Frogman1484 your quote
I dont know if you have been to the other African countries, I have, many of them on contract. SA has a major crime problem, however I dont think you can equate SA to any other African countries, thats almost like equating Aus to Tonga or Indonesia, just to illustrate, some facts about SA you may not be aware of (its not a pissing contest, just to illustrate that SA is a little more advanced than you seem to think)

A comparison of Countries by GDP and real Growth rate

Australia GDP640.1 billion Growth rate 2.5%
South Africa GDP533.2 billion Growth rate 4.9%
New Zealand GDP101.8 billion Growth rate 2.2%

South Africa had nuclear weapons in the 60's (developed with its ally Israel) not just the bomb but intercontinental ballistic missiles, it designed and manufactured the Rooivalk attack helicopter, its the world leader in pebble bed nuclear reactor technology, South Africa had a space programme aimed at launching low earth orbit Satelights (this was given up at the request of the US)

Some South African Inventions

CAT scan
The computed axial tomography scan, or CAT scan, was developed at Tufts University in the UK by South African physicist Allan Cormack and Godfrey Hounsfield of EMI Laboratories. Their achievement secured them the 1979 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine.

Oil from coal
Sasol is the world's first - and largest - oil-from-coal refinery. It is situated in Sasolburg in South Africa and provides 40% of the country's fuel.

Heart transplant
The world's first heart transplant was performed by Dr Chris Barnard in Cape Town on 3 December 1967.

Speed gun
The South African-made speed gun, developed by Somerset West inventor Henri Johnson, was formally launched at The Oval in England during the 1999 Cricket World Cup.

Kreepy Krauly
The swimming pool vacuum cleaner was invented by Ferdinand Chauvier, a hydraulics engineer who came to South Africa from the Belgian Congo in 1951.

APS therapy
Gervan Lubbe was flicking through an American medical journal one day when he stumbled across an article about pain relief. After reading all he could on the topic, he wondered whether it would be possible to electronically stimulate the body's natural nerve impulses to relieve pain.

Pratley Putty
Pratley's famous glue is the only South African invention that has been to the moon. In 1969 the putty was used to hold bits of the Apollo XI mission's Eagle landing craft together.

Dolosse
Dolosse are large, unusually shaped concrete blocks weighing up to 20 tons. The structures are designed to break up wave action and protect harbour walls and coastal installations.
Designed by Eric Merrifield and first installed in East London harbour, they are now used all over the world.


The world's biggest hospital is in South Africa and is known as the Chris Hani -Baragwanath Hospital in Soweto, Johannesburg.

South Africa is one of only 12 countries where tap water is safe to drink. Its tap water is rated the third best worldwide.

Durban is the largest port in Africa and the ninth largest in the world.

South Africa is the first country in the World to have voluntarily abandoned its nuclear weapons capability.


South Africa is a middle income country with a strong emerging economy -the 25th largest in the world -and produces more goods than Portugal, Russia or Singapore. It also has Africa's biggest economy, three times larger than Nigeria or Egypt.


South Africa has the largest reserves of gold (35%), manganese (80%), chromium (68%), platinum-group metals (56%), vanadium (45%), and alumino-silicates (37%). South Africa also mines deeper than any other country in the world, up to depths of 2.5 miles at the Western Deep Levels Mine.

South Africa has the lowest cost of electricity in the world and the lowest cost of living compared to the worid's major cities.


South Africa has the largest hydro-electric tunnel system in the world at the Orange Fish Rivers Tunnel.

South Africa is the most advanced and productive economy in Africa, with a GDP nearly three times that of Egypt, its nearest competitor on the continent.


South Africa is the worlds major manufacturer of stainless steel tank containers for the international trade

South Africa is a major supplier of high- tech platinum catalytic convectors for motor vehicle exhausts to foreign automotive assemblers.

South African civil engineers have built dams and roads and blasted tunnels in South America as well as Africa

South African railway rolling stock has been exported to the Far East

South African electronic control and guidance systems for both civil and military applications are purchased by a number of foreign buyers

South Africa's textile industry has already established itself in world markets with a track record of quality and consistency. The industry is the number one global supplier of nylon sewing thread; supplies 20% of the worlds parachute fabrics and is an acknowledged global supplier of fabrics.

