British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
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Wisden..
Not really Cricket, old chap!
Perhaps you will learn a little wisdom as, and if you grow up.
Not really Cricket, old chap!
Perhaps you will learn a little wisdom as, and if you grow up.
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Calmcavok, you are certainly correct. I have long viewed surface operations, particularly at night in weather, as the most challenging and dangerous aspect of flight operations.
It is still staggering to me that with all the technological developments in aviation over the decades, most surface navigation is still done by a piece of paper (taxi chart), a compass, and some very rudimentary signage.
Maps showing own ship position are certainly a big help, but are limited in Part 25 aircraft to either a design into the avionics suite or a Class III EFB.
There are runway/taxiway advisement tools from Honeywell's RAAS system. And in the future (I have seen it/taxied with it in a 777 sim) taxi clearance delivered by CPDLC and shown on the moving map display. "Follow the magenta line".
And certainly ATC tools (particularly with ASDE-X) could be programmed to alert ATC personnel to not just possible conflicts or incursions, but inappropriate taxiway and/or runway use by aircraft type/class (Think Comair Lexington Ky.).
Unfortunately, it will take money and mandates to make this happen sooner than later.
It is still staggering to me that with all the technological developments in aviation over the decades, most surface navigation is still done by a piece of paper (taxi chart), a compass, and some very rudimentary signage.
Maps showing own ship position are certainly a big help, but are limited in Part 25 aircraft to either a design into the avionics suite or a Class III EFB.
There are runway/taxiway advisement tools from Honeywell's RAAS system. And in the future (I have seen it/taxied with it in a 777 sim) taxi clearance delivered by CPDLC and shown on the moving map display. "Follow the magenta line".
And certainly ATC tools (particularly with ASDE-X) could be programmed to alert ATC personnel to not just possible conflicts or incursions, but inappropriate taxiway and/or runway use by aircraft type/class (Think Comair Lexington Ky.).
Unfortunately, it will take money and mandates to make this happen sooner than later.
Shore Guy
From memory Joburg doesn't have centreline green taxy way lights - only blue edge lights. I'm very much in the "there but for the grace of God" camp. In fact I believe aircraft have previously taken the wrong route. It's worth considering it is poorly lit down there and the taxyway veers left ie by keeping straight you will end up in the maintenance area by default. The photo at post 109 makes it look easy but it isn't, IMHO, at night.
From memory Joburg doesn't have centreline green taxy way lights - only blue edge lights. I'm very much in the "there but for the grace of God" camp. In fact I believe aircraft have previously taken the wrong route. It's worth considering it is poorly lit down there and the taxyway veers left ie by keeping straight you will end up in the maintenance area by default. The photo at post 109 makes it look easy but it isn't, IMHO, at night.
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Wisden, I am just a lowly PPL/IR in progress guy. I make a mistake every time I fly. Luckily, my mistakes so far have been relatively trivial (overshooting a frequency when tuning a radio, giving out a wrong call sign by transposing numbers, reading something back incorrectly in a clearance, taxiing a bit off the "centrelines", being a bit off the centreline when I land etc). I try to accumulate knowledge about mistakes and not make them again but there is unfortunately some repetition.
I fully expect to make a big mistake at least once in the pursuit of my hobby. I really hope that it doesn't kill me. If it does, it won't be because I am cavalier in my approach to flying.
Professional pilots are also human and they will also make mistakes. Their mistakes will be less frequent and less consequential than mine as they are professionals and I am only an amateur but they will still make them.
Finally, I think that BA, KAL, AF and SWA pilots (as well as everyone else) will make mistakes in roughly similar proportions per 100,000 hours flown no matter what equipment they fly. There is an amount of randomness to the consequences of those mistakes. The incident in Joburg might be a bit of "catch up" in the randomness of consequences.
I fully expect to make a big mistake at least once in the pursuit of my hobby. I really hope that it doesn't kill me. If it does, it won't be because I am cavalier in my approach to flying.
