British Airways Incident at Johannesburg
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If it is any consolation to the BA pilots, they are the fourth aircraft to have made this mistake.
Many narrowbodies have fallen into the trap over the years, widebodies normally use the other taxiway so this was the first 744, hence the first time it has caused more than a few red faces.
daylight pictures v night
looking at the taxiway photos taken in the daytime the lack of sign-age and markings are obvious and looks non-existent ?
but the major taxiway then leads sharp left onto the runway (then it goes straight on if you miss the left turn immediately narrowing with building obstructions for heavies)
a poster has mentioned 4 such deviations have happened before (no idea over what time period)
make it night-time with rain and unless you are creeping along and totally familiar with this honey trap then of course it will happen...if it might happen then it will happen one day.
most European pax wide-body/747 operators have for over 30 years or more departed JNB always at night and not in daylight so pilots will never see this trap in daylight and become familiar.
Does BA JNB SOP's make a special note to pilots about this taxiway?
even if a caution is on the airfield plate a big problem like this perhaps should be on an Airlines own SOP for that airport - BA have sometimes 3 flights a night out of JNB
really feel sorry for the guys involved here - and trust the matter is dealt with sensibly on all sides.
but the major taxiway then leads sharp left onto the runway (then it goes straight on if you miss the left turn immediately narrowing with building obstructions for heavies)
a poster has mentioned 4 such deviations have happened before (no idea over what time period)
make it night-time with rain and unless you are creeping along and totally familiar with this honey trap then of course it will happen...if it might happen then it will happen one day.
most European pax wide-body/747 operators have for over 30 years or more departed JNB always at night and not in daylight so pilots will never see this trap in daylight and become familiar.
Does BA JNB SOP's make a special note to pilots about this taxiway?
even if a caution is on the airfield plate a big problem like this perhaps should be on an Airlines own SOP for that airport - BA have sometimes 3 flights a night out of JNB
really feel sorry for the guys involved here - and trust the matter is dealt with sensibly on all sides.
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I have been following this thread with some interest because of my experiences at what was then the new Jeddah airport during the initial few weeks of operation in early 1981. Although my area was nav aids, radio, radar etc, I would occasionally sit supping tea with the controllers, particularly late in the evenings if I had been working late.
One evening an arriving B707 of an African airline was given instructions to taxi to a specific stand. After a while, the controller called the aircraft to see where he was and received the reply to the effect he was on his way to the stand. This happened a few times and eventually the controller asked me to have a look out of the tower to see if the aircraft was at the stand (which was on the opposite side of the tower from the controller).
No aircraft in sight. Eventually, after approximately half an hour, the pilot reported he was now on stand. During that half hour, the controller was telling me how a few airlines were having trouble with the taxiway lighting. Apparently, the old airport had used centreline lighting and the new one was using edge marking (or something along those lines). In the first few days of operation both BA and Swissair had had to request tugs to pull them back from the brink of doom and back onto the taxiway centre. They had followed the lighting, assuming it was the centre line they were following and found it was in fact the edge and they had just managed to stop short of falling down the rather large concrete monsoon drains.
The next day, coming up the steps to the tower to work, I was met with a pilot from the African airline being walked down the steps with a Saudi Air Force guard hanging on each arm, obviously under arrest. I went up to the tower and asked my friend from the previous evening what was going on. He said "Remember the B707 that took half an hour to park last night?" Yes. "Well go and have a look at it over by the maintenance area". The aircraft had scraped wings, buggered engines etc and looked as if it had really been in the wars.
Apparently, the pilot got lost on the taxi to the stand and had driven into one of these monsoon drains. Rather than admit a colossal cock-up, he forced the aircraft out of the drain and trundled around the airport until he found the stand. Nobody reported anything until the following morning when people turned up for the return flight! The most vivid memory I have of that incident was the image of the pilot being escorted away. He had the biggest grin I have ever seen on a face, from ear to ear!
One evening an arriving B707 of an African airline was given instructions to taxi to a specific stand. After a while, the controller called the aircraft to see where he was and received the reply to the effect he was on his way to the stand. This happened a few times and eventually the controller asked me to have a look out of the tower to see if the aircraft was at the stand (which was on the opposite side of the tower from the controller).
