British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
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It's Jan Smuts to me too (and better than many first world airports), but the then country north of the Limpopo is Rhodesia ...... but not the point. This happened at a so-called first world airport!
Passengers waiting to fly out from xxxxxxxxx Airport were today being warned that it could take several days before flights returned to normal, as engineers battled to restore power.
Thousands of furious travellers were left stranded after Monday night's storm caused a power cut at the busy terminal, with the outage also preventing people from being able to check in their luggage, get a warm drink and even use the toilets, which rely on automatic flushes.
The airport said that normal service would resume today, although the majority of flights were due to depart and carrier xxxxxxxxx warned that it could take 'a couple of days' before the schedule was fully back on track.
Meanwhile, many passengers who had given up waiting amid yesterday's chaos today were battling to retrieve their luggage when their flights were cancelled after they had checked-in and their bags were not returned.
Thousands of furious travellers were left stranded after Monday night's storm caused a power cut at the busy terminal, with the outage also preventing people from being able to check in their luggage, get a warm drink and even use the toilets, which rely on automatic flushes.
The airport said that normal service would resume today, although the majority of flights were due to depart and carrier xxxxxxxxx warned that it could take 'a couple of days' before the schedule was fully back on track.
Meanwhile, many passengers who had given up waiting amid yesterday's chaos today were battling to retrieve their luggage when their flights were cancelled after they had checked-in and their bags were not returned.
BA frequently used to do that at Heathrow "Just getting the numbers" as we told them to line up! Maybe they don't now (hopefully).
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Humm ?
I certainly will not cast a stone with regard to missing the correct taxiway as I have nearly done the same at that particular intersection. The lighting is poor and we certainly could use some form of red intersection lighting...
My issue with this incident changed when I learnt four of my family members where on-board the flight....some of the pictures taken were from my nephew.
So here is my open question to B.A., which will be addressed in a more formal manner. If someone from P.R. is following this thread, then please consider an answer for us all.
1. If I were a passenger on-board and I ignored the instructions from the cabin crew to remain seated and decided to evacuate via a door slide with my family in tow, what would be B.A.'s position ?
( This in light of fuel leaking from the wing into a partly demolished building and associated exposed 220V wiring ).
Would I receive a life time ban, fine or criminal charge ?
2. Why was there no controlled evacuation order given ? The cabin crews answer to my sister and mother, was that the aircraft would be unbalanced and could "sit on her tail"......
While we all know there certainly would be injuries from a slide evacuation, why does B.A. seem to be more concerned from minor injury litigation than risking much more losses, if there had been a post impact fire. I certainly would not trust someone finding the electrical isolation switch for the building in question, if there is one in the first place.
It was a great job from all concerned, the fire department mainly, who prevented this from being far worse.
That said and with the limited info available here on the thread, if I was the captain, I would not have taken the chance....get your pax to safety !
Standing by for the return fire.....
My issue with this incident changed when I learnt four of my family members where on-board the flight....some of the pictures taken were from my nephew.
So here is my open question to B.A., which will be addressed in a more formal manner. If someone from P.R. is following this thread, then please consider an answer for us all.
1. If I were a passenger on-board and I ignored the instructions from the cabin crew to remain seated and decided to evacuate via a door slide with my family in tow, what would be B.A.'s position ?
( This in light of fuel leaking from the wing into a partly demolished building and associated exposed 220V wiring ).
Would I receive a life time ban, fine or criminal charge ?
2. Why was there no controlled evacuation order given ? The cabin crews answer to my sister and mother, was that the aircraft would be unbalanced and could "sit on her tail"......
While we all know there certainly would be injuries from a slide evacuation, why does B.A. seem to be more concerned from minor injury litigation than risking much more losses, if there had been a post impact fire. I certainly would not trust someone finding the electrical isolation switch for the building in question, if there is one in the first place.
It was a great job from all concerned, the fire department mainly, who prevented this from being far worse.
That said and with the limited info available here on the thread, if I was the captain, I would not have taken the chance....get your pax to safety !
