British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
Nothing new in the world! Airbus Industrie managed to bury the wingtip of an A-380 demo aircraft into the corner of FSI's simulator center building at Le Bourget not so long ago, in front of thousands attending Paris Air Show!
The daylight picture goes part way to understanding the situation.
Could somebody take a nighttime snap -- please?
Could somebody take a nighttime snap -- please?
Controversial, moi?
Not to make excuses but anybody who has taxied a B747 in the dark on a relatively poorly lit airfield with it not possible to see your wingtips will have an appreciation of what is being discussed that is only possible to gain from actually experiencing it.
I did a similar thing as a first officer in Bogota, the captain had been momentarily distracted and I followed a taxiway not approved for the B747. Fortunately it was only short and although narrow there were no obstructions. Funny enough that was at night too! The only thing to be damaged was my pride but it did teach me a valuable lesson about the hazards of taxiing.
I did a similar thing as a first officer in Bogota, the captain had been momentarily distracted and I followed a taxiway not approved for the B747. Fortunately it was only short and although narrow there were no obstructions. Funny enough that was at night too! The only thing to be damaged was my pride but it did teach me a valuable lesson about the hazards of taxiing.
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Pukindog:
>>Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world, and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the jog to the left, the expectation to look for the red hold-short sign for the runway (as clearly seen in the picture) and the fact that there's a taxiway leading straight ahead you don't want to take. The whole purpose of briefing beforehand it is to figure out the traps before you begin taxiing and arrive there because there are cockpit chore and duty distractions in between. If you expect there to be no traps or have them all magically erased you're in the wrong business.<<
Correct - but your post is in response to a previous incident and is idealistic.
Say the aircraft had got airborne as planned and suffered a double engine failure (birdstrikes?) at 100'. You might then post criticising the captain for not briefing for the double engine failure, the low level terrain, the emergency fuel dump procedure, the immediate return for an overweight landing on the reciprocal runway, the evac procedure after the resulting brake fires etc etc.
It's all very well being wise after the event but it's clearly impractical to brief for every eventuality. Hindsight is a wonderful attribute.
>>Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world, and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the jog to the left, the expectation to look for the red hold-short sign for the runway (as clearly seen in the picture) and the fact that there's a taxiway leading straight ahead you don't want to take. The whole purpose of briefing beforehand it is to figure out the traps before you begin taxiing and arrive there because there are cockpit chore and duty distractions in between. If you expect there to be no traps or have them all magically erased you're in the wrong business.<<
Correct - but your post is in response to a previous incident and is idealistic.
Say the aircraft had got airborne as planned and suffered a double engine failure (birdstrikes?) at 100'. You might then post criticising the captain for not briefing for the double engine failure, the low level terrain, the emergency fuel dump procedure, the immediate return for an overweight landing on the reciprocal runway, the evac procedure after the resulting brake fires etc etc.
It's all very well being wise after the event but it's clearly impractical to brief for every eventuality. Hindsight is a wonderful attribute.
Paxing All Over The World
As an outsider and one who has merely beein paxing into FAJS for 48 years.
The photo shows that there is no big 'turn left' sign and, we are told, fewer signs are illuminated at night at JNB. Really?? But then, this is Africa.
I can see two mgmts involved. the SA airports mgmt who have not plugged this whole (despite seeing ever more a/c from ever more countries bring their precious tourists that SA so desperately needs) .
Then I see a potential mgmt involved in the sending of numbers after the push. Sounds like a good way to save time? Hmmm.
Lastly, it has been stated that the F and WT+ pax did NOT disembark first. Due to the physical layout, the unloaded from the last row, down steps to busses.
This was a cheese and like all cheses, all the parts were known about in advance. And I'll bet that two lots of mgmt (SA and BA) will not have their careers blighted by this. besides, of those that took the decisions, most will already be retired. As always. THAT'S why i feel sympathy for the crew.
The photo shows that there is no big 'turn left' sign and, we are told, fewer signs are illuminated at night at JNB. Really?? But then, this is Africa.
I can see two mgmts involved. the SA airports mgmt who have not plugged this whole (despite seeing ever more a/c from ever more countries bring their precious tourists that SA so desperately needs) .
Then I see a potential mgmt involved in the sending of numbers after the push. Sounds like a good way to save time? Hmmm.
Lastly, it has been stated that the F and WT+ pax did NOT disembark first. Due to the physical layout, the unloaded from the last row, down steps to busses.
This was a cheese and like all cheses, all the parts were known about in advance. And I'll bet that two lots of mgmt (SA and BA) will not have their careers blighted by this. besides, of those that took the decisions, most will already be retired. As always. THAT'S why i feel sympathy for the crew.
wilsr
Pukindog:
>>Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world, and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the jog to the left, the expectation to look for the red hold-short sign for the runway (as clearly seen in the picture) and the fact that there's a taxiway leading straight ahead you don't want to take. The whole purpose of briefing beforehand it is to figure out the traps before you begin taxiing and arrive there because there are cockpit chore and duty distractions in between. If you expect there to be no traps or have them all magically erased you're in the wrong business.<<
Correct - but your post is in response to a previous incident and is idealistic.
Say the aircraft had got airborne as planned and suffered a double engine failure (birdstrikes?) at 100'. You might then post criticising the captain for not briefing for the double engine failure, the low level terrain, the emergency fuel dump procedure, the immediate return for an overweight landing on the reciprocal runway, the evac procedure after the resulting brake fires etc etc.
It's all very well being wise after the event but it's clearly impractical to brief for every eventuality. Hindsight is a wonderful attribute.
Pukindog:
>>Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world, and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the jog to the left, the expectation to look for the red hold-short sign for the runway (as clearly seen in the picture) and the fact that there's a taxiway leading straight ahead you don't want to take. The whole purpose of briefing beforehand it is to figure out the traps before you begin taxiing and arrive there because there are cockpit chore and duty distractions in between. If you expect there to be no traps or have them all magically erased you're in the wrong business.<<
Correct - but your post is in response to a previous incident and is idealistic.
Say the aircraft had got airborne as planned and suffered a double engine failure (birdstrikes?) at 100'. You might then post criticising the captain for not briefing for the double engine failure, the low level terrain, the emergency fuel dump procedure, the immediate return for an overweight landing on the reciprocal runway, the evac procedure after the resulting brake fires etc etc.
It's all very well being wise after the event but it's clearly impractical to brief for every eventuality. Hindsight is a wonderful attribute.
What has been lost as far as things that could prevent this has nothing to do with depending on some 3rd world airport authority to rectify problems that will never be rectified. What hasn't been addressed is what we as pilots do to mitigate these threats up until that day (which will never come) where everything is perfectly laid-out for us and we don't even have to think ahead.
And lastly, I didn't criticize this captain. I stated at the very beginning I'm interested in hearing as to whether a proper and thorough brief of taxi expectations and clearance were done. Doing so is SOP. It's routine (or should be). That isn't 'idealism" as you put it, it's professionalism and is only one of the many things we're paid to do.
It sounds to me like you don't bother with briefing the taxi route/clearance. Is it not that important to you or just don't think it's needed? Do you even recognize it's importance?
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It gets worse.
Wisr. Seriously? As I understand it, getting to the runway is considered a necessary routine part of any flight and part of pilots training, and something planes are designed for. I believe double engine failures are outside most expectations. Hence sensible to brief the taxi. Your post seems to imply you don't consider a taxi briefing necessary, and as appropriate as briefing for hypothetical 1 in a billion events.
The poster didn't suggest briefing for any eventuality. They suggested briefing for a known necessary part of the flight, which your colleagues have said is the most dangerous part at night, so that seems sensible does it not? Maybe it's time you start doing a taxi briefing....or if you really think you can't fly to JNB without an unacceptable risk of killing people, then don't. It sounds like some here are as scared of taxiing as the Asiana crew were of visual approaches.
Surely the crew had briefed well enough to know there was a turn in that area? If I crash a car into another car, injure or kill people, and say 'the signs weren't good enough', you know what, they don't care, I get jail time. This guy won't, and shouldn't, but, just understand, you're not being picked on. I think some of us just want to know pilots take this king of thing seriously, and most of you do, it's just scary some don't, that's all.
I spent the last 2 years living in the Pacific working on shipping, and if you think your navaids are bad, try steering into a Pacific port in a barely seaworthy boat, in a storm. And if it sinks, the captain, in the unlikely event he lives, certainly doesn't get another go. Deal with your responsibility, you earn more than 5% (probably more) of people in Britain, doing a job I assume you chose to do, rather than one you are forced to do like most people.
Wisr. Seriously? As I understand it, getting to the runway is considered a necessary routine part of any flight and part of pilots training, and something planes are designed for. I believe double engine failures are outside most expectations. Hence sensible to brief the taxi. Your post seems to imply you don't consider a taxi briefing necessary, and as appropriate as briefing for hypothetical 1 in a billion events.
The poster didn't suggest briefing for any eventuality. They suggested briefing for a known necessary part of the flight, which your colleagues have said is the most dangerous part at night, so that seems sensible does it not? Maybe it's time you start doing a taxi briefing....or if you really think you can't fly to JNB without an unacceptable risk of killing people, then don't. It sounds like some here are as scared of taxiing as the Asiana crew were of visual approaches.
Surely the crew had briefed well enough to know there was a turn in that area? If I crash a car into another car, injure or kill people, and say 'the signs weren't good enough', you know what, they don't care, I get jail time. This guy won't, and shouldn't, but, just understand, you're not being picked on. I think some of us just want to know pilots take this king of thing seriously, and most of you do, it's just scary some don't, that's all.
I spent the last 2 years living in the Pacific working on shipping, and if you think your navaids are bad, try steering into a Pacific port in a barely seaworthy boat, in a storm. And if it sinks, the captain, in the unlikely event he lives, certainly doesn't get another go. Deal with your responsibility, you earn more than 5% (probably more) of people in Britain, doing a job I assume you chose to do, rather than one you are forced to do like most people.
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I had a look on Google Maps at the area, and also at the photo (equivalent to Street View
). In daylight I don't think I'd make the mistake, but depending on lights, I could well see making an error in the dark. When I'm in my car I tend to check out new routes in advance, but sometimes I still go wrong if I miss a landmark even if I'm looking for it, or if a signpost doesn't actually say what I expect and so go past it (that was last month). I tend to realise fairly quickly that it's happened, but I don't think the crew had that much time.
Even if you're briefed, it's quite possible to miss something when you're unfamiliar with the route, especially with lots of other stuff going on at the same time. It wouldn't surprise me to find that there was a distraction in the cockpit at the critical moment approaching the turn.
). In daylight I don't think I'd make the mistake, but depending on lights, I could well see making an error in the dark. When I'm in my car I tend to check out new routes in advance, but sometimes I still go wrong if I miss a landmark even if I'm looking for it, or if a signpost doesn't actually say what I expect and so go past it (that was last month). I tend to realise fairly quickly that it's happened, but I don't think the crew had that much time.Even if you're briefed, it's quite possible to miss something when you're unfamiliar with the route, especially with lots of other stuff going on at the same time. It wouldn't surprise me to find that there was a distraction in the cockpit at the critical moment approaching the turn.
When you're identifying threats in a brief, you're prioritizing things to maintain vigilance for once you get going, and "unfamiliarity" is one of these things and a well-known and talked-about threat. So is bad signage, so is weather that could obscure identifiers like the lines and markings (snow packed surfaces, standing water, fog, etc etc) causing you to get lost. The stakes are high, much higher than a super-pranged wing, a runway incursion being the most obvious. In this accident, people in that building could have easily been killed.