South Africa's stock exchange ranks among the 10 largest in the world

South Africa was identified by the US Department of commerce as one of the worlds top ten Big Emerging Markets (BEM's). With this designation the department of commerce has recognised the enormous potential that exists in South Africa for US business. It is expected that by the year 2010 the BEM market share will be larger than that of the EU and Japan combined. Clearly the BEM markets are the commercial investments of the future.

South Africa accounts for approximately 75% of the GDP for the Southern African region and for 45% of the GDP for the entire African continent.

Templeton Investment Management in January 2000 picked South Africa as its top emerging market




Just an illustration to show remoke that SA is not the african hell hole he may be expecting after reading some of your posts, as I said not a pissing contest, I firmly believe that crime is South Africa's major hurdle, if it can be reduced to normal proportions then the country will thrive if not it will slowly bleed to death.

fluffy, as I said in another thread on South Africa....where else can't you stop and chat with a stranger.....not live in trepidation behind 10' high walls with razor wire......drive with windows up and doors locked.....not see kids playing or even walking in the streets......have dogs as pets not as guardians....so, clean this up fluffy and then you and I will have a beer on a sidewalk cafe in the centre of Johannesburg, and we'll discuss the good things of South Africa, because fluffy, it all depends on you rousing your countrymen out of their lethargy (black and white ). For all this I wish you well.

Fluffy may we call you " The Spindoctor" from now on?

:hmm:
Not too long ago, Johannesburg was an excellent city in which to work. Commuting into the city centre was safe and easy and even for a woman, walking from office to car was an excercise of no particular problem or danger. This is a very far cry from the case today. In those not to far distant days even Hillbrow was viewed with little more than a wry grimace at the more Bohemian aspect of that high rise suburb.
When the great change in South African racial politics took place, the new master race acquired a vibrant city with which legacy they have achieved nothing of distinction. The general view may well be that such lack of achievement extends to the whole country, thereby accounting for the degree of negativism encountered on another Pprune thread.
But Johannesburg has suburbs of course and some of these are very nice places in which to live. Lanseria and Grand Central airports are to the north of the city, ORTIA to the east and Rand to the south. It can be quite congenial to live in the northern suburbs and commute to any one of the first three airfields. Commuting in rush hour is an absolute nightmare, not only because of the density of traffic but also because of the completely haphazard driving techniques of the majority of motorists, most of whom, white and black, have bought their licences, (or so it is rumoured).
So the answer to the original question is perhaps that Johannesburg is a ghastly place in which even to attempt to exist but that its suburbs can provide some of the most pleasant accomodation of any major industrial/business city in the world and with good enough amenities as well.
Of course there are more congenial places in South Africa in which to live but in general, and rather more particularily in aviation; in South Africa, Josies is where the work is.
As to guns, well, one may have several, but since the bandits are invariably armed with something a little more substantial than anything for which a member of the public can obtain a licence, there is no point in carrying one. You will be outgunned on the street corner and if held up and found to be in possession of a weapon; you will be shot, (or so it is rumoured.) Mind you, you probably will be anyway but perhaps not with quite such deliberation. In the home, a handgun safely tucked away somewhere is a nice adjunct to domestic safety but then so it is in England, particularily in rural areas, and most people probably have the equivalent of a baseball bat at least, tucked away under the marital mattress?:hmm:

I.R.PIRATE you can call me anything you want, listen I am playing devils avocate here, its just a good debate, I hate the crime but I will let you in on my situation and you tell me if its a dilema or not.

kaiser bill and cavortingcheetah, I am as scared of the crime as anyone else in this country, I live in golf estate, surrounded by 10m high walls with an electric fence on top, 24 hour patrolling armed security company doing the rounds, the estate I live in is quite large about the size of a medium suburb, my house has a 2m wall with infra-red beams in the garden, 2 large dogs, in the house every room is monitored with passive infra-red, should someone get through all of this, he will not get to me or my family withought setting off the alarm, if that happens I will be at the top of the stairs in my underpants with a 9mm, obvious to the fact that it could be the maid, wife or child who has set the alarm off by mistake, I was an active member of a combat shooting club some time ago, I am aware of the dangers of a firearm but feel I have enough training and awareness to make the firearm a useful tool in my case.