Standing by for the return fire.....
Last edited by Golf_Seirra; 25th Dec 2013 at 11:46.
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Capetonian,
You compare a power outage in severe storm conditions to power outage on a normal day. My last JNB trip was during perfect weather conditions . JHB had no fuel available due to prolonged power failures, for no apparent reason but incompetence.
You compare a power outage in severe storm conditions to power outage on a normal day. My last JNB trip was during perfect weather conditions . JHB had no fuel available due to prolonged power failures, for no apparent reason but incompetence.
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Most revealing, that last photofrom the cockpit
How strange that an english countryside "B"-road, used mainly by sub-50 thousand pound cars and tractors, is a damned -sight better marked and signposted, than a taxiway used mainly by ~50 MILLION pound aircraft
It amazes me , how pilots find their way around with such piss-poor signage and vast expanses of concrete with a couple of scabby, worn and low-viz paintlines at best.
OTOH, Myself and the rest of the B-road users, don't set ourselves up as professional drivers commanding £100, 000 plus, to exercise our skills!
I won't bring the odd lorry-driver getting stuck under a bridge, or the double-decker driver who converts it to single under said obstruction
into the debate. ( again, poor pay and poor training for what they do and the responsibility they ultimately carry.)
Perhaps internationally, professional Aviators' "unions" should be collectively directing their energies towards persuading these wayward airports to upgrade their facilities to 21st. century standards, or suffer a distinct lack of professional Aviators bringing custom to said "landing strip"
How strange that an english countryside "B"-road, used mainly by sub-50 thousand pound cars and tractors, is a damned -sight better marked and signposted, than a taxiway used mainly by ~50 MILLION pound aircraft
It amazes me , how pilots find their way around with such piss-poor signage and vast expanses of concrete with a couple of scabby, worn and low-viz paintlines at best.
OTOH, Myself and the rest of the B-road users, don't set ourselves up as professional drivers commanding £100, 000 plus, to exercise our skills!
I won't bring the odd lorry-driver getting stuck under a bridge, or the double-decker driver who converts it to single under said obstruction
into the debate. ( again, poor pay and poor training for what they do and the responsibility they ultimately carry.)
Perhaps internationally, professional Aviators' "unions" should be collectively directing their energies towards persuading these wayward airports to upgrade their facilities to 21st. century standards, or suffer a distinct lack of professional Aviators bringing custom to said "landing strip"
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Golf Sierra
Not speaking specifically about this incident, but as a skipper, I would tend to avoid an evacuation if at all possible. It can cause life changing injuries.
Avtur is not Avgas / petrol. It is really quite hard work to ignite, does not explode when in liquid form, and if you have a fire service standing by - even if it does light up, will be suppressed ASAP.
Bear in mind the Flt Crew do not tend to say "we will not evacuate" - they say "we will not evacuate now". That decision can be "upgraded" to evacuate instantly, and everybody will be off in 90s. I know of few (Saudi TriStar) non-evacuations which were costly in losing lives, I can think of plenty where in retrospect, an evacuation might have been better avoided/delayed. Bottom Line:
I am not trained that an evacuation is getting my pax to safety - it is putting them in real danger. It is done when it is assessed it is safer (or less hazardous) than not evacuating. That of course is largely a subjective decision
I have no idea what BA would do to pax who initiate an evacuation themselves. In circumstances such as this, it would be more for the investigation team to assess, and make recommendations as required. As Flt Crew we are aware an evacuation may be initiated by "others", normally CC.
As above, I would not bother writing to BA about the (non-)evacuation. Better, if you have a genuine concern, would be to communicate with whoever is investigating - it is after all a significant factor in their job.
Not speaking specifically about this incident, but as a skipper, I would tend to avoid an evacuation if at all possible. It can cause life changing injuries.
Avtur is not Avgas / petrol. It is really quite hard work to ignite, does not explode when in liquid form, and if you have a fire service standing by - even if it does light up, will be suppressed ASAP.