Professional pilots are also human and they will also make mistakes. Their mistakes will be less frequent and less consequential than mine as they are professionals and I am only an amateur but they will still make them.
Finally, I think that BA, KAL, AF and SWA pilots (as well as everyone else) will make mistakes in roughly similar proportions per 100,000 hours flown no matter what equipment they fly. There is an amount of randomness to the consequences of those mistakes. The incident in Joburg might be a bit of "catch up" in the randomness of consequences.
Plumbum Pendular
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For those of you who want to hang the pilots (WW I am thinking of you) I suggest that you try to understand what a just culture is:
https://www.justculture.org/what-is-.../#.Uri5rXkte7w
https://www.justculture.org/what-is-.../#.Uri5rXkte7w
Thank you both for clarifying that burying the outer wing in a building was not an intentional act on the part of the crew.
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I don't fly for BA but have flown the same type out of JNB and will do so again in a week or so.
For the trolls and those who are quick to criticize, get a life as I'm guessing you have never flown or have never made a mistake.
For myself, without criticizing I can't understand how the crew ended up where they did, but I can wait for the investigations to be publicized and perhaps we will all learn a thing or two.
My sympathy to the crew involved.
For the trolls and those who are quick to criticize, get a life as I'm guessing you have never flown or have never made a mistake.
For myself, without criticizing I can't understand how the crew ended up where they did, but I can wait for the investigations to be publicized and perhaps we will all learn a thing or two.
My sympathy to the crew involved.
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WW,
You must be some kind of flying genius and certainly don't belong on a flight deck but in charge of worldwide aviation safety. I've taken wrong taxi-ways about 6 times in 15 years of commercial flying thankfully without incident. I would hazard a guess they were distracted and will hold their hands up and say they screwed up. On most wide-bodied aircraft it is difficult to see the wing tip and even if you can, it is harder to gauge if it will impact on something. It doesn't make them incompetent, it makes them human like the rest of us. The Skipper I would imagine has a great deal more experience than you and doesn't hold his position through luck or good fortune.
I suggest you engage your brain in future before writing such condemning passage.
You must be some kind of flying genius and certainly don't belong on a flight deck but in charge of worldwide aviation safety. I've taken wrong taxi-ways about 6 times in 15 years of commercial flying thankfully without incident. I would hazard a guess they were distracted and will hold their hands up and say they screwed up. On most wide-bodied aircraft it is difficult to see the wing tip and even if you can, it is harder to gauge if it will impact on something. It doesn't make them incompetent, it makes them human like the rest of us. The Skipper I would imagine has a great deal more experience than you and doesn't hold his position through luck or good fortune.
I suggest you engage your brain in future before writing such condemning passage.
The world we live in is far from perfect, errors of judgement will be made and its important to modify the way things are done as a result, thats called continuous improvement or progress. BUT, its important not to forget that ultimately the buck stops with the PIC, it is ultimately the captains responsibility, end of. There seems to be an undercurrent of "blame the circumstances not the crew", i'm sorry it doesnt work like that. Aviation safety is so high because of the fear of what will happen to the individual if he/she does something wrong. Its a superb motivator to maintain standards. Yes, there are circumstances and events beyond the crews control but has already been stated on here, there is NO excuse for a taxiing prang.
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That of course Private Jet is perfectly true but airline safety is a constant evolution based on incidents and I have no doubt that steps will be taken at Joburg to ensure that this excursion is not repeated.
I haven't been there for over 20 years but isn't there even a sign at the junction saying: << 03L ?
or a sign on M saying 'Geen Nigels'
There but for the grace etc and, yes, I do appreciate that BA is not one of the more popular targets on Prune and would agree that, had it been one of those, they'd be getting even more stick.
Last flew that one in '91.
or a sign on M saying 'Geen Nigels'
There but for the grace etc and, yes, I do appreciate that BA is not one of the more popular targets on Prune and would agree that, had it been one of those, they'd be getting even more stick.
Last flew that one in '91.