That said and yes it does paint a pretty grim picture but here is the other side, we have had one case of petty crime in the estate in the last 5 years, a cell phone was stolen, the culprits were caught and prosecuted, my kids can ride there bikes walk and play with freedom in the estate, we can walk within the boundy of the estate with no fear of attack. On a recent trip to Perth we went on a river tour up the swan river, the boat guide enthusiastically pointed out the "millionair's houses" which to be honest would look pretty ordinary to most middle to upper class South Africans, I would not say I live in a mansion but compared to Aussie standards I suppose I do, we have a full time maid and gardener who do everything, I do not however drive a nice car, I cant afford it and in my mind it makes me less of a hijack risk (what self respecting criminal would want that piece of :mad: anyway).

I have a good job flying the latest equipment with decent pay.
I am not the average South African, most people dont live like this, many in my position do, if you want saftey and peace of mind you have to pay for it unfortunatley. Now do I give this all up and go live in NZ where there is terrible weather, the country according to people who have been and lived there is 30 years behind SA, mainly existing on farming and tourism, where the women are rough because they do all the domestic work, herd the cattle, sheep etc, or Aus the Police state where you can walk the streets at your leisure but dont even think of painting your own house or trying to change the oil in your car hecause the cops will come and get you after the neighbour calls them, both places are notoriously hard to make a living in and maybe I could aspire to be a taxi driver in one of these places, I would have a tough time finding an aviation job, maybe the UK which I could go to tomorrow and get a job, live in a shoe box and hope I never have to make use of the NHS which I have had first hand experience of and all I can say is its dismal compared to the SA private hospitals, the schools also shocking unless you find children calling the teacher by his first name and running amock acceptable. Hong Kong I will never be at home and the pay is not that good. Emirates, not a chance I dont want my wife and kids being second class citizens in an arab country surrounded by desert and cant go out because its too hot. Maybe Canada, would not mind a bush flying job flying float planes, but also very cold and totally different to my current way of life.

I think I will stick it out here in SA for a while and take a look see approach, noises are being made about the crime, the government has finally accepted there is a problem I just hope they can fix it somehow. I know most South Africans dont live this "balmoral existance" and are suffering, I hold nothing against anyone who has left SA to better themselves and make a better life, but I personally would probably never find a better standard of living in any other country other than the one I live in now, we go to restraunts, parks, pubs all the stuff people do in Aus or NZ, only difference is that these places have 24hr armed response and high walls.

:hmm:

Bring back the pass laws!!!:D

Having said that and following on from happy events of this last weekend, a definite move to return once life permits, probably within the next three years, is on the cards. One suspects that it would be Capetown rather than Johannesburg that were to be the honoured recipient city of such an august occasion. But that however is not so much due to any crime statistics as to its proximity to the sea and mediterranean life style.

The reality of course is that if this 2010 thing is a success, South Africa will never look back. On the other hand, look to emigrate to Zimbabwe if it is a failure. :ooh:

I agree, 2010 will show the way, hopefully Bob will die some time soon as well and 4 million Zimbos will go home, talking to some of them thats what they want to do, although I doubt that his passing will have any effect whatsoever on the state of that country, its too far gone.

More and more interesting.

I suppose my observation would be, that all the luxury in the world is somewhat pointless if you have to live in a virtual fortress to enjoy it.

I must also say that this:-

- apart from being complete bollocks, is the reason that so many South African immigrants are universally hated when they move over here, and to Oz and the UK. That innate sense of superiority over the rest of the world, and the arrogance that leads them to say so at every opportunity, makes them pariahs. Worse than the bloody Poms.

For what it's worth, I could post a similar list of all the achievements of New Zealanders, from splitting the atom to inventing the jet boat, but who cares? it is pretty obvious to me that whilst South Africa was ruled by the white minority, it was a modern, industrially progressive country, with many excellent virtues (if you exclude apartheid). Since white rule ended, there has been a steady decline into anarchy.

New Zealand 30 years behind SA? You are living on a completely different planet if you think that. And even if it were true, the ability to live in near total safety - no razor wire, dogs, or weapons, no fear of hijack, being able to drive whatever I damn well please and not be scared of losing it - would be worth the 30 year gap.

