Buying Experience
 

I have recently flown with a new copilot who, is a great guy. Note I am not slagging him off here, merely using him as an example. He joined aviation a bit late and decided to make use of a “service” provided to people like him who need to or want to fast track their career. The “service” provider in this case preys on new pilots in the industry offering them a huge amount of time on “big” aircraft, a jumpstart to their career and a world of experience. While all of this sounds attractive to any budding pilot, the price tag attached to this “favor” is exorbitant and only those with a large financial backing would be eligible. While a new pilot with the means may see this as a great idea, how may of them realize what a ride they are being taken for? This particular copilot is not the first one who I have flown with who has 200 hrs on a Metro, he is however on a standard that is below PPL, the other one may have, only just, been on the standard of a recently tested night rating student. What concerns me about it is that nothing seems to be in place to protect these guys from PAYING for hrs on an a/c that is being paid for by a client anyway, they are getting sent into the industry thinking they are better than the rest because they jumped the queue a bit yet show no evidence of descent and proper training or ability? Where is CAA in this? They are aware of the trend and don’t stop it? How can they accept ratings signed out by examiners that they know are not performing the training to a safe standard? I do not stand alone in my assessment of this particular copilot in that he is below PPL standard yet the J.O.’s of this world continue to make a killing churning out substandard crew, offering them the world and then sending them into it without the tools to perform the job. Any thoughts on this topic? Fly safe all

Dog

I have come across this as well. You find a "200 hour wonder" that has found his way into the right hand seat of something to "gain experience" and then, at 250 hours total time I find a guy with 200 hours on a Cessna 150 and 172RG and 50 hours on a King Air 200 and then he can't undertsand why I won't offer him a position on a Hawker 800XP or Citation XLS. So you make a very valid point. I flew recently with a guy that I failed to undertand how he had a PPL never mind anything else. As if that was not enough, I aksed him one of my standard questions to youngsters.....do you know that he was not even able to tell me the diffrerence between a 727-100 and a 727-200? I was too scared to ask him if he knew what Concorde was? That's the problem, there are guytys flying around that are just flying becasue it's "cool" and have they no passion. Flying is a passion.

I have to agree with this as it is largely very disturbing to hear. I would like to see some suggestions as to what we can do about it, it needs to stop.

Pay as you go
 

Reminds me of the 'J.O. specials' at the now defunct Charlan Air. These boys were paying thousands of drinking coupons to J.O. for a couple hundred hours on the EMB 120's. Sounded like a great idea for the cash strapped airline. The only snag was when all 3 captains decided to resign in the same time period, the airline had no crew to upgrade to P1. They then got some South American guys in on contract at the same price of a small European countries GDP and went bang... This obviously wasn't the main reason they went down the tubes, but I'm sure it was one of them.

Lets hope other carriers see this pitfall and take heed. I for one want the guy/gal sitting to my right to be there because he/she earned it, not because of their dad's cheque book.

dog to dog
 

Well put TD, if you pay that amount of cash, you would expect to come out of it a better pilot?

More than likely the following comment is going to draw some flak:

The student who is already looking at purchasing a GPS before completing a PPL is the one about whom I'd be concerned. To me it merely demonstrates lack of conviction and unwillingness to practice the basics, leading to the short cut attitude which makes use of the service offered. Can't blame it all on the operator, folks....



Staaldak, geweer, ratpacks and into the bunker....:uhoh:

What they dont realise is the RAW experiance thay dont get by flying around in a Van for example on contract and they by the time you do get a multi-crew a/c on you licence they cant operate because they cant fly, Not even stick and rudder flying,

Its a disappointment that they do this, they missing out on all the "Fun" flying. and when it comes down to a emergency they wont know what is going on because they havent got the knowledge,

Shame some will never know

So what is the difference between the 727-100 and the 727-200.....:p jokes
Its a prob, and now imagine the CAA allow that Multi Crew Licence nonsense materialise,
Also makes you think of the old dilhema of pilots becoming pilots for the love of flying, or the love the lifestyle....................:rolleyes:

This has been going on for years especially in Europe. For a measley 70 000 quid one can come straight out of training and be flying for one of the big boys. :mad: :mad: What really gets my goat is I dont have anywhere near this kind of dosh so where does that leave me and most other sane individuals. Nowhere is my guess. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Im not by any means tarring everyone with the same brush, but to me a lot of these "fastrackers" seem to be lacking in the "passion for aviation" department. All they want is daddy's chequebook to enable them to fly a nice big shinny jet. One only has to read some of the other forums to come to this conclusion.:eek: :eek: :E

Bitter................maybe..................;)

I am afraid I have to disagree with several points already made.

1.Contract dog said, 'Well put TD, if you pay that amount of cash, you would expect to come out of it a better pilot?'

Not sure a 'better' pilot. One should have already been trained to a standard, ie. that of a CPL/IR/ME. I would expect the person to come out with a new skill, perhaps turbine knowledge, higher altitude flying and another rung up the ladder of experience. But if you were a crap pilot at PPL, at CPL too, then why should buying 200 hours make you a good pilot.

2.Birdlady said, 'Im not by any means tarring everyone with the same brush, but to me a lot of these "fastrackers" seem to be lacking in the "passion for aviation" department. '

I am not condoning buying ratings, but one has to address the reason why someone parts with such vast amounts of money. Imagine you have paid 40-50 k on your training and you are getting no where, well, the thought of another investment to get you that first job could be a worth while investment.

I have not done it and will not, but I think it unfair to say it shows a lack of passion, because in reality, if most people could afford to do it they would have, so would you also question their passion too?

Finally, I find the people with this passion you talk about the worst pilots of all, the ones who cant do anything other than talk about planes, who have no other real interests and are extremely ambitious. I find these folk very one dimensional.

In my personal experiences, the ladies and gentlemen who have had a life outside of aviation first, ie. a different job /career before flying are the ones capable of making the best decisions and make for more rounded people and therefore pilots.

I thought I said so...
 

What we have here is a case of mistaken identity. One which I have written about since I cannot remember.
Flying is a trade. It has a minumum theory part and a greater practical part. Like being a plumber, an seam welder, a professional diver, bus driver, sheep shearer.
You start of doing what you learnt in theory, and as you do in an apprenticeship, you get better at what you do, by learning from qualified experienced tradesmen, passing knowledge on to you until the day that you experience level is of such a level that you able to complete your work above an exeptable level.
In the last couple of years, and it a monster of our own making, we have been attatching to much emphisys on book learning, and force feeding practical training to the point that someone has achieved the minimum level of experience. We had the aprentices believe that once they have passed the theory and minimum acceptable level of practical flying they are qualfied to much more than just lean how to fly.
Why do I say it of our own making? Because we behave as if flying is an academic achievement.
Tell me who wasnt pissed off when the bank tells you that you cannot qualify for a overdraft because you dont have a academic qualification. I did. Until I realised they are right! I am a tradesmen. The fact that I am required to wear a shirt and tie and eupelettes to work doesnt mean anything, but that its required by the customer/employer that sees me a quasi-military role, like the captain of a ship, and that is why they call me "Captain"!
To become a tradesman in any of the trades you have to achieve a minumum level of theory knowledge, but the big issue is that you have to pass the practical test. No wonder we have to be retested yearly to confirm we still have the practical ability.
Too many of us think because we speak in flying terms, that gibberish to the ears of landlubbers, and if we make an intense study of flying theory that we actually contibute to the collective knowledge of the world.
The only reason there could be to study the theory into dust, was personal vanity and a quest for recognition. So that you could impress your fellow tradesmen with your "superiour theory knowledge" about a very practical thing, as you cannot really show them with your flying unless its one person at a time(the one on your left or right).
Pilots that make a detailed study of an approach plate and give you a 30min lecture about it falls in this catagory. It doesnt matter how well you can brief on a plate or how long you can make the lecture last, if you cant fly, you are still going to die.
So the only way you can get better at a practical subject is practice/experience. and that time, and it the type of time that doesnt come with a fat wallet.
Remember flying an approach should be easy, you should be able to it in bad weather, and if it isnt, you are doing it wrong.
I measure someones level of experience on, how long did he stay alive, while flying in what enviroment.
I dont regard flying 6 times between Capetown and 03L in a 5yr NG medium regional jet, out of its maintence base as a high stress level job. That is not building experience, that what you do when you have it.
To employers, remember, in true capitalist fashion, you should buy the best of the ability out there for the best of your money. Otherwise some is getting cheated.
Ethics is what is left, when bullsh1t, falls apart.
The world is a strange place because we make it that way.

Just my two cents worth.

It is all very well paying for a type rating in Europe/states where ever. However this is a type rating. If someone is willing to pay for a rating then a block sum to build up there hours, although it is good to get there hours up. It has to be asked, have they been lined trained, or just put through a sausage factory type of system.

I myself have been a co-pilot on light aircraft for a fair amount of time, and have found that the challenges that I haved face have been a hell of alot more valuable than paying for a block of 200 hours.

It is also worth a mention that old JO's practises have been the subject of much argument for quite a while.

If I paid for a block 1000 hrs on an Fokker 50 on Sudan Airways does that make me fit to fit the role of a Fokker 50 operation in Europe? I think not.

Cheers

JL

contraxdog

Extremely well put.

(Oh, and I haven't a clue what the difference is between a 727-100 and 727-200 and couldn't care less, and wonder how many other pilots who fly for a job could either.)

One is longer than the other and has an extra bog! (very useful to know!)

All the airlines care about is "money, money," I agree, that the CAA are not doing enough, but hey if they did put a stop to this, who would fill up there pockets with cash.

I cannot believe how corrupt this industry is. In the UK I wonder what the likes of BALPA and IPA do, it would be nice if they brought it up with the CAA, rather than turn a blind eye.

It wouldn't suprise me if the airline4s get thier pilots to pay for fuel next, I wish the realised that we are professionals and actually treated us like that rather then treating pilots as Low Costs.

???
 

South coast, In a way we R on the same page here, what I cant understand is a guy doing all that time, doing a few ratings on mid turbo props and being signed out in his log book as proficient, yet it is clear he is not, why are the powers that be allowing this to happen? there are many great DE's out there that will fail you and take your license if you are not up to speed. What gets me is that for a price you can still go out there and "assure" your place in aviation despite the fact that your ability and training are comletely crap.:ugh:

Have to be careful here with spelling, cause I know the bonehead who has a similar name to yours and I would not like to be on his bad side...

So, contracTdog, without wanting to seem rude or funny, are you a DE, Flight Instructor, DI or is it a DA(not sure)?

My point being, if you are, you would be within your rights ,as their equal- equal to that of the person who signed your fellow pilot off, to report the person whom you deem unfit to be exercising the rights of their licence to the SA CAA.

And heres where I dont want to offend you, if you are not their equal, ie. not a DE, FI, DI/DA (in Europe we call them TRE and TRI, type rating examiners and insructors) then I am not sure if you are qualified to make the critism.

If you feel strongly enought to make the statement that the guy is not up to the standard you consider to be required to pass the CPL/ME/IR skills tests then surely you are obliged to report these pilots to your Chief pilot, Ops manager and the CAA?

Are you sure there is just not a clash of personalities, I know when I have felt I didnt get on with the guy next to me, one suddenly becomes ultra picky and ablt to find fault in just about everything that person says or does.

South Coast,

I think you misunderstood me or most probably I didnt get my point across very well. :\ Beleive me I would be the first person in line for a type rating if I could afford it. Call me old school, but I beleive a job should be earned SOLELY on merit. Obviously my beliefs and reality, are in this case, two completely differant things..........................:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Big money, big job
 

All very interesting stuff this and I must confess that I did speed read through a bit of it. But Birdlady misses a fundamental point of European training (JAA to you and me). The very real and indesputable fact is that no-one in SA (with the possible exception of 43 AS, and they run different course depending on the customer) offers anything close to the acedemics and training and post qualification courses that the best of the JAA guys in Europe do. That is why they can and do put 200 hrs pilots in a shiny new B737-400 or a A320 and the guys hack it. There is so much nonsense about hiring low houred guys in SA and that forces these cash rich idiots to pay for something that they themselves should be getting paid for.

Unless the training in SA matches that which has been conducted in the EU for many years then, yes, the newly minted CPL's will fall short of the flying skills and acedemics required to fly a large machine. And only the industry has itself to blame. If you want competant, knowledgable pilots you should take the lead of the JAA states. In the UK for example I understand that all potential trainees (remember most are paying themselves) are screened. Moreover the UK airlines are now demanding an average of 85% for all 14 exams with NO failures and a first time pass at the Multi/CIRT flight test which we know as the ATPL flight test here in SA. Frankly, just how many in SA reach this standard and have the broad knowledge base of a newly minted JAA pilot with 220 hrs. Not many, but go ahead and count them if you can.

So, what do you want people? ;)

PS
 

Even our SAA cadets don't fly any serious tin for two years but have to cut their teeth on something smaller and often slower. Yet, Kenyan Airways cadets also train at 43 and go straight onto the B737 after graduating. Why the difference?

:hmm:

The biggest problem with the standards of newly trained air crew lay at the foot of the training organisations, and then ultimatly the CAA. Aviation is probably the only profession where new recruits are taught by the members of the profession who have the least experience. Doctors, accountants, architects etc all get their training from highly qualified people who have been in their industry for many years. This is evident at any flight school where you will find 250hr instructors teaching new recruits - why, because the industry won't hire as a rule a new pilot until he has some kind of experience, so he does an instructors rating and sand sacks his hours that way.

At the end of the day, I don't necessarily feel that a low time instructor is always a bad instructor, but the guys are seldom given the instruction tools to do their job well in the first place. A flight school will typically screen the better of their students and offer them an instuctors rating in return for a year or so of work for very low salaries once they get their CPL's. The CAA needs to step in to ensure standards in the form of some kind of instructors school where all ratings, upgrades and renewals are done in order to ensure standards and latest teaching techniques are applied as a standard.

The reason why low time crew make it in other parts of the world is that airlines/operators there spend a whole lot more on training, and they don't accept below standard performance.

Yes, but
 

Current limiter, I like the points you raise but may I humbly disagree with your notion that the flight schools are at fault here; they are the indirect tools of the CAA dispensing the syllabus as the CAA lays down. It is a great credit to 43 (I do not work for them) that they turn our the better quality of CPLs in this country as evidenced as least by the reputation and standing they enjoy. It is certainly the case that in this country we do have a system where the least experienced teach the core skills; many do an exceptional job, others are more mediocre. The sadness is that these young keen instructors lack the line experience to add colour to the overall picture. In the UK it seems to be quite the opposite, thankfully. The training industry here in SA might well do more to recruit the great wealth of experience tied up in our retired flight crew but I realise that after many years of aviation many are more happy to spend their time at the 19th hole. If there is anything to learn by the JAA system it is this, 200 hr graduate pilots of the approved schools can and DO enter the employment stream at a level where most of our pilots here take 3-5 years of hard badly paid graft to get to.

How do we address this and overcome the matter that was first raised in this thread?

;)

Catch22
 

This is my first response on pprune, so undersand if I havent figured out the proper way to respond and ask questions in the pprune way!
I am in the process of earning my FAA commercial mulit and I have to say, its tough to be in the position to try and get a job where they ask for experence, but there is no place to get such experence. It is even tougher to live on a flight instructors pay. My question is, if I have 300hrs, 115 multi, will I still be able to find a job in Africa, or will I be forced into paying for flight time to compete with these people? I dont want to pay if I can help it, but this thread got me a little down. Any help would be great in understanding what I would need to do

If I had serious coin and could fast track myself to a better flying position I would have done so...
If you are not cut to be a pilot then your career will falter somewhere along the line.
Good luck to this chap. He may get the break he does not deserve or he will wash up on the beach somewhere with the multitude of other dreamy eyed morons.
There are many filters in aviation and paying for time without cutting your teeth is a sure way to regret signing the cheque....

"If there is anything to learn by the JAA system it is this, 200 hr graduate pilots of the approved schools can and DO enter the employment stream at a level where most of our pilots here take 3-5 years of hard badly paid graft to get to. "

Bucket, just my 2 cents worth.....:O

While the JAA system places a lot of emphasis on the theoretical and the mulit crew environment etc etc..... I have found that most JAA low time pilots (trained in the UK) looking for work (outside the UK) battle to maintain the centreline... lazy feet? So he can pass the exams and the sim test but not so hot in the hands-on department, and don't get me started on the subject of airmanship! Most of the pilots train abroad anyhow..... so don't mock the systems that your fellow aviators have tarined at
While I will say that the standards in SA appear to have dropped, it is very hard to generalise, it's really up to each individuals own ability.
My opinion on the JO's of the aviation industry is that there is clealry a market for it....Hell, I remember being approached, and while I might not agree with it all, some people A) have the cash and B) are that desperate. It's not cool how these poor suckers are being taken for a ride...... but then again when it comes to the interview at the next job... surely the employer who is holding the interview would pick this sort of thing up..... ask for a reference or something?
At the end of the day, realistically what can we do about this situation? It's up to the future employers to control the path of these pilots to a certain degree.
;)

hole in the bucket
 

Bucket, mate, sorry to say but there are a few holes in your theory, 1st, a lot of JAA students come here to SA to do their training and then go back home to do the subjects and still end up in the right seat of an A320 way before we do, so was the training they got here worse? I think not. 2nd, the reason they get there sooner is that there are a hell of a lot more heavy a/c there than here, not because they are superior. 3rd, some of the best pilots I have ever flown with were 300hr instructors, though I never did it, I dont see a problem with a 200hr instructor teaching a new ppl if it is done correctly as most of the schools here in SA do. 4th, so what if the JAA has 14 complex exams and UK pilots have a better theory base of knowlage? at the end of the day that theory means sh!t if they dont get a chance to fly and gain the experiance (would you prefer a 200hr jaa student next to you in an A320 when the poo starts flying or a guy who hat gone and cut his teeth on light a/c 1st?)

South coast, thanks for the reply, sorry, net has been down for days, africa wins again. No, I am not a DE but I dont think that that means I cant see when a guy has been trained badly, I have lost count of how many people I have flown with in my life and know a good co jo when I see one. As for the not liking him, wrong, I like and admire the guy for packing up a good job and moving over to aviation at such a late stage. that is also why I dont mind him paying for more training and hrs on a big a/c to jump start things a bit. What I am the hell in about is that a nice guy like him was taken for a ride, thinking this would help him and yet he was not given the level of training he paid for. I am happy to report that he has come a long way in the last month and will be on top of it all soon.
You are right though, I am not in a position to do anything about it as I am not a DE, so what can be done to stop the JO's of the world creating unsafe pilots?

Tango and Contract,

Could not have said it better myself. :D :D Although I can not comment on the CPL :O :O I can comment on the PPL as I've done both JAA and SA licences. Although the JAA was more difficult I found the SA ppl to be far more practicle...........and a lot more fun if Im perfectly honest as our syllabus is less confining. I love a challenge while Im in the cockpit and things like low flying and landing in bush strips is more my cup of tea than how many miles I have to go untill I get to the next NDB. I will go out on a limb here and say that if I was a "real pilot" :rolleyes: :rolleyes: I would much prefer a co jo that has already cut his teeth then somebody who is a low houred wonder jock. But then I've never wanted to push buttons for a living. :p :p

:ok: :ok:

**quote**

at the end of the day that theory means sh!t if they dont get a chance to fly and gain the experiance (would you prefer a 200hr jaa student next to you in an A320 when the poo starts flying or a guy who hat gone and cut his teeth on light a/c 1st?)

ContractDog, I am sure you dont really mean the above.

You must remember the 200 hour guy flying a A320/B737 has successfully completed an approved type rating course and therefore is capable of flying the plane.

Of course he is not capable of making big decissions, thats why he is an f-o and not a captain.

Your comparison is unfair, because your person who has, 'cut his teeth' has also undergone the type rating training, by virtue of the fact that he is flying the plane...so you are asking people to compare a 200 hour guy against maybe a 1500 hour guy.

The point I am making is, if they are flying the plane, it means they have completed the type rating course, an LPC, and a 6 monthly OPC.

Basically, it comes down to a different approach from the industry, in Europe, airlines accept that a 200 hour guy with a very good type rating training course is capable of flying that plane as an f-o, where as in SA they dont.

Who is right, who is wrong, thats a harder question, but you dont hear of many planes falling out the sky here because the f-o only had 200 hours.

Do you really believe airlines would risk their name, reputation and whole business on an unsound approach to crewing their aicraft?

Yip you both have valid points!
On the one hand the guys are flying the jets
in Europe earlier because there are way more here
then back home in SA, plus there is a huge demand
here in europe at the moment.Easy and Ryan are both
looking for crew, the figures are frightening!(just to name 2 operators)
These guys have got to pass their type rating and that
is to a standard, doesn't matter if you got 200hrs or 2500hrs total
time.Seems that they have it easier, but its just normal progression here.

On the otherhand the SA market is way slower for some obvious
reasons,( i'm so over it), so you gotta go fly in the bush for
a few years! Blah blah blah!!! Thats why I am busy with my JAA. You gotta make decisions here.

Oh and compare apples with apples ;)

Why do they pop 200 hrs pilots into the RHS in JAR land - because they dont have any GA industry to speak of to generate pilots with real world experience. And why does it work? Because flying in JAR land is so highly regulated, controlled and automated that it becomes a fly by numbers routine - and the type ratings in general are a lot more thorough.

Having flown with a number of low time co-pilots in a contract environment, I can state with confidence that there is simply no substitute for experience. A co-pilot with no real world experience substantially increases the pressure on the captain, deviates his or her attention from managing the flight to monitoring and instructing the co-pilot, and in my opinion significantly reduces overall safety. The whole point of the second person in the cockpit is to increase safety and reduce the workload on the captain, not the opposite.

The fact that there are some DEs handing out seriously suspect type ratings does not help the whole situation.

Oh yeah - and please don't get me started on the low life scum who charge low time pilots to fly RHS on passenger carrying, revenue earning flights. As far as I am concerned this is criminal and should be prevented by regulation.