Irrespective of how the fare was paid, did Mrs. Oxfam expect that she, a 'Premium' Economy pax.should disembark before 'ordinary' Economy pax? If so why is she complaining that F/C pax.were disembarked before her ? She would probably have had her head down on her 'phone anyway, holding people up. There was no immediate emergency, apparently, so what was her rush ?
I was once co-pilot on a 707 at JFK ( New York ) when the skipper took the wrong taxiway, no problem, he said, keep your feet on the floor and DON'T touch the brakes, and he promptly put two engines into reverse and did a three point turn ! Neat.
I was once co-pilot on a 707 at JFK ( New York ) when the skipper took the wrong taxiway, no problem, he said, keep your feet on the floor and DON'T touch the brakes, and he promptly put two engines into reverse and did a three point turn ! Neat.
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 23rd Dec 2013 at 22:50.
Yes the Captain is responsible - well we all know that, don't we?
But if a football team loses 30 goals to nil, you wouldn't blame it all on the goalkeeper would you?
My question to ww, Private Jet and the like - are you perfect? No, I didn't think so. So who are you to judge imperfection?
But if a football team loses 30 goals to nil, you wouldn't blame it all on the goalkeeper would you?
My question to ww, Private Jet and the like - are you perfect? No, I didn't think so. So who are you to judge imperfection?
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"Cut these lads a little slack, amateurs they are not, and the results of their efforts splashed across the papers was certainly not their intention when they reported for duty. Next time, draw breath and review, before clicking 'Post Reply'. We may think more of you..."
Grimacing tosh......building hit, 744 written off.....careers in flitters.....next please
Grimacing tosh......building hit, 744 written off.....careers in flitters.....next please
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A wise old check Captain told me on my Left seat qualification, boy if you hit something, whether your on the taxi line or not, you still hit something and it's your fault. Sage words.
In the past a B747 in Cardiff being marshalled into parking position that carved thru the terminal but stopping short of an I-beam. First incident/accident in a 40 year career for that Captain and he stopped because the S/O opened that roof hatch, saw the wingtip in the Terminal and yelled STOP! Marshaller hadn't heard or considered wingtip gain.
I am sure the pilots are embarrassed, however we can all sympathize with how close we all have come to contacting something whilst moving metal on the ground and didn't know it, as we had missed.
In the past a B747 in Cardiff being marshalled into parking position that carved thru the terminal but stopping short of an I-beam. First incident/accident in a 40 year career for that Captain and he stopped because the S/O opened that roof hatch, saw the wingtip in the Terminal and yelled STOP! Marshaller hadn't heard or considered wingtip gain.
I am sure the pilots are embarrassed, however we can all sympathize with how close we all have come to contacting something whilst moving metal on the ground and didn't know it, as we had missed.
Wisden Wonder,
Stick to cricket.
Hands up ANYONE who hasn't, in their professional life, made some mistake at some time ? Of couse, some are more significant than others.
gasbag1 - we must have flown with the same Captain ! He also told me that regardless of how I flew the aircraft, as a Captain I must always be aware that any action I ever took could be fully justified At The Subsequent Court Of Inquiry ! Never a truer statement.
Long story that I have told and won't repeat now, concerning New York JFK. Briefly, we sank into a soft spot in the tarmac whilst moving up, and holding, in sequence for take-off. The eventual JFK report said that there was no hole in their Real Estate, and quote - " the pilot must have left the paved surface" ! We were on the centre line of a wide runway being used as a taxiway that night, and fortunately our ground crew could confirm that, JFK had also rushed out and filled in the hole !
Stick to cricket.
Hands up ANYONE who hasn't, in their professional life, made some mistake at some time ? Of couse, some are more significant than others.
gasbag1 - we must have flown with the same Captain ! He also told me that regardless of how I flew the aircraft, as a Captain I must always be aware that any action I ever took could be fully justified At The Subsequent Court Of Inquiry ! Never a truer statement.
