British Airways Incident at Johannesburg

[Mooney12]

I don't think the final figures are to blame here. Remember, there were three pilots on the flight deck on this flight. Quite often the 'heavy' will deal with the figures.

Also, BA has recently changed the SOP's on the 747 substantially. One noticeable upside of this was the removal of nearly all distractions during the taxi phase. (I.e. the flight controls are now checked before taxi etc).

This was just a simple mistake in a very dark area of the airfield. Unfortunately, the consequences were severe. Looking at the photos on here, it is a very badly designed portion of the taxiway.

[Pinkman]

It enables both crew to keep their attention focused on the critical phase of flight called taxiing;

Good point - its a hole in the cheese whichever way you look at it

Modern performance methods and/or systems used in some other airlines are instant, they do not rely on a (London based) central performance department issuing instructions to crew scattered globally taxiing their aircraft, totally unaware of the delays it causes other operators

I know quite a few Nigels and they are very totally aware of it, believe me. My understanding is that it isn't just London based, there are, or used to be, several additional regional centres which handle BA clearances via ACARS. Are there any alternatives that are as safe? Crew operated Laptop? (think MK - Halifax). You could argue that they shouldn't push back or should push back and hold while waiting, however, but on a crowded ramp or when there is a shortage of gate space that is possibly just as bad.

I'm not a professional runway engineer so I cant say whether the signage at that turn meets international standards but I find it hard to imagine that it passes the red face test at night.

[Hand Solo]

There's little or no signage along that intersection and as an occasional visitor to JNB I've had to ask my colleagues which way I should be going more than once at that very spot. A sea of badly spaced blue edge lights doesn't help, nor does BAs new 747 SOPS which lead to task compression near the runway holding point.

[Mooney12]

nor does BAs new 747 SOPS which lead to task compression near the runway holding point.

Actually, thinking about it, I'd have to give you that one. Depending how long it takes to get the final figures and crew signal, it can all be compressed into the line-up phase.

[wiggy]

Skyjob

totally unaware of the delays it causes other operators;

Trust me, most of the "Nigels" on the line are fully aware of the problems the system can cause both to themselves and other operators. But complaining about it to head office feels like this:

[newfoundglory]

IMHO from those photos even i can see this was an accident waiting to happen! Ultimately, BA crew have made serious errors here but still that taxiway cannot be conducive to safe operations at that end of the runway?

I would have thought that applies during the day, as well as night when things are even more dangerous!

It makes me wonder how many other pilots would have made this mistake at JNB... maybe most were just 'following the aircraft in front' ??

[overstress]

What wiggy said. Nigels are very aware of final figure delays.

[FullWings]

Looking at that picture, the fact that the taxiway narrows quite a bit was probably contributory to the accident. If you weren't aware of how much the width reduced and/or the size of the building, you could easily get the impression that there was room to get by as there is plenty of grass between the edge of the tarmac and the brick wall. The scale is consistent but wrong - add in that it was dark and there's lots of holes in the cheese waiting to get you. If the taxiway carried on at the same width, it would be much more apparent that something was not right: "Hey! That building's close!"

Green lights to follow and stop bars like LHR, SIN and some other airfields would be a good way of reducing the likelihood of going down the wrong route. Just stop bars at critical points (runway entries, narrow taxiways, etc.) would be a start...

[J.O.]

I am not suggesting that this event was caused by late load figures, but I know of another large international airline that has changed their procedures in the last couple of years so that the pushback cannot begin until the final load figures have been received and all relevant FMS entries have been completed. The change was driven by a number of taxiing incidents that were traced to crew member distraction. The procedural change wasn't just at the front end crew level. Load planning and computation procedures were revised and simplified and the net result has been a fairly efficient program that rarely results in delays or LMCs. Those who taxi behind them are very pleased they made this decision as they were once notorious for holding up the queue waiting for the final numbers.

[Bahrd]

Originally Posted by Pax Vobiscum

Several posters have stated that they have taken similar 'wrong turns' at night, fortunately without consequence. As a pax with great respect for the safety culture of the aviation industry, I would like to know if such incidents are reported/investigated as they would be (I think) if they happened in the air.

Does it make sense to create a thread on PPRuNe (with properly restricted access) where you, the flight crew, could take advantage of the forum's anonymity and report such a potential traps to each other?

