Kabul Madness
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Condolences to all at Balmoral, their families and friends -
As foreigners and crew operating in a war zone such as Afganistan, DRC, Sudan etc.... we need to be constantly aware of the situation around us.
As in onetrack's story - you must not allow yourself to be put in danger like this ie: a minibus full of westerners stopped at a gas station (Apparently) by the side of the main road (Eight South Africans killed by suicide bomber on Kabul airport road (VIDEO) | GlobalPost)
I hope the lesson we all learn from this tradegy is pay attention ALL the time just like we do when we were flying - I know when you get in the crew bus it is normal to just sit back, relax and zone out, engaging in small chit chat while watching the city pass by - but in these countries you MUST keep situational awareness at ALL times.
All it would have taken to avoid this misery is to say to the driver NO - take us to the airport FIRST and then go back and refuel the bus - it's that simple.
May we all heed the lesson here to avoid future loss.
As foreigners and crew operating in a war zone such as Afganistan, DRC, Sudan etc.... we need to be constantly aware of the situation around us.
As in onetrack's story - you must not allow yourself to be put in danger like this ie: a minibus full of westerners stopped at a gas station (Apparently) by the side of the main road (Eight South Africans killed by suicide bomber on Kabul airport road (VIDEO) | GlobalPost)
I hope the lesson we all learn from this tradegy is pay attention ALL the time just like we do when we were flying - I know when you get in the crew bus it is normal to just sit back, relax and zone out, engaging in small chit chat while watching the city pass by - but in these countries you MUST keep situational awareness at ALL times.
All it would have taken to avoid this misery is to say to the driver NO - take us to the airport FIRST and then go back and refuel the bus - it's that simple.
May we all heed the lesson here to avoid future loss.
Last edited by Mobotu; 19th Sep 2012 at 09:17. Reason: Link
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My mood is very black in typing this reply, please allow me a few thoughts, before you flame me.
When working in Afghanistan, you try and keep a low profile, by driving what most of the masses drive. Toyota 4 Runners and 16 seaters. By driving in an up armoured vehicle, you make yourself that more identifiable.
It is now easy to appropriate blame and point fingers. I met the owner of Balmoral on a flight from Afghanistan, while working on contract, and a more passionate man who took care of his employees, you would not find. Seth(cannot remember his name)??, my sincerest condolences to your loss.
The biggest mistake that was made in my humble opinion, was for them to use a road daily at the same time. Their movements were predictable and easy to identify, they should have varied their routes and at different times. But this is all in hindsight.
May their families find peace in the fact that they were there to do good in the world, try and make a better living for their families and just make a difference. Before you have not been in the same situation, please do not even try to form an opinion, or throw stones.
R.I.P my fellow comrades
When working in Afghanistan, you try and keep a low profile, by driving what most of the masses drive. Toyota 4 Runners and 16 seaters. By driving in an up armoured vehicle, you make yourself that more identifiable.
It is now easy to appropriate blame and point fingers. I met the owner of Balmoral on a flight from Afghanistan, while working on contract, and a more passionate man who took care of his employees, you would not find. Seth(cannot remember his name)??, my sincerest condolences to your loss.
The biggest mistake that was made in my humble opinion, was for them to use a road daily at the same time. Their movements were predictable and easy to identify, they should have varied their routes and at different times. But this is all in hindsight.
May their families find peace in the fact that they were there to do good in the world, try and make a better living for their families and just make a difference. Before you have not been in the same situation, please do not even try to form an opinion, or throw stones.
R.I.P my fellow comrades
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An armoured vehicle would not help with the type of IED's used. Even an APC would have given little defense...unless it was a Casper.
My two cents worth on improvements ( and I am not saying none of these are currently in place with SA companies ) would be;
Move to the Dyncorp side of the airfield.
Move into the green village. You could use the back gate.
Move to Bagram.
Move to Khandahar.
Use local sedan transport. Split large groups.
Vary routes. Yes, there are only two...
Defensive driver training.
No travel in uniforms.
Spotter vehicles.
Ensure the drivers are not based at the compound and know little of the crew life within the compound.
Split the compound into smaller groups and at separate locations.
Heavy duty gates and mantrap areas.
Have razor wire / electric fences along all rear walls.
Use perimeter motion detection.
Panic siren and panic buttons accessible at all locations.
Safe areas secured with blast doors and armed security based within the secure area such as a roof.
Have access control to intermediate areas, especially entertainment / dinning where large groups gather at set times.
Employ a security manager who is separate to the business unit and can make independent calls.
Dis-associate yourself from the principle client and actively advertise that.
Screen local staff.
Adhere to all security advisories issued by the private security companies.
What is worrying is this seems like a planned and co-ordinated attack. I.E. this was not being at the wrong place at the wrong time. In other words, assume the worst and consider the compound to be the next target.
This now makes most of the civilian contractor compounds unsuitable. It is time to move asap.
Oh, and like when the weather is marginal, refuse to fly. If it's meant to be a black day.....it's black and cancel flights...
Please let lessons be learnt and practical solutions be implemented for those that decide to stay. As South Africans, we have become to desensitised to violence and in turn have become complacent.
For the rest, lets see the local aviation community in SA offer work to those guys who have young families and choose not to return.
Come on SAA, how about offering the contract guys a slot ?
My two cents worth on improvements ( and I am not saying none of these are currently in place with SA companies ) would be;
Move to the Dyncorp side of the airfield.
Move into the green village. You could use the back gate.
Move to Bagram.
Move to Khandahar.
Use local sedan transport. Split large groups.
Vary routes. Yes, there are only two...
Defensive driver training.
No travel in uniforms.
Spotter vehicles.
Ensure the drivers are not based at the compound and know little of the crew life within the compound.
Split the compound into smaller groups and at separate locations.
Heavy duty gates and mantrap areas.
Have razor wire / electric fences along all rear walls.
Use perimeter motion detection.
Panic siren and panic buttons accessible at all locations.
Safe areas secured with blast doors and armed security based within the secure area such as a roof.
Have access control to intermediate areas, especially entertainment / dinning where large groups gather at set times.
Employ a security manager who is separate to the business unit and can make independent calls.
Dis-associate yourself from the principle client and actively advertise that.
Screen local staff.
Adhere to all security advisories issued by the private security companies.
What is worrying is this seems like a planned and co-ordinated attack. I.E. this was not being at the wrong place at the wrong time. In other words, assume the worst and consider the compound to be the next target.
This now makes most of the civilian contractor compounds unsuitable. It is time to move asap.
Oh, and like when the weather is marginal, refuse to fly. If it's meant to be a black day.....it's black and cancel flights...
Please let lessons be learnt and practical solutions be implemented for those that decide to stay. As South Africans, we have become to desensitised to violence and in turn have become complacent.
For the rest, lets see the local aviation community in SA offer work to those guys who have young families and choose not to return.
Come on SAA, how about offering the contract guys a slot ?
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A up armoured vehicle would also not have protected them, i have photos of a VBED that hit a Dyncorp convoy in Herat in 2008, the car is toast.
Keep in mind, that they are speculating that she was in a car, that crashed into the SUV/ bus, with a force of that explosion it destroyed everything in the death acre ( doods akker). This was planned and executed with military precision. Look at the photos on news24.
The VBED's carry massive amounts of explosives and it is not the bang that kills, but more the force of the blast, that kills on impact.
Keep in mind, that they are speculating that she was in a car, that crashed into the SUV/ bus, with a force of that explosion it destroyed everything in the death acre ( doods akker). This was planned and executed with military precision. Look at the photos on news24.
The VBED's carry massive amounts of explosives and it is not the bang that kills, but more the force of the blast, that kills on impact.
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Disgusting Pictures IOL
Ok guys, here's a challenge to see if there is any brotherhood in the aviation community..... let's see if we even have any bark left in us...
The pictures on the Independent Online website are both inappropriate, disgusting, perverted and offensive to the memory of our friends.
This is does not even take into account the effect of the families and children involved.
So the challenge is;
1. Boycott all IOL products till the pictures are removed.
2. Everyone flood the pressombudsman @ ombudsman.org.za with a complaint regarding the pictures being offensive and inappropriate for publication.
3. To never purchase a copy of GQ magazine for the rest of your life.
The IOL group is part of News and Media, an international company. The subsidiaries to add to your hit list is;
Cape Times.
Business Report.
Cape Argus.
Daily News.
Independent on Saturday.
Mercury.
Star.
Sunday Independent.
GQ Mag.
To the guys of you that add those print media into the cargo hold, double check the paperwork, I am sure there is a problem with the load and it needs to be left on the apron.
So, lets see if a bunch of South Africans can actually organise a piss-up in a brewery....
The pictures on the Independent Online website are both inappropriate, disgusting, perverted and offensive to the memory of our friends.
This is does not even take into account the effect of the families and children involved.
So the challenge is;
1. Boycott all IOL products till the pictures are removed.
2. Everyone flood the pressombudsman @ ombudsman.org.za with a complaint regarding the pictures being offensive and inappropriate for publication.
3. To never purchase a copy of GQ magazine for the rest of your life.
The IOL group is part of News and Media, an international company. The subsidiaries to add to your hit list is;
Cape Times.
Business Report.
Cape Argus.
Daily News.
Independent on Saturday.
Mercury.
Star.
Sunday Independent.
GQ Mag.
To the guys of you that add those print media into the cargo hold, double check the paperwork, I am sure there is a problem with the load and it needs to be left on the apron.
So, lets see if a bunch of South Africans can actually organise a piss-up in a brewery....
Last edited by Golf_Seirra; 19th Sep 2012 at 10:31.
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BBC reporting Edinburgh woman killed
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The pictures have been pulled...
Thanks to those that bothered to send through an email...
I still feel that they should apologise and now help remove some of the images left on google.
I stand by the request regarding GQ......you should not be reading that junk unless your initials are LH.
Let them feel the pain of their poor decision....most of their publications are only good for use in a dodgy Afghan long-drop
Thanks to those that bothered to send through an email...
I still feel that they should apologise and now help remove some of the images left on google.
I stand by the request regarding GQ......you should not be reading that junk unless your initials are LH.
Let them feel the pain of their poor decision....most of their publications are only good for use in a dodgy Afghan long-drop
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The Department has consulted with the families of the deceased and hereby releases their names with permission from their families.
Christian Johannes Justus PRETORIUS, aged 30, Pretoria, Gauteng
Fraser Angus CAREY, aged 31, Johannesburg, Gauteng
Brandon Quinn BOOTH, aged 47 , Balgowan, KwaZulu-Natal
Johan Abraham VAN HUYSSTEEN, aged 31, Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape
Johan Frederick BOUCHAUD, aged 30, Johannesburg, Gauteng
Johannes Judenis HUMPHRIES, aged 65, Centurion, Gauteng
Steven LEONG, aged 31, Johannesburg, Gauteng
Jenny Margaret AYRIS,aged 46, Scotland, United Kingdom
From Avcom...
Christian Johannes Justus PRETORIUS, aged 30, Pretoria, Gauteng
Fraser Angus CAREY, aged 31, Johannesburg, Gauteng
Brandon Quinn BOOTH, aged 47 , Balgowan, KwaZulu-Natal
Johan Abraham VAN HUYSSTEEN, aged 31, Port Elizabeth, Eastern Cape
Johan Frederick BOUCHAUD, aged 30, Johannesburg, Gauteng
Johannes Judenis HUMPHRIES, aged 65, Centurion, Gauteng
Steven LEONG, aged 31, Johannesburg, Gauteng
Jenny Margaret AYRIS,aged 46, Scotland, United Kingdom
From Avcom...
Last edited by Golf_Seirra; 20th Sep 2012 at 05:19.
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There are always two points of view.....
In my opinion the salaries should be adleast between what Dyncorp pays and the helicopter chaps...i.e. $ 750 per day. Some have argued that the only reason SA based companies have got the contracts is because they are cheap. That certainly is not the case with Balmoral.
There is a lot of fat in their contract which will more than likely have to be spent on alternative accommodation. With regard to NAC around $375 and Solenta at about $300, the figures do not add up. NAC are offering $225 ( captains we are talking here ) for Yemen.
It seems the contracting company bean counters have got together and had a round table discussion on reducing salaries. It is high time the guys stick together and do a mine workers strike. If people are going to go back to Afghan, you better make sure it's going to keep the wife smiling. I also suggest companies rethink the 3 x annual salary life payout.
At $ 400 per day on a 6/6 rotation, that only makes it R 48,000 per month on month salary. Certainly not worth it for the risk considering what you can take home at SAX if you can get in.
Our first priority is to open up the local market and second is to make it clear to companies that as professionals, we deserve a fair salary.
There are certainly just as many other dodgy spots where SA companies operate and security risk assessment needs to be more than just IED's or suicide attacks.
Yes, people will undercut, pay for ratings and generally stab each other in the back, but we need to find some common ground and learn from this sad event.
Anyway, fire away.....just my two cents worth....
In my opinion the salaries should be adleast between what Dyncorp pays and the helicopter chaps...i.e. $ 750 per day. Some have argued that the only reason SA based companies have got the contracts is because they are cheap. That certainly is not the case with Balmoral.
There is a lot of fat in their contract which will more than likely have to be spent on alternative accommodation. With regard to NAC around $375 and Solenta at about $300, the figures do not add up. NAC are offering $225 ( captains we are talking here ) for Yemen.
It seems the contracting company bean counters have got together and had a round table discussion on reducing salaries. It is high time the guys stick together and do a mine workers strike. If people are going to go back to Afghan, you better make sure it's going to keep the wife smiling. I also suggest companies rethink the 3 x annual salary life payout.
At $ 400 per day on a 6/6 rotation, that only makes it R 48,000 per month on month salary. Certainly not worth it for the risk considering what you can take home at SAX if you can get in.
Our first priority is to open up the local market and second is to make it clear to companies that as professionals, we deserve a fair salary.
There are certainly just as many other dodgy spots where SA companies operate and security risk assessment needs to be more than just IED's or suicide attacks.
Yes, people will undercut, pay for ratings and generally stab each other in the back, but we need to find some common ground and learn from this sad event.
Anyway, fire away.....just my two cents worth....
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Yeah-yeah
There is always some jerk off like "always flunking" telling pilots to return to RSA and to be loved by him and the industry even though there are no jobs.
Flunking just stay out of it, you are not here and your flatulent comments to '
"come home" go on wasted ears.
We don't need wet nursing as South Africans, but better security support.
One decides to fly here and gets employed or one decides and is rejected, you may be the latter.
This is not a pansy picnic.....but neither are the boys here pansies.
Leave us alone.
Flunking just stay out of it, you are not here and your flatulent comments to '
"come home" go on wasted ears.
We don't need wet nursing as South Africans, but better security support.
One decides to fly here and gets employed or one decides and is rejected, you may be the latter.
This is not a pansy picnic.....but neither are the boys here pansies.
Leave us alone.
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Sly comment? Do one, throbber. I've lost enough mates and colleagues doing this and come close to it myself more than once, so dry your eyes.
Fact is, there isn't enough work at home to absorb 70 odd crew at the moment. Perhaps if things pick up that may change, but right now there are guys out there busting themselves to take care of their families because the prospects in SA are not good. Unfortunately, SA contract companies tender lower than most by screwing crews on basic pay and per diems, not to mention dodgier accommodation and conditions.
Hopefully this tragic event will be a wake up call, and it may well lead to change in the short term. Human nature being what it is, the long term prospects will just be eroded once more the minute the pressure is off, and the next batch of guys willing to fly for peanuts roll up with their brand new McRatings.
Edited to add:- FYI, most of Africa is a war zone to some extent or another. Guaranteeing your safety just about anywhere on the continent, including SA, is just not possible.
Fact is, there isn't enough work at home to absorb 70 odd crew at the moment. Perhaps if things pick up that may change, but right now there are guys out there busting themselves to take care of their families because the prospects in SA are not good. Unfortunately, SA contract companies tender lower than most by screwing crews on basic pay and per diems, not to mention dodgier accommodation and conditions.
Hopefully this tragic event will be a wake up call, and it may well lead to change in the short term. Human nature being what it is, the long term prospects will just be eroded once more the minute the pressure is off, and the next batch of guys willing to fly for peanuts roll up with their brand new McRatings.
Edited to add:- FYI, most of Africa is a war zone to some extent or another. Guaranteeing your safety just about anywhere on the continent, including SA, is just not possible.
Last edited by Solid Rust Twotter; 20th Sep 2012 at 14:59.
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I agree . There just isn't enough work available in South Africa.....it's sad but true !!!
IMHO the last three years has seen the demise of a few once great companies to fly for.
Ie. executive aerospace
Rossair
Executive turbine
And most recently Velvet Sky.....
IMHO the last three years has seen the demise of a few once great companies to fly for.
Ie. executive aerospace
Rossair
Executive turbine
And most recently Velvet Sky.....
Last edited by Ghost_Rider737; 20th Sep 2012 at 16:30.
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There is always some jerk off like "always flunking" telling pilots to return to RSA and to be loved by him and the industry even though there are no jobs.
Flunking just stay out of it, you are not here and your flatulent comments to '
"come home" go on wasted ears.
We don't need wet nursing as South Africans, but better security support.
One decides to fly here and gets employed or one decides and is rejected, you may be the latter.
This is not a pansy picnic.....but neither are the boys here pansies.