Long story that I have told and won't repeat now, concerning New York JFK. Briefly, we sank into a soft spot in the tarmac whilst moving up, and holding, in sequence for take-off. The eventual JFK report said that there was no hole in their Real Estate, and quote - " the pilot must have left the paved surface" ! We were on the centre line of a wide runway being used as a taxiway that night, and fortunately our ground crew could confirm that, JFK had also rushed out and filled in the hole !
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Ok, I'm actually getting a bit angry now with all this 'sincerest condolences to the crew' posts. From a safety point of view, I'm concerned that every time BA have an incident, everyone comes rushing to say 'mistakes happen', 'sympathies for the crew'. That worries me. This is a mistake that could kill someone, and could well have killed more than Asiana. Asiana won't fly again, are you saying this guy should just because he was lucky? Yes people make mistakes,but what if a mistake is a reflection of a personality trait that could cause a bigger problem later? That's why sometimes people should be fired for mistakes. Just as any normal person is if they do something that shows they might do something that kills people in the course of their job. This person would have killed people if the top floor had had people. Killedd. Stop being sociopaths and see that's actually pretty serious. If your family were there and this guy killed them, would you be so generous?
Some people have actually been injured, maybe that's where your condolences should lie. People probably a lot poorer and with less people to stand up for them than the cockpit crew - if their injuries were to stop them working for instance it could mean serious hardship. I doubt the pilots have to worry about that. As I said, if anyone had been on that top floor they'd be DEAD. I've seen people say this has been sensationalised, on another forum someone got upset because a paper described it as a 'crash' into a building. You know what, if a bus hits a bridge, it's a crash, if a train slowly bumps another, it's described as a crash. And if a bus driver comes off the road and hits a building, without another vehicle interfering, he gets sacked. I'm tired of pilots making excuses. Pilots get paid much more than bus or train drivers (BA ones at least) because they have RESPONSIBILITY. Yes BA pilots, you are well paid, and with that expected not to demolish buildings, if you don't like being held responsible for nearly killing people, and expect to be able to do it and keep your job, get another job. Yes, we need a positive safety culture, but that doesn't mean a pilot can get away with anything.
I wouldn't judge this case, but were it for the cowling incident, when all the old boys told us how hard it is to check the latches, how time pressure meant they couldn't fit in a proper walk around, and apparently it's beyond a BA pilot to bend down. I've been on several A320s since and seen the captain bend down and check the latches, and it took all of 1 second. Maybe they have stronger trousers.
Sorry, but after seeing the difference in the reaction after the Asiana crash, I find it upsetting, as a Brit born and bred, to see the obvious racism/looking after our own in the reactions.
Some people have actually been injured, maybe that's where your condolences should lie. People probably a lot poorer and with less people to stand up for them than the cockpit crew - if their injuries were to stop them working for instance it could mean serious hardship. I doubt the pilots have to worry about that. As I said, if anyone had been on that top floor they'd be DEAD. I've seen people say this has been sensationalised, on another forum someone got upset because a paper described it as a 'crash' into a building. You know what, if a bus hits a bridge, it's a crash, if a train slowly bumps another, it's described as a crash. And if a bus driver comes off the road and hits a building, without another vehicle interfering, he gets sacked. I'm tired of pilots making excuses. Pilots get paid much more than bus or train drivers (BA ones at least) because they have RESPONSIBILITY. Yes BA pilots, you are well paid, and with that expected not to demolish buildings, if you don't like being held responsible for nearly killing people, and expect to be able to do it and keep your job, get another job. Yes, we need a positive safety culture, but that doesn't mean a pilot can get away with anything.
I wouldn't judge this case, but were it for the cowling incident, when all the old boys told us how hard it is to check the latches, how time pressure meant they couldn't fit in a proper walk around, and apparently it's beyond a BA pilot to bend down. I've been on several A320s since and seen the captain bend down and check the latches, and it took all of 1 second. Maybe they have stronger trousers.
Sorry, but after seeing the difference in the reaction after the Asiana crash, I find it upsetting, as a Brit born and bred, to see the obvious racism/looking after our own in the reactions.
Last edited by neila83; 24th Dec 2013 at 00:03.