You can't really equate briefing yourself on your route in a car to this. Missing your turn-off in a car and having to go back is not the same thing as inadvertently winding up on a runway under a landing or rolling-out aircraft in the dark (or this incident). If those were the stakes when you checked your route in a car, where missing your turn means not simply turning around in embarrassment but being T-boned by a truck killing everyone or driving off a cliff, you would check your route, check your progress a LOT more strictly along the way, and slow down at the first hint of doubt as to where you are.
Part of airmanship is managing distractions and maintaining priorities sometimes by adjusting what can be adjusted (delaying a checklist, telling someone to stby, etc) as necessary. It's what we do.
You can't really equate briefing yourself on your route in a car to this. Missing your turn-off in a car and having to go back is not the same thing as inadvertently winding up on a runway under a landing or rolling-out aircraft in the dark (or this incident). If those were the stakes when you checked your route in a car, where missing your turn means not simply turning around in embarrassment but being T-boned by a truck killing everyone or driving off a cliff, you would check your route, check your progress a LOT more strictly along the way, and slow down at the first hint of doubt as to where you are.
Part of airmanship is managing distractions and maintaining priorities sometimes by adjusting what can be adjusted (delaying a checklist, telling someone to stby, etc) as necessary. It's what we do.
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Question from an outsider; The raised bank by the fence that is visible in the daylight pic from post #50 seems to be strewn with a lot of debris. It also appears from the other photos that the outboard engine may have been in close proximity to this area. Is it likely that the engine will have ingested and potentially have been damaged by any of that?
Thanks.
Thanks.
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Part of airmanship is managing distractions and maintaining priorities sometimes by adjusting what can be adjusted (delaying a checklist, telling someone to stby, etc) as necessary. It's what we do.
When taxiing in the dark, what sort of view does the aircraft lights give of what's off to the side of the taxiway in front? Or does it pretty much just show the area immediately in front of the aircraft (especially high up in a 747). Also, from how far away are the red runway signs visible, especially in the presence of other lighting? It looks very small and low down in that picture.
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I'm assuming that the building didn't have any obstacle lights?
If this is the case, then the crew might have been alerted of the
wing tip clearance and consequently they were down the wrong
taxiway.
It seems that the crew are partly to blame for this incident (pending the official report) but everyone makes mistakes and good airport infrastructure is needed to safeguard any errors made.
If this is the case, then the crew might have been alerted of the
wing tip clearance and consequently they were down the wrong
taxiway.
It seems that the crew are partly to blame for this incident (pending the official report) but everyone makes mistakes and good airport infrastructure is needed to safeguard any errors made.
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"Anyone operating into less-than-ideal airports KNOWS it may be substandard to what we're used to seeing in the 1st world and considers things like lack of or poor signage and markings a threat, and is discussed just like bad weather, terrain, etc. A proper brief will discuss the taxi route and (in this case) the"
Nonsense, O R Tambo is as good as a first world airport.
Nonsense, O R Tambo is as good as a first world airport.
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I've heard the towing story is a rumour only.
Other rumour is that BA normally taxi on A, but had been parked in an unusual spot for them on the night in question, necessitating B.
Other rumour is that BA normally taxi on A, but had been parked in an unusual spot for them on the night in question, necessitating B.
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To all the folk on this thread who have never been in command of a jumbo operating in Africa at night but still want to give us all the benefit of their total inexperience .......
Merry Christmas to you!
Merry Christmas to you!
Way back in the late '70s, a BA Tristar followed the 'yellows' at Luqa one night!
We only found out when the Met Man rang up to say that the observer was just about to report "sky obscured" when the wing moved on - it was very dark!
A substitute crew took the a/c out!
Iirc this was the first time a Tristar had been to the airport - it was meant to be a proving flight!
We only found out when the Met Man rang up to say that the observer was just about to report "sky obscured" when the wing moved on - it was very dark!
A substitute crew took the a/c out!
Iirc this was the first time a Tristar had been to the airport - it was meant to be a proving flight!