No aircraft in sight. Eventually, after approximately half an hour, the pilot reported he was now on stand. During that half hour, the controller was telling me how a few airlines were having trouble with the taxiway lighting. Apparently, the old airport had used centreline lighting and the new one was using edge marking (or something along those lines). In the first few days of operation both BA and Swissair had had to request tugs to pull them back from the brink of doom and back onto the taxiway centre. They had followed the lighting, assuming it was the centre line they were following and found it was in fact the edge and they had just managed to stop short of falling down the rather large concrete monsoon drains.
The next day, coming up the steps to the tower to work, I was met with a pilot from the African airline being walked down the steps with a Saudi Air Force guard hanging on each arm, obviously under arrest. I went up to the tower and asked my friend from the previous evening what was going on. He said "Remember the B707 that took half an hour to park last night?" Yes. "Well go and have a look at it over by the maintenance area". The aircraft had scraped wings, buggered engines etc and looked as if it had really been in the wars.
Apparently, the pilot got lost on the taxi to the stand and had driven into one of these monsoon drains. Rather than admit a colossal cock-up, he forced the aircraft out of the drain and trundled around the airport until he found the stand. Nobody reported anything until the following morning when people turned up for the return flight! The most vivid memory I have of that incident was the image of the pilot being escorted away. He had the biggest grin I have ever seen on a face, from ear to ear!
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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Originally Posted by rog747
Does BA JNB SOP's make a special note to pilots about this taxiway?
even if a caution is on the airfield plate a big problem like this perhaps should be on an Airlines own SOP for that airport - BA have sometimes 3 flights a night out of JNB
even if a caution is on the airfield plate a big problem like this perhaps should be on an Airlines own SOP for that airport - BA have sometimes 3 flights a night out of JNB
for BOAC esq
yes, am surprised at over 300 posts no one has hinted
new here?
lol
no i am not new here at all - and i normally read all the threads before i post (usually well into the night) and had seen post 284 as well but thanks to BOAC for the heads up again,
this is a very unfortunate event - but also is most interesting -
which will no doubt our colleagues, both working and like me now retired, are keen to follow as to why this incident occurred and to help alleviate further occurrences as is the quest of good investigation
no i am not new here at all - and i normally read all the threads before i post (usually well into the night) and had seen post 284 as well but thanks to BOAC for the heads up again,
this is a very unfortunate event - but also is most interesting -
which will no doubt our colleagues, both working and like me now retired, are keen to follow as to why this incident occurred and to help alleviate further occurrences as is the quest of good investigation
Jeddah 1981
@ KelvinD
When new Jeddah opened, there were a lot of taxiway lights that didn't work.
Saudia had a few mishaps off the high speed on (then) 34R.
One 737 incident was so subtle, they didn't discover it until the next morning.
When new Jeddah opened, there were a lot of taxiway lights that didn't work.
Saudia had a few mishaps off the high speed on (then) 34R.
One 737 incident was so subtle, they didn't discover it until the next morning.
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Would flt deck be breathalised after this accident?
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OK, I'll grant that its is easy to miss a turn on a taxiway...but they hit a building. They hit a building. Get it? 
I would assume this crew was fairly experienced and that this wasn't their first rodeo at JoBurg...and my judgment is from the standpoint of a current 747 pilot (with actual windows where I sit, with four landing lights, two turnoff lights and two taxi lights).
These guys don't need apologists and a hug. They need some time off without pay.
What the devil is our profession sinking into? I guess we're not above reflecting today's society. again.
I would assume this crew was fairly experienced and that this wasn't their first rodeo at JoBurg...and my judgment is from the standpoint of a current 747 pilot (with actual windows where I sit, with four landing lights, two turnoff lights and two taxi lights).
These guys don't need apologists and a hug. They need some time off without pay.
What the devil is our profession sinking into? I guess we're not above reflecting today's society.
again.
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Yea right
How do they see their wingtip ?
How do they see an unlit building on a dark night ?
Have you any idea how dark it is there at night ?
And, for that matter, what idiot put a building close enough to a taxiway for the biggest aircraft using the field to hit it.
This was a trap with big teeth just waiting to bite.
How do they see their wingtip ?
How do they see an unlit building on a dark night ?
Have you any idea how dark it is there at night ?
And, for that matter, what idiot put a building close enough to a taxiway for the biggest aircraft using the field to hit it.
This was a trap with big teeth just waiting to bite.
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FB41
Been to JNB many times myself over the years in BA latterly as P1 on the B744.
I think it is clear to everyone that the flight crew (backstop the captain) on the day were ultimately resposible.