Bear in mind the Flt Crew do not tend to say "we will not evacuate" - they say "we will not evacuate now". That decision can be "upgraded" to evacuate instantly, and everybody will be off in 90s. I know of few (Saudi TriStar) non-evacuations which were costly in losing lives, I can think of plenty where in retrospect, an evacuation might have been better avoided/delayed. Bottom Line:
if I was the captain, I would not have taken the chance....get your pax to safety !
I have no idea what BA would do to pax who initiate an evacuation themselves. In circumstances such as this, it would be more for the investigation team to assess, and make recommendations as required. As Flt Crew we are aware an evacuation may be initiated by "others", normally CC.
As above, I would not bother writing to BA about the (non-)evacuation. Better, if you have a genuine concern, would be to communicate with whoever is investigating - it is after all a significant factor in their job.
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Thanks for the reply.....I agree about JET A1. Not as volatile as people think. But I still worry about if we were now discussing why an evac was not initiated in a worst case scenario.
Seems to be these situations are always skirting the devil you do, damned if you don't situation.
Reminds me that there is never a clear cut reaction / answer to any given scenario...
Damn Christmas in the Sahara, Merry Christmas to all those away from family.
Seems to be these situations are always skirting the devil you do, damned if you don't situation.
Reminds me that there is never a clear cut reaction / answer to any given scenario...
Damn Christmas in the Sahara, Merry Christmas to all those away from family.
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There are reasons why the layout and signage have never been sorted.
When I was there 30mumble years ago Smuts was owned by the railways, managed by political appointees and staffing was reserved employment for idiots.
Now it is run by a state owned airports company, only the names and the colour of the faces has changed.
When I was there 30mumble years ago Smuts was owned by the railways, managed by political appointees and staffing was reserved employment for idiots.
Now it is run by a state owned airports company, only the names and the colour of the faces has changed.
I have followed this thread with great interest. I would like to say something from the perspective of 'the other side of the door'.
I spent just shy of 40 years on commercial jets and the folk at the sharp end brought me home safely to my loved ones every time.
It is easy to be critical when an incident like this occurs and it is true that mistakes can happen to even the most experienced pilot, however no one on that aircraft deserves to be vilified or pilloried. For what ever reason circumstances came together and the accident happened. The crew will be as unhappy as anyone about the outcome their careers will be blighted by this and for the younger ones their prospects will be diminished.
I hope that BA take a constructive approach to any action and that the folks at the front can continue to deliver the norm - safe and secure operations for all.
I spent just shy of 40 years on commercial jets and the folk at the sharp end brought me home safely to my loved ones every time.
It is easy to be critical when an incident like this occurs and it is true that mistakes can happen to even the most experienced pilot, however no one on that aircraft deserves to be vilified or pilloried. For what ever reason circumstances came together and the accident happened. The crew will be as unhappy as anyone about the outcome their careers will be blighted by this and for the younger ones their prospects will be diminished.
I hope that BA take a constructive approach to any action and that the folks at the front can continue to deliver the norm - safe and secure operations for all.
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The panic of the sheeple when they think they are about to die....
Thats dangerous.
The broken ankles, legs, and anything else they can find that hurts afterwards...
180 panicked pax milling around airside....?
Thats dangerous.
The broken ankles, legs, and anything else they can find that hurts afterwards...
180 panicked pax milling around airside....?
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This was an accident, not an incident, and judging from the picture, it was waiting to happen.
Now, extra work in the cockpit will decrease outside monitoring. I don't know if it was applicable here, but "waiting for the numbers" and engine start during taxi could be involved.
And there is a huge difference between taking the wrong taxiway and not being able to land your aircraft in CAVOK conditions.
On my very first flight as a jet captain, I nearly buried my left wing in a container when I was parking the aircraft. I missed because the wing went over the container. I have also been on the wrong taxiway once or twice, so i'm not going to throw any stones.
A rotten Xmas for the crew on this flight. I hope you come through this OK.
