet was retired they were absorbed into the 73NG. fleet, and yes people are recruited on the basis of their Nationality or passport if you like, the 777 fleet manager isn't native African actually he is of Asian descent but he is a National, the 767 fleet manager is of Arabic descent but he is a national, the 737 fleet manager is actually Caucasian but he is a National, the chief pilot is native African but overriding factor is that he is a National, please get your facts before you post.
As 737NG pointed out some people here are indeed arpatheid nostalgics, they believe if an expatriate isn't white then they are recruited for other reasons other than their flying abilities, you can clearly get that from carvotingcheetahs post and another one who earlier claimed that non white pilots have to retake their ratings exams severally before they actually qualify. If a white pilot doesn't make the cut then obviously it is racially instigated, what a load of BS.
Having schooled in South Africa i know first hand what to be discriminated against is, interestingly it was easier to get along with the white South Africans than the Black South Africans, but even they(whites) had a disdain for the non whites and many a times we had to put up with verbal abuse in the cockpit from the instructors, and it pained most not all, that at that point in time the 20 or so group of black students was the best performing, immediately after we were in Europe for ground school and Sim training and it was much more pleasant than Good old Eastern cape.
oompilot you should understand that the affirmative action in south Africa protects the so called majority since they were opressed for a very long time by your Apartheid regime denying them even the most basic fundamentals to humanity, so the argument is you had decades of head start in terms of Education and economic well being, they are only getting started, obviously with the kind of ignorance you display you will not get it.:ugh:

I've heard that argument propounded in support of radical Islam. You know the sort of drivel. Mohammed was born six hundred years after Jesus Christ so therefore Muslims have six hundred years of catching up to do. Surely an expatriate pilot is only one who usually works on contract for a country other than his own, often on rates more appropriate to his own country's pay scales than those applying in his host country. In a vague attempt attempt to return to the thread, one can hardly blame Ethiopians if they have a certain antipathy toward white pilots when you consider the death and destruction spread amongst them by Italian pilots at Adowa and later, with mustard gas, at Dolo in 1936. HIM Ras Tafari, who is much abused in Jamaica, put the points across rather well in his speech to the League of Nations. I suggest that perhaps the most important point for discussion when considering expatriate pilots should be the standards set for licence issue by their own civil aviation authorities and that topic does not fall within the boundaries of this thread?

@carvotingcheetah, so from your own statement you admit that an expat is someone sought out for his skills outside his home country and not his skin color.

The reason a majority of expats are Caucasian is because they provide the largest pool of professionals within the industry, so naturally they will form the biggest number of expats, that's why the ignorant ones think the word expat is synonymous to being white.:rolleyes:

To perhaps drift back (slightly closer) to the original thread title, has anyone recently contacted one of the agencies doing the recruiting & asked directly "will I be paid during training/what is the maximum anticipated length of aforesaid training" ?

If they have,I would be tickled to know the answer.

The Great Escape.
 

The answer is 'no , we will not pay until final line check ' , apparently they have retired line trainers jumpseating . Anyway , the good news is that they must have got the 73 numbers they need , they have not advertised that particular job for a few weeks now . The medical continues to be a thing of mystery , blood tests being one of them - off the clock one day , normal the next . Happiness is V1 ...........

Yeah, I noticed that 767/MD11 was still there, but the 737 had gone quiet on SOME agencies, BUT one of them is still advertising the 737 jobs.
How DO they get guys to work for Nada for months ( I was told you now need to be line-checked to EVERY destination FFS := that certainly extends the "training/unpaid" period :hmm:)
What a bunch of :mad:, & all this cr@p to then be paid ¢6500 as a Capt at the end of it :ugh:

A slight digression, if I may please, in response to a previous question. I should have thought that, by definition, an expatriate can come from any country and thus, axiomatically, may be of any ridiculous color or shape. However, it seems to me that it would be perfectly possible to describe an expatriate pilot thus.
A pilot who cannot find satisfactory employment within his own country for one reason or another, including his inability to meet the standards set as the norm within the aviation industry in that country who then finds employment in another country, often one where the culture is alien to his own, where the standards of aviation development, safety and skill either may be or usually are at a significantly lower level than prevail in the country from which the pilot is seeking to becoming an ex patriate. That's just a theoretical explanation based upon empirical evidence as might be provided by Mr Spock, commissioned rank officer in Star Fleet Command, I believe. Last year, just, Ethiopian appointed its first female Captain, Amsale Gualu so one presumes that, perhaps under certain conditions, females might also be considered for various positions.

Outch.... that hurts. To become an Ex Patriate is mostly driven by a force beyond the controll of the individual. Mostly unemployment, rarely incapability. Fakers is another topic, I agree.

Insteresting definition by cavortingcheetah. So all these FR or sometimes AC guys going massively to EK have an "inability to meet the standards set as the norm within the aviation industry in that country" yet they go to a place "where the standards of aviation development, safety and skill either may be or usually are at a significantly lower level than prevail in the country from which the pilot is seeking to becoming an ex patriate."
Expat doesn't necessarily means unemployed or unable to find a job in one's own country, as those guys prove to us by jumping ships to go to a better paid job, and better T&C's even though they were perfectly qualified and were flying for rather large airlines in their home countries. But they now fly for a reputed airline which I believe is not so easy to get into, and has standards just as high or even higher than their preceeding ones.There are dozens of reasons why one would become an expat, let's not reduce them down to two or three phrases.

Now for oompilot, I'd like a list of those european countries using "affirmative action" as I live on the old continent and would really be interested in moving there! The only place I know where that method is being used outside SA is the US. But having lived there for 3 years, pilots don't fall under that law, at least not directly.

Now, to get back to the thread, the Ethiopian gig is definately not the best in the century, at least not for a westerner, but could be great for an African expat working for a company only paying him let's say half of that. Just an example.

I do concur , if you are comfortable where you are and 6800USD is peanuts for you please stay where you are, the job isn't forced on anyone. Besides the gig might be good for the expats flying for the less stable companies in West Africa, ET is a very stable company and i believe they pay their pilots regularly and on time, life in Addis is significantly cheaper than most countries even in Africa.

I’m not going to get involved in the rights and wrongs of this ‘debate’ but may I remind you all that in 1993/4 ( and whilst I was working at Ethiopian Airlines) the airline was purged of some of their best personnel when any individual of Eritrean ancestry was kicked out. Many excellent people were basically shafted.

I wonder if they now allow Eritrean ‘expats’?

doubt it, Eritrea and Ethiopia's relations are as bad if not worse than South and North Korea

As for point by cavortingcheetah, I would say that only a very small minority of expats lack in competence and aptitude. But, if you are "bottom feeder" airline with smallest salary and otherwise worst terms and conditions, you will get pretty much all of the not-even-upto-your-standard expats to your doorstep. Hence for example Turkish will be screening many more bad apples than emirates.

I've never before heard that expat is skin colour thing. According to the grapevine KQ union doesn't like the idea of expats even if they would be from Tanzania and Uganda.. Likewise I haven't heard Kenyans on any colour having any easier time in ET assessment than Caucasian or Indian applicants.

Regular readers will perhaps be aware that when it comes to certain posts Lot's wife is often abused for recreational purposes.