However, given that they didn't intend to taxi into the building, what will benefit pilots, companies, airport authorities, and regulators around the world will not be the fact that the crew took the wrong route that night, but what the contributary factors were.
They could include, but not be limited to :
company induced distractions (loadsheet mesages)
poor briefing techniques possibly resulting from
poor material quality/detail from chart providers
non standard/inadequate airfield signage,
poor taxiway lighting
non-optimal atc monitoring/equipment,
[add others factors as required]
Very few things in aviation are black and white, I doubt that this incident is either. Best let the appropriate authorities (hopefully with a substantial UK AAIB role in it*) report before throwing pilots to the wolves.
(*) UK AAIB as we all desire a report that is impartial and factual, and they have a worldwide reputation for doing just that
Been to JNB many times myself over the years in BA latterly as P1 on the B744.
I think it is clear to everyone that the flight crew (backstop the captain) on the day were ultimately resposible.
However, given that they didn't intend to taxi into the building, what will benefit pilots, companies, airport authorities, and regulators around the world will not be the fact that the crew took the wrong route that night, but what the contributary factors were.
They could include, but not be limited to :
company induced distractions (loadsheet mesages)
poor briefing techniques possibly resulting from
poor material quality/detail from chart providers
non standard/inadequate airfield signage,
poor taxiway lighting
non-optimal atc monitoring/equipment,
[add others factors as required]
Very few things in aviation are black and white, I doubt that this incident is either. Best let the appropriate authorities (hopefully with a substantial UK AAIB role in it*) report before throwing pilots to the wolves.
(*) UK AAIB as we all desire a report that is impartial and factual, and they have a worldwide reputation for doing just that
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Hmm - the SA CAA are a very capable bunch who always do a good investigation. As good as the UK AAIB with no punches are pulled.
OTOH on this occasion we must question their role in not enforcing better safety standards at JNB. A review of lighting and signage at all SA airports is long overdue.
OTOH on this occasion we must question their role in not enforcing better safety standards at JNB. A review of lighting and signage at all SA airports is long overdue.
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Taxiway B
I cannot understand why the BA 744 was on Taxiway B in the first place, because it serves the domestic terminal apron. Looking at the international terminal apron layout all aircraft ought to taxi straight on to Taxiway A and thence south to 03L or north to 27R.
Someone in ATC must have put the 744 on an oddball routing in to Taxiway B. Was A closed for some reason?
Someone in ATC must have put the 744 on an oddball routing in to Taxiway B. Was A closed for some reason?
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I don't believe in this case that the crew were ultimately responsible. In my opinion the lack of clear indication that it was unsafe to continue taxiing straight ahead was criminal negligence on the part of the airport authority.
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I cannot understand why the BA 744 was on Taxiway B in the first place, because it serves the domestic terminal apron. Looking at the international terminal apron layout all aircraft ought to taxi straight on to Taxiway A and thence south to 03L or north to 27R.
Someone in ATC must have put the 744 on an oddball routing in to Taxiway B. Was A closed for some reason?
Someone in ATC must have put the 744 on an oddball routing in to Taxiway B. Was A closed for some reason?
kungfu panda
I don't believe in this case that the crew were ultimately responsible. In my opinion the lack of clear indication that it was unsafe to continue taxiing straight ahead was criminal negligence on the part of the airport authority.
I don't believe in this case that the crew were ultimately responsible. In my opinion the lack of clear indication that it was unsafe to continue taxiing straight ahead was criminal negligence on the part of the airport authority.
Last edited by PukinDog; 29th Dec 2013 at 04:26.
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Post #207: "there are lights on the taxi line that take you around the corner. It may have been that the lights were off but it's not at all usual for them to be off at night time. I've taxied out there loads of times but I can't recall if taxiway M is light at night time. As far as I know M is only used by aircraft under tow."
Apparently, M has no lighting.
Have not found 4 cases of M being used by mistake
O3L threshold visible from B, before the left kink.
The building over 60 years old, before wide-bodies. Collision shear along line of windows - weak part of building.
The floodlights on hangars behind building would partially blind one to the presence of the low old building (floodlights visible in the passenger pics)
Apparently, M has no lighting.
Have not found 4 cases of M being used by mistake
O3L threshold visible from B, before the left kink.
The building over 60 years old, before wide-bodies. Collision shear along line of windows - weak part of building.
The floodlights on hangars behind building would partially blind one to the presence of the low old building (floodlights visible in the passenger pics)