Now, extra work in the cockpit will decrease outside monitoring. I don't know if it was applicable here, but "waiting for the numbers" and engine start during taxi could be involved.
And there is a huge difference between taking the wrong taxiway and not being able to land your aircraft in CAVOK conditions.
On my very first flight as a jet captain, I nearly buried my left wing in a container when I was parking the aircraft. I missed because the wing went over the container. I have also been on the wrong taxiway once or twice, so i'm not going to throw any stones.
A rotten Xmas for the crew on this flight. I hope you come through this OK.
Plumbum Pendular
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But I still worry about if we were now discussing why an evac was not initiated in a worst case scenario
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Had the scenario been "worse case", I have no doubt an evacuation would have been initiated if required.
In this case (and often in fact), I'm with NoD. It was not and the option to escalate was always there if required.
When I first started flying widebodies, it was suggested by the trainers that from a full aircraft there was a significant chance of at least one fatality following a planned evacuation. Therefore it should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
In this case (and often in fact), I'm with NoD. It was not and the option to escalate was always there if required.
When I first started flying widebodies, it was suggested by the trainers that from a full aircraft there was a significant chance of at least one fatality following a planned evacuation. Therefore it should be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
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Might cause fatalities? I can't recall any fatalities caused solely by the evacuation. Injuries are almost a given on any evacuations.
In this case evacuation wasn't called for. The risk of evacuating was greater than the risk of staying.
In this case evacuation wasn't called for. The risk of evacuating was greater than the risk of staying.
Would you want to evacuate from a 747? Cripes, no thanks. Even leaping from the main deck would be akin to a two-story rubber slide, let alone the top deck which would be a pretty scary proposition. Broken bones aplenty.
One shouldn't be cavalier when considering evacuation and it's always a tough call - I'm thinking the 737 in Okinawa went up quickly - but I also know that ponds of Jet-A1 aren't as risky as people think.
I had a serious leak from a 737 last year, with a veritable lake of the stuff. The fire service (major UK airport) were very relaxed about it and in fact asked us not to disembark because they feared an orderly disembarkation in itself might panic people unnecessarily. I have to admit feeling somewhat uneasy...
One shouldn't be cavalier when considering evacuation and it's always a tough call - I'm thinking the 737 in Okinawa went up quickly - but I also know that ponds of Jet-A1 aren't as risky as people think.
I had a serious leak from a 737 last year, with a veritable lake of the stuff. The fire service (major UK airport) were very relaxed about it and in fact asked us not to disembark because they feared an orderly disembarkation in itself might panic people unnecessarily. I have to admit feeling somewhat uneasy...
Mistrust in Management
VCtenderness
A very balanced and pleasant comment from someone who has obviously flown with BA for many years.
All I can say is that there for the grace etc. There are times when despite the best preparation for the taxy and flight events conspire, perhaps you are tired and not at your normal best. Remember the saying about monkeys and typewriters - in the end, given enough time the works of Shakespeare will be produced.
Fact is that if people fly for long enough eventually events bad or good will happen. Statistical fact.
That is what SMS should be all about. JNB will definitely have an SMS, but have they just paid lip service to it as most airports seem to do.
Have they actively sought out the threats that may be waiting for the holes in the cheese to line up.
This event seems to me to be one such threat either noted and ignored, or perhaps just not noted in the first place.
JNB need to have a good look at their airport infrastructure and procedures.
All I can say is that there for the grace etc. There are times when despite the best preparation for the taxy and flight events conspire, perhaps you are tired and not at your normal best. Remember the saying about monkeys and typewriters - in the end, given enough time the works of Shakespeare will be produced.
Fact is that if people fly for long enough eventually events bad or good will happen. Statistical fact.
That is what SMS should be all about. JNB will definitely have an SMS, but have they just paid lip service to it as most airports seem to do.
Have they actively sought out the threats that may be waiting for the holes in the cheese to line up.
This event seems to me to be one such threat either noted and ignored, or perhaps just not noted in the first place.
JNB need to have a good look at their airport infrastructure and procedures.