I think it would be quite fun to come over there on a contract, relatively low-risk and some different flying. But I wouldn't even consider bringing the family, they enjoy their freedom to much to enjoy the constraints of having to live in a fortress to be safe. It might rain occasionally here, but the kids can roam the neighbourhood without fear.

It is laudable to be proud of your country - whatever it's state may be - but it is inexcusable to run down other countries in such a cavalier fashion, particularly if you have never been there.

Hey Fluffy,

Thanks for pointing out the achievements for what Sa has done or is doing. What you also have to mention is that South Africa, if you like it or not is slowly going down the same path that the rest of africa has gone down.

Life is cheap in that part of the world...Sipho will not think twice before shooting you for you new BMW. The Government is corrupt, where els can you find a Deputy Prime minister that has pulled off the stuff Zuma did. The whilte male is getting pushed on the margins of society just because he is white.

Go to any place in Africa, which most of us guys have flown there, and you will see first hand that the middle class are also all living behind 10ft walls and their garden furniture chained to the washing line.

Mate, in Sa like in the rest of Africa they will steal the milk out of your coffee if you turn the wrong way.

Fluffy I hope you are saving enough money to buy your children a house in the same Golf development, because I know that outside of those 10ft walls and electric fences it is a jungle as the average person living in the normal burbs are ****ting them selves every time they pull up to there driveways.

Just ask yourself where are my children going to live one day, will they be able to afford a safe compound (sorry I meant estate).

Bravo:D not nice is it, maybe you have some understanding of the frustration I feel reading some of these posts, and in the other threads.

No remoak I have not been to NZ, I have to rely on what other people have told me, it may all be a load of bollocks or it may have some truth in it, I guess I will just have to make my own descision when I visit there (as a tourist that is not a universally hated South African immigrant:) )

But your original thread was about what is Johannesburg like to live and work in, I have attempted to give you a honest answer, the usual negativity crept into this one and you were being sold a load of "bollocks" about what its like here, just incase you thought you were coming to a quait little African State with people killing eachother in the streets. It was however interesting to note the GDP and % growth figures and the fact that SA's economy is 4 times the size of NZ's, so you do the maths, come over here and when you are finished you can report your findings on this forum.

Frogman1484
You may be interested to know that in the early 90's when Nelson Mandela was inaugurated President in 1994, SA was insolvent ,today the Government's deficit is negligible - one of only a handful of countries in this position. We've had single digit inflation since 1993 - following 20 years of double-digit inflation.........

Fluffy, do you really live in such paranoid disgusting conditions ...high walls,razor wire infra red beams, etc,etc ? Housemaid, gardener, lucky you......the things you say of Aus and NZ are completely and utterly erroneous as you should well know if you consider yourself educated, and fluffy, the reason South Africans are so disliked is because of people like you being so ignorant, and when Zuma and his cohorts become your beloved leader South Africa will become another Zimbabwe, so keep your nose clean else the countries you run down may not think you're a fit and proper person.:sad:

I have just read flame lily's post.......fluffy,you still think you live in a paradise ? yeah right. Get out while you can , but go somewhere where they may appreciate you.....please.

SA achievements
 

FF - I was very interested in your list of SA first/biggests etc - where did you get this information?
I ask because (again) I challenge this notion that there are only 12 countires in the world where the tap water is safe to drink. I am sure the well travelled pruners could name many more than 12 - even in my limited travels I think I could. Besides which, town water is only as good as the local purifying plant; admittedly these are subject to national standards.
You could add to your list the Western Deep Level mine is still the deepest in the world; the Eastern transvaal dry cooled power stations were/are the biggest in service and I was once told that the Sishen-Saldanha ore trains are the heaviest in the world but I now suspect there are even heavier coal trains here in Oz.
I have noticed over the years that Ozzies & Saffers continuously make claims to the biggest/best in the southern hemisphere (ignoring South America of course, where they build those airliners...) whereas as the Zimmies & Kiwis don't stuff around - they claim to be the biggest/best in the world (as in NZ butter, Zim white water rafting etc etc)
A sort of a kid brother syndrome?? As you say, a pissing contest - nice phrase.

Flame Liliy FX,
Just as well that article was headed SOUTH AFRICAN BULLETIN, otherwise it could have been taken to have come out of any number of ex colonial African countries.
I find it so suprising that many of the financiers of a lot of these so called freedom fighters have not come out of the woodwork and said how proud they are of the results of their generosity. Especially when one is reliably informed that at least one Council of Churches supplied the ANC with considerable funding.

