Moremi Air van down

[cavortingcheetah]

It's academic, but it's usual for performance figures on grass to be less advantageous than those on tarmac regardless of engines.

See 5-24.3 here.

http://textron.vo.llnwd.net/o25/CES/...aravan_pim.pdf

[flying ham]

AKD ENGINE

Foxcotte, I have been told by a few in Maun that the Engine once recovered from the bush was left in an open vehicle on the Maun tarmac completely accessable to anyone and everyone that happened by. The engine was not covered nor was it guarded. Evidence in a possible wrongful death left unsecured. Do not know where it is now.

Sorry, not a positive start to the investigation.

[V1... Ooops]

This post is a bit of a non-sequitur, because I'm replying to comments made about two months ago, way back on page 4 of the discussion. I'm replying out of the context of this discussion, by that I mean with no reference or prejudice to the unfortunate accident in Botswana.