[slowjet]

Bahrd : Used to be called "Chirps". Part of the Uk AIB, I think. I stopped getting it when they started charging for what was, up until then, a free publication.

But look. We all know that in this profession, we are paid to get it right, every time. Incidents happen, errors occur and we pay the price. Most of us realise this when we sign up and a really professional company will make that critically known to it's Commanders. These guys got it horribly wrong. No amount of carping on Pprune will change that. What is excellent is that by these exchanges, we can all learn and avoid these nasty traps.

[kick the tires]

Does it make sense to create a thread on PPRuNe (with properly restricted access) where you, the flight crew, could take advantage of the forum's anonymity and report such a potential traps to each other?

If you think there is anonymity on pprune, you are sadly mistaken - as many EX RYR pilots will testify!!

[mary meagher]

Runway incursions - or excursions....

Read through the whole thread, expecting only the usual PPRuNe schadenfreude.....(pleasure felt at some one else's misfortune).

ALEXANDER MEERKAT in post 150 refers us to an FAA runway incursion animation (with potential major disaster implications). If there are any actual pilots still reading this thread, please click onto that post 150.

Because the only thing that prevented another Teneriffe calamity was the good sense and airmanship of the US Air pilot who refused to take off when ATC told him it was OK, and it was NOT OK. Said the US Air pilot, "we will hold short until you get it figured out....."

I hope he got a big increase in salary, he earned it that evening.

The other sensible contributor is Pukindog, if he was in command of my aircraft I would trust his judgement any night, even at O'Hare - or Africa.

[Old and Horrified]

I think you will find that CHIRP FEEDBACK is issued free to all UK CAA licensed pilots.

[Sir George Cayley]

For the time being............

[DozyWannabe]

Originally Posted by captplaystation

Given how outrageously the management (some of it not even pilot management) behaved towards the last crew to be involved in such a public incident (thinking the LHR 777 not the open cowling Bus jobbie) one can only hope that their treatment of the crew is more considered & consistent across the whole enquiry than they managed back then . . .when the FD crew went from being publicy feted heroes to having their abilities questioned in the fluttering of a stewards eyelash.

A reasonable assessment, but let's not forget that it was instigated by the press, as the Captain involved abided by BA protocol and refused interviews. The FO gave an interview, but IIRC only after the press hacks began to harass his elderly mother.

As we've since learned from the Leveson inquiry, standard tabloid practice when faced with refusal of an exclusive is then to dig up anything they can find and threaten to run that article instead - amounting to blackmail couched in the terminology of "we want you to tell *your* side". Ongoing industrial tensions between flight crew and cabin crew may have made their job easier, but it was the gutter press who behaved the most despicably.

Incidentally, to the best of my knowledge I don't recall anyone I know to be current or former members of Camp Nigel giving the Asiana crew a hard time in that thread - so while some may hold double standards on the subject, I doubt it's fair to tar Nigel with that brush.

[newfoundglory]

Can someone explain what the repair/insurance options are on something like this? Who actually pays here, BA or the insurer?

[Interested Passenger]

As I understand it there are six aircraft class widths, with the 747 being either class E for a 400 or F for the 800
Would it not make sense for the taxiway centre lines to be a different colour depending on class?
I wouldn't want to be too bold and suggest the full range of colours to use as that would require an international committee but if in the above photos the yellow (big boys) line curved left and a lilac line continued straight on for corporate jets then it could help reduce the opportunity to cock up which should be the aim of the industry.

Heck they could go mad and fit coloured cats eyes as used on motorways for years.

Just an idea from a passenger

[MrSnuggles]

I hope the airport learns from this.

Sadly the airport sure didn't learn from the Linate disaster - it took a SAS planeload of passengers for Linate to get someone to actually mowe the lawn and do some paint job on the taxiways.

Here it seems they really need some signs. Signs are quite cheap, eh?

[Count Niemantznarr]

Perhaps the question should be asked why the building was placed close enough to the taxiway, so that it was possible for a large jet to clip it? The taxiway was there first.

If it is any consolation to the BA pilots, they are the fourth aircraft to have made this mistake.

It is noticeable that this is a sensitive subject amongst the BA flight crew. They have been a cocky lot in the recent past, and now a little humility is being displayed for a change.