Fluffy

Hmmm... I actually don't need to come over there for that...

Population - South Africa: 44M New Zealand: 4M
Land area - South Africa: 471,000 square miles New Zealand: 103,500 square miles

Well that certainly explains the difference in the sizes of the two economies...

But let's look at some more interesting figures:

Life Expectancy - SA: 42.7 NZ: 78.8
Infant Mortality - SA: 60.7/1000 NZ: 5.8/1000
Literacy rate - SA: 86% NZ: 99%
GDP per capita - SA: US$12,100 NZ: US$24,200
Unemployment - SA: 25.2% NZ: 4%

(http://www.infoplease.com)

So I did the maths, and, guess what, it appears that in every meaningful way, NZ is a better place to live than SA.

I don't say that just to engage in a pissing contest, but merely to show that the size of the economy is irrelevant when comparing countries.

Also, it isn't all South African immigrants that are universally hated, just the arrogant ones that refuse to integrate into NZ society. We are more than happy to see them go home. Others fit in and become valued members of NZ society. Well, some of them get a bit rowdy when the All Blacks hammer them at rugby and the Black Caps cream then in the cricket... :}:}

I'd still like to come over there, but I won't be spending my time telling everyone how much better NZ is... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Inflation in single digits...yes but the single digit is still twice the rest of the world...

So have you thought what the future offers your kids? Can they become a policeman, nurse if they so wished or are they the wrong color. Will they be able to live in a nice estate with 10 ft walls....ummm think about that.

Being following this closely now and actually wondering why Remoak has started this thread. Are you actually interested in working in SA at all. You knock the place and at the same time want to work here - gain more experience? You say SA has higher unemployment - do they really need you? You are not as special or desired in SA as you may think as there are many young pilots with decent experience who are begging for that job you casually consider ' YOURS'.
Another misconstrued concept is that South Africa is going like it's northern Neighbour down the tube - clearly disgruntled ex-Zim's or Safers who's only reality with SA is to dig up some negative threads that they have surfed from their offshore home. SA is NOT ZIM!
FF seems to be the only real Safer on this thread who actually lives in SA and therefore has fair comment. :ok:
Flame-lily ex your post at 21h07 is a bit confusing - are you now claiming to be ex-Zim? You spend a lot of time on this - get a life man, you have indicated you want nothing to do with SA, you have moved out of Southern Africa - get a grip and move on!
By the way we can go on about every RH merc 'C' class since 2001, VW, BMW, Hummer 3 RHD(in production) built for export - and then there is the SA built and designed arms in service outside of SA - SA going like ZIM - yea riiiiight!

:hmm:

There are two threads running on the subject of South Africa at the moment. It would be convenient if they were merged into one because, obviously enough, much of one thread merges into the other. This is of course a well nigh impossible task for the honourable censors and editors to accomplish and they have wisely refrained from attempting it.
Let's try a slightly different tack here for a moment. One which is put forward without wishing in any way to engage in racial or tribal discussions. If one were to propound the theory that South Africa is by far the most congenial country in sub Saharan Africa for a white man to live and prosper today, and that its potential for stability and future growth is greater than that of any other black African country; would that cause raucous argument?
One awaits developments! :ooh:
Other sub Saharan countries that have a certain appeal in this regard would perhaps be Botswana, Namibia and perhaps Uganda. (No Private Eye innuendo is intended.) But none of these countries offer the same geographic diversification, amenities, communications, infra structure and potential for growth as does South Africa.:D
Australia and New Zealand are fine places, although on a personal basis one happens to greatly prefer New Zealand. But comparision of either of these Pacific countries with South Africa is really quite inappropriate is it not?
South Africa is possessed of an advantage that is unquantifiable yet quite tangible. It is Africa!:D

I reckon we should shut this thread as nobody is going to agree I say it is going down the hill , you say it is not...well thats fine with me. I have chosen to move on and give my kids what I consider a normal upbringing, you think that the future for them in SA is good enough, fair enough...now let talk about flying!!!:ok: :ok: :ok:

:hmm:

Right Ho Then!

What about long term opportunities for white aviators in South Africa?:p
Discuss!:ugh: