ethiopian
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Africa
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Odericko, after wading through most of your drivel I realized you have not understood the reason for the inclusion of the skin colour in my original post. Being born in South Africa and therefore being a South African citizen I have been reminded several times by our local black population that despite being 3rd generation African I am in fact no African citizen of this continent. I however feel otherwise about this. The point I was thus trying to make is that on this continent there are black and white Africans. The black Africans openly display animosity and intolerance to the white Africans especially when concerned with jobs. To the educated it is then meaningful to know that this position is governed by black skinned Africans.
By the way I never said the black people where disliked, inferior or anything else. Just that the black group favored their own.
Regarding the food supply comment being inaccurate, can you name a case where a country from the African continent supplied free food drops to a European country.
By the way I never said the black people where disliked, inferior or anything else. Just that the black group favored their own.
Regarding the food supply comment being inaccurate, can you name a case where a country from the African continent supplied free food drops to a European country.
Last edited by oompilot; 27th Dec 2011 at 13:14.
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: through the door, left
Posts: 111
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oompilot, those who live here, do know you are right. Those, who don't live here, will always call you a racist.
A national carrier has in the past employed several ethnic African foreigners, Zimbabweans, Ugandans, South Africans etc. and an Indian (by passport) guy too.
The Indian pilot did not at all meet the minimum qualifications, the company however employed him and paid for his training (ME CPL & IF), while paying him a salary too.
However, there are national pilots (citizens) available, who have a lot more experience and would only need the minimum trainig, e.g. type rating.
However, those pilots happen to be caucasian, despite their families being in the country for generations.
The fleetcaptain (ethnic African), who actually tried to stop the employment of the Indian national and rather wanted to employ one of the more experienced caucasian citizens got disciplined.
Since the strategy of employing non-caucasian pilots lead to a shortage due to excessive training times (type ratings failed several times by several non-caucasian pilots, probably due to the big step from C172 to a jet) the crew shortage had to be resolved by employing European (caucasian) contract pilots...
A national carrier has in the past employed several ethnic African foreigners, Zimbabweans, Ugandans, South Africans etc. and an Indian (by passport) guy too.
The Indian pilot did not at all meet the minimum qualifications, the company however employed him and paid for his training (ME CPL & IF), while paying him a salary too.
However, there are national pilots (citizens) available, who have a lot more experience and would only need the minimum trainig, e.g. type rating.
However, those pilots happen to be caucasian, despite their families being in the country for generations.
The fleetcaptain (ethnic African), who actually tried to stop the employment of the Indian national and rather wanted to employ one of the more experienced caucasian citizens got disciplined.
Since the strategy of employing non-caucasian pilots lead to a shortage due to excessive training times (type ratings failed several times by several non-caucasian pilots, probably due to the big step from C172 to a jet) the crew shortage had to be resolved by employing European (caucasian) contract pilots...
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Douala
Age: 44
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@Odericko
Couldn't have put it in a better way.
@ all apartheid nostalgics.
The fact that black south africans are now "getting back" at white south africans after all these years of apartheid and racism should not come into play when speaking about Africa as a whole, let alone Ethiopia.
Calling black people "locals" and whites "expats" isn't very smart.
What happens, for example like when our national airline (cameroon) went down, and some captains left for Asia, as well as other African countries. Are they not considered to be "expats" over there even though they are black?
It really baffles me to read comments of people complaining about being 3rd generation white Africans and being singled out by black counterparts.
Well my friends, do you have any idea what is to be black and trying to find a decent job in Europe, or even America, even when one has the right qualifications? And the main difference, is at least WE did not come into THEIR land, strip them of everything THEY had, and put them into some form of slavery. Had we done that, then maybe I could imagine why THEY would be mad at US!!
Now the system might not be right in S.A., but please, stop complaining for a situation that was instaured because of your grandparents behavior, and if things are too harsh, then just move to another country. After all, isn't that the life of a pilot? And I'll repeat myself, there are some pilots in worse conditions than you are, on other continents.
Last but not least, I will reiterate what I said in my earlier post. Airlines, apart from the ones specialized in expat recruitment like EK, EY, and such, always favor recruiting "locals". In Brazil, yo have to be a national and speak Portuguese. In Europe, you have to hold a EU passport, but often, like in France, Germany, Switzerland, etc, they will also require you to speak the national language fluently on top of your ICAO level 4 english.
I need not to speak of the US, Canada, or Australia. Isn't that some form of protectionism?
What you should also know is that if "locals" often do not like "expats", it is simply because they often get much better working conditions.
Simple example, when they recruited pilots for the new cameroonian national airlines, they gave some awesome packages for the european (all white) pilots. 7000€/month for FOs and 10000€ for CAPT plus free housing at a 4 star HOTEL. The local pilots were getting paid...900€ and that's all. Yes, that's right. Even the expat cabin crew were making some 3000€ monthly. It was getting so pathetic they got kicked out.
Now Ethiopian might only be paying $6500 or so to say, but remember the locals there do not exceed $2000. Life is less expensive there than in any western country as long as you "keep it cool" so make an educated choice.
Happy Holidays to you all.
Couldn't have put it in a better way.
@ all apartheid nostalgics.
The fact that black south africans are now "getting back" at white south africans after all these years of apartheid and racism should not come into play when speaking about Africa as a whole, let alone Ethiopia.
Calling black people "locals" and whites "expats" isn't very smart.
What happens, for example like when our national airline (cameroon) went down, and some captains left for Asia, as well as other African countries. Are they not considered to be "expats" over there even though they are black?
It really baffles me to read comments of people complaining about being 3rd generation white Africans and being singled out by black counterparts.
Well my friends, do you have any idea what is to be black and trying to find a decent job in Europe, or even America, even when one has the right qualifications? And the main difference, is at least WE did not come into THEIR land, strip them of everything THEY had, and put them into some form of slavery. Had we done that, then maybe I could imagine why THEY would be mad at US!!
Now the system might not be right in S.A., but please, stop complaining for a situation that was instaured because of your grandparents behavior, and if things are too harsh, then just move to another country. After all, isn't that the life of a pilot? And I'll repeat myself, there are some pilots in worse conditions than you are, on other continents.
Last but not least, I will reiterate what I said in my earlier post. Airlines, apart from the ones specialized in expat recruitment like EK, EY, and such, always favor recruiting "locals". In Brazil, yo have to be a national and speak Portuguese. In Europe, you have to hold a EU passport, but often, like in France, Germany, Switzerland, etc, they will also require you to speak the national language fluently on top of your ICAO level 4 english.
I need not to speak of the US, Canada, or Australia. Isn't that some form of protectionism?
What you should also know is that if "locals" often do not like "expats", it is simply because they often get much better working conditions.
Simple example, when they recruited pilots for the new cameroonian national airlines, they gave some awesome packages for the european (all white) pilots. 7000€/month for FOs and 10000€ for CAPT plus free housing at a 4 star HOTEL. The local pilots were getting paid...900€ and that's all. Yes, that's right. Even the expat cabin crew were making some 3000€ monthly. It was getting so pathetic they got kicked out.
Now Ethiopian might only be paying $6500 or so to say, but remember the locals there do not exceed $2000. Life is less expensive there than in any western country as long as you "keep it cool" so make an educated choice.
Happy Holidays to you all.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: South Africa
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
737-NG your posting regarding Africans in Europe and elsewhere in the world getting jobs, is incorrect, consider this. Many of these countries have introduced affirmative action or similar programs to protect these minority groups. In Africa, including South Africa these programs are enforced to protect a majority group, this group being the local black population, thus sidelining the minority! So your analogy is not similar at all.
Secondly your point regarding other parts of the world hiring pilots on criteria such as language or passport is interesting. I did notice that none related to skin colour, only to nationality and practicality. In Africa this doesn't hold true.
One last point, I have never in my years heard another black country refer to the foreign blacks as expats. Never have I heard that all the Zimbabweans working in South Africa are expats or the Nigerian's living in Ponte in JHB, are expats. The term has been exclusively used for describing white people.
It's another example of black African's not wanting to include new non blacks into their countries, the point of my original post.
Straight honest facts are clearly not appreciated regarding this topic. Enough of your smoke and mirrors talk on this one, Cheers!
Secondly your point regarding other parts of the world hiring pilots on criteria such as language or passport is interesting. I did notice that none related to skin colour, only to nationality and practicality. In Africa this doesn't hold true.
One last point, I have never in my years heard another black country refer to the foreign blacks as expats. Never have I heard that all the Zimbabweans working in South Africa are expats or the Nigerian's living in Ponte in JHB, are expats. The term has been exclusively used for describing white people.
It's another example of black African's not wanting to include new non blacks into their countries, the point of my original post.
Straight honest facts are clearly not appreciated regarding this topic. Enough of your smoke and mirrors talk on this one, Cheers!
Está servira para distraerle.
Rumour tells of the time back in around 1988/1990 when Air Botswana employed a batch of Tanzanian F27 captains as expatriates in order to lance the boil of political correctness. The whisper further has it tell that these guys were of rather limited ability, having been brought in to provide the appropriate smiley face in the cockpit rather than to bring any gifts of skill and aviation ability into the company. That was shortly before Captain XYZ, who was I think a local rather than a white guy who'd lived in Africa for three generations, nicked an ATR, flew it around Gabs for a lap or two while dementedly threatening death and destruction to the president and then, on landing,crunched the machine into the remaining neatly parked AB fleet thereby depriving the country of its entire airline capability at one fell swoop. Sic transit gloria mundi?
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: slightly right of the MCP
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear! oompilot you expose so much ignorance whenever you post here.
first and foremost there are black expatriates, Kenya Airways used to have a 737-200 fleet that was exclusively expats, and guess what, half of them were black, some from Zambia, Uganda, Rwanda etc when the fleet was retired they were absorbed into the 73NG. fleet, and yes people are recruited on the basis of their Nationality or passport if you like, the 777 fleet manager isn't native African actually he is of Asian descent but he is a National, the 767 fleet manager is of Arabic descent but he is a national, the 737 fleet manager is actually Caucasian but he is a National, the chief pilot is native African but overriding factor is that he is a National, please get your facts before you post.
As 737NG pointed out some people here are indeed arpatheid nostalgics, they believe if an expatriate isn't white then they are recruited for other reasons other than their flying abilities, you can clearly get that from carvotingcheetahs post and another one who earlier claimed that non white pilots have to retake their ratings exams severally before they actually qualify. If a white pilot doesn't make the cut then obviously it is racially instigated, what a load of BS.
Having schooled in South Africa i know first hand what to be discriminated against is, interestingly it was easier to get along with the white South Africans than the Black South Africans, but even they(whites) had a disdain for the non whites and many a times we had to put up with verbal abuse in the cockpit from the instructors, and it pained most not all, that at that point in time the 20 or so group of black students was the best performing, immediately after we were in Europe for ground school and Sim training and it was much more pleasant than Good old Eastern cape.
oompilot you should understand that the affirmative action in south Africa protects the so called majority since they were opressed for a very long time by your Apartheid regime denying them even the most basic fundamentals to humanity, so the argument is you had decades of head start in terms of Education and economic well being, they are only getting started, obviously with the kind of ignorance you display you will not get it.
first and foremost there are black expatriates, Kenya Airways used to have a 737-200 fleet that was exclusively expats, and guess what, half of them were black, some from Zambia, Uganda, Rwanda etc when the fleet was retired they were absorbed into the 73NG. fleet, and yes people are recruited on the basis of their Nationality or passport if you like, the 777 fleet manager isn't native African actually he is of Asian descent but he is a National, the 767 fleet manager is of Arabic descent but he is a national, the 737 fleet manager is actually Caucasian but he is a National, the chief pilot is native African but overriding factor is that he is a National, please get your facts before you post.
As 737NG pointed out some people here are indeed arpatheid nostalgics, they believe if an expatriate isn't white then they are recruited for other reasons other than their flying abilities, you can clearly get that from carvotingcheetahs post and another one who earlier claimed that non white pilots have to retake their ratings exams severally before they actually qualify. If a white pilot doesn't make the cut then obviously it is racially instigated, what a load of BS.
Having schooled in South Africa i know first hand what to be discriminated against is, interestingly it was easier to get along with the white South Africans than the Black South Africans, but even they(whites) had a disdain for the non whites and many a times we had to put up with verbal abuse in the cockpit from the instructors, and it pained most not all, that at that point in time the 20 or so group of black students was the best performing, immediately after we were in Europe for ground school and Sim training and it was much more pleasant than Good old Eastern cape.
oompilot you should understand that the affirmative action in south Africa protects the so called majority since they were opressed for a very long time by your Apartheid regime denying them even the most basic fundamentals to humanity, so the argument is you had decades of head start in terms of Education and economic well being, they are only getting started, obviously with the kind of ignorance you display you will not get it.
Está servira para distraerle.
I've heard that argument propounded in support of radical Islam. You know the sort of drivel. Mohammed was born six hundred years after Jesus Christ so therefore Muslims have six hundred years of catching up to do. Surely an expatriate pilot is only one who usually works on contract for a country other than his own, often on rates more appropriate to his own country's pay scales than those applying in his host country. In a vague attempt attempt to return to the thread, one can hardly blame Ethiopians if they have a certain antipathy toward white pilots when you consider the death and destruction spread amongst them by Italian pilots at Adowa and later, with mustard gas, at Dolo in 1936. HIM Ras Tafari, who is much abused in Jamaica, put the points across rather well in his speech to the League of Nations. I suggest that perhaps the most important point for discussion when considering expatriate pilots should be the standards set for licence issue by their own civil aviation authorities and that topic does not fall within the boundaries of this thread?
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: slightly right of the MCP
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
@carvotingcheetah, so from your own statement you admit that an expat is someone sought out for his skills outside his home country and not his skin color.
The reason a majority of expats are Caucasian is because they provide the largest pool of professionals within the industry, so naturally they will form the biggest number of expats, that's why the ignorant ones think the word expat is synonymous to being white.
The reason a majority of expats are Caucasian is because they provide the largest pool of professionals within the industry, so naturally they will form the biggest number of expats, that's why the ignorant ones think the word expat is synonymous to being white.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To perhaps drift back (slightly closer) to the original thread title, has anyone recently contacted one of the agencies doing the recruiting & asked directly "will I be paid during training/what is the maximum anticipated length of aforesaid training" ?
If they have,I would be tickled to know the answer.
If they have,I would be tickled to know the answer.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Too far from the equator
Posts: 745
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Great Escape.
The answer is 'no , we will not pay until final line check ' , apparently they have retired line trainers jumpseating . Anyway , the good news is that they must have got the 73 numbers they need , they have not advertised that particular job for a few weeks now . The medical continues to be a thing of mystery , blood tests being one of them - off the clock one day , normal the next . Happiness is V1 ...........
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: FUBAR
Posts: 3,348
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, I noticed that 767/MD11 was still there, but the 737 had gone quiet on SOME agencies, BUT one of them is still advertising the 737 jobs.
How DO they get guys to work for Nada for months ( I was told you now need to be line-checked to EVERY destination FFS
that certainly extends the "training/unpaid" period 
)
What a bunch of
, & all this cr@p to then be paid ¢6500 as a Capt at the end of it
How DO they get guys to work for Nada for months ( I was told you now need to be line-checked to EVERY destination FFS
that certainly extends the "training/unpaid" period ) What a bunch of
, & all this cr@p to then be paid ¢6500 as a Capt at the end of it
Está servira para distraerle.
A slight digression, if I may please, in response to a previous question. I should have thought that, by definition, an expatriate can come from any country and thus, axiomatically, may be of any ridiculous color or shape. However, it seems to me that it would be perfectly possible to describe an expatriate pilot thus.
A pilot who cannot find satisfactory employment within his own country for one reason or another, including his inability to meet the standards set as the norm within the aviation industry in that country who then finds employment in another country, often one where the culture is alien to his own, where the standards of aviation development, safety and skill either may be or usually are at a significantly lower level than prevail in the country from which the pilot is seeking to becoming an ex patriate. That's just a theoretical explanation based upon empirical evidence as might be provided by Mr Spock, commissioned rank officer in Star Fleet Command, I believe. Last year, just, Ethiopian appointed its first female Captain, Amsale Gualu so one presumes that, perhaps under certain conditions, females might also be considered for various positions.
A pilot who cannot find satisfactory employment within his own country for one reason or another, including his inability to meet the standards set as the norm within the aviation industry in that country who then finds employment in another country, often one where the culture is alien to his own, where the standards of aviation development, safety and skill either may be or usually are at a significantly lower level than prevail in the country from which the pilot is seeking to becoming an ex patriate. That's just a theoretical explanation based upon empirical evidence as might be provided by Mr Spock, commissioned rank officer in Star Fleet Command, I believe. Last year, just, Ethiopian appointed its first female Captain, Amsale Gualu so one presumes that, perhaps under certain conditions, females might also be considered for various positions.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Europe
Posts: 627
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Outch.... that hurts. To become an Ex Patriate is mostly driven by a force beyond the controll of the individual. Mostly unemployment, rarely incapability. Fakers is another topic, I agree.
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Douala
Age: 44
Posts: 286
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Insteresting definition by cavortingcheetah. So all these FR or sometimes AC guys going massively to EK have an "inability to meet the standards set as the norm within the aviation industry in that country" yet they go to a place "where the standards of aviation development, safety and skill either may be or usually are at a significantly lower level than prevail in the country from which the pilot is seeking to becoming an ex patriate."
Expat doesn't necessarily means unemployed or unable to find a job in one's own country, as those guys prove to us by jumping ships to go to a better paid job, and better T&C's even though they were perfectly qualified and were flying for rather large airlines in their home countries. But they now fly for a reputed airline which I believe is not so easy to get into, and has standards just as high or even higher than their preceeding ones.There are dozens of reasons why one would become an expat, let's not reduce them down to two or three phrases.
Now for oompilot, I'd like a list of those european countries using "affirmative action" as I live on the old continent and would really be interested in moving there! The only place I know where that method is being used outside SA is the US. But having lived there for 3 years, pilots don't fall under that law, at least not directly.
Now, to get back to the thread, the Ethiopian gig is definately not the best in the century, at least not for a westerner, but could be great for an African expat working for a company only paying him let's say half of that. Just an example.
Expat doesn't necessarily means unemployed or unable to find a job in one's own country, as those guys prove to us by jumping ships to go to a better paid job, and better T&C's even though they were perfectly qualified and were flying for rather large airlines in their home countries. But they now fly for a reputed airline which I believe is not so easy to get into, and has standards just as high or even higher than their preceeding ones.There are dozens of reasons why one would become an expat, let's not reduce them down to two or three phrases.
Now for oompilot, I'd like a list of those european countries using "affirmative action" as I live on the old continent and would really be interested in moving there! The only place I know where that method is being used outside SA is the US. But having lived there for 3 years, pilots don't fall under that law, at least not directly.
Now, to get back to the thread, the Ethiopian gig is definately not the best in the century, at least not for a westerner, but could be great for an African expat working for a company only paying him let's say half of that. Just an example.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: slightly right of the MCP
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do concur , if you are comfortable where you are and 6800USD is peanuts for you please stay where you are, the job isn't forced on anyone. Besides the gig might be good for the expats flying for the less stable companies in West Africa, ET is a very stable company and i believe they pay their pilots regularly and on time, life in Addis is significantly cheaper than most countries even in Africa.
N4790P
I’m not going to get involved in the rights and wrongs of this ‘debate’ but may I remind you all that in 1993/4 ( and whilst I was working at Ethiopian Airlines) the airline was purged of some of their best personnel when any individual of Eritrean ancestry was kicked out. Many excellent people were basically shafted.
I wonder if they now allow Eritrean ‘expats’?
I wonder if they now allow Eritrean ‘expats’?
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: bush
Posts: 69
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As for point by cavortingcheetah, I would say that only a very small minority of expats lack in competence and aptitude. But, if you are "bottom feeder" airline with smallest salary and otherwise worst terms and conditions, you will get pretty much all of the not-even-upto-your-standard expats to your doorstep. Hence for example Turkish will be screening many more bad apples than emirates.
I've never before heard that expat is skin colour thing. According to the grapevine KQ union doesn't like the idea of expats even if they would be from Tanzania and Uganda.. Likewise I haven't heard Kenyans on any colour having any easier time in ET assessment than Caucasian or Indian applicants.
I've never before heard that expat is skin colour thing. According to the grapevine KQ union doesn't like the idea of expats even if they would be from Tanzania and Uganda.. Likewise I haven't heard Kenyans on any colour having any easier time in ET assessment than Caucasian or Indian applicants.