Leave us alone.
Flunking just stay out of it, you are not here and your flatulent comments to '
"come home" go on wasted ears.
We don't need wet nursing as South Africans, but better security support.
One decides to fly here and gets employed or one decides and is rejected, you may be the latter.
This is not a pansy picnic.....but neither are the boys here pansies.
Leave us alone.
The crux of the matter is that although what you say is true and I agree with your sentiments Always Flying, it will fall on deaf ears. As SRT says, if what you say moves 50 crew members to leave, there WILL BE 50 more waiting here to replace them.
Speaking to pilot friends of mine, and in light of this shocking event (RIP
), I asked who would consider going to Afghan tomorrow if offered a job by a contract company? Out of a group of 6 of us, 1 said he wouldn't. Granted, none of us are married or have kids yet but we do have girlfriends/family etc. to think about. That's the reality of it and their answers were predictable.
Just an idea of the mindset of young pilots in SA at the moment. Like it or not, it's that of desperation.
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Be wary of bragging on PPRUNE
RSA ATPL 1975
21000+hrs
10 countries licenses,5 intl validations
7000+ NG/ P1 plus other heavy aluminum.
Flown the planet
B200/ B1900 and the best, DC-3
Can't remember when I got a PPL though, I must admit you could be right.
Leave us alone.
21000+hrs
10 countries licenses,5 intl validations
7000+ NG/ P1 plus other heavy aluminum.
Flown the planet
B200/ B1900 and the best, DC-3
Can't remember when I got a PPL though, I must admit you could be right.
Leave us alone.
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Don't worry, that mythical pilot shortage is probably being predicted to come up again soon, so there won't be a metric f**kton of guys waiting in the wings to come to war zones....oh wait....
Contracts are unfortunately what most of us have had to go through to get somewhere better. Saying 'come home' is like saying 'stop flying and give it up', so no surprises on the reaction that comment gets. I am very much less than impressed with SA contract companies though - basically lip service to crew safety in many cases (and not just OPSEC type stuff, also the aviation side).
Contracts are unfortunately what most of us have had to go through to get somewhere better. Saying 'come home' is like saying 'stop flying and give it up', so no surprises on the reaction that comment gets. I am very much less than impressed with SA contract companies though - basically lip service to crew safety in many cases (and not just OPSEC type stuff, also the aviation side).
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We lost some folks. Never a good thing. The mawkish sentiment from those who have no clue shouldn't detract from that. Until we as crew can count on the contract pimps to properly back us up, this kind of crap will continue. No point in holding your breath. We still need to earn a living so better we suck it up and secure our own arses. Expecting the operators to cut into the dividends to make things right is pointless.We can only rely on ourselves and our colleagues. OPSEC and PERSEC are paramount. Fly safe and watch your arse.
Last edited by Solid Rust Twotter; 21st Sep 2012 at 17:44.
Guys and girls, please understand that it is not worth it up there anymore. No matter what they pay you, some companies pay well whilst others are shockingly bad. For the guys that have been doing this for a while, you've made your money, got your t-shirt, its now time to leave. I know we all worry about jobs back home, but something will come up, the pay won't be as high but at least you can be home with your family and friends and be happy. Now im not saying this about all contracts, im talking about Afghanistan, Yemen, Sudan... the hot places. I think Sudan might be ok for now but who knows.
Guys understand something, the reward is simply not worth the risk after what has just happened. You need to think about the other people and how it effects them if something had to happen, family, friends etc. Think long and hard, but the answer should be clear as day....
come home all of you...
Guys understand something, the reward is simply not worth the risk after what has just happened. You need to think about the other people and how it effects them if something had to happen, family, friends etc. Think long and hard, but the answer should be clear as day....
come home all of you...
You really have to join the circus and go there, do that etc to really understand about life in the Haz Pay zone. Its not black & white.
RIP the fallen.
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Bottom line is that there are always pilots waiting for their " break "
Captains won't be easy to replace due the high time on type PIC requirement
the UN etc require. FO'S would be easier I would imagine.
It would be nice to hear from Solenta on the debate about pay, crew , etc
on here, as we know he posts on this forum.
Stay safe and save your cash for a rainy day.
Captains won't be easy to replace due the high time on type PIC requirement
the UN etc require. FO'S would be easier I would imagine.
It would be nice to hear from Solenta on the debate about pay, crew , etc
on here, as we know he posts on this forum.
Stay safe and save your cash for a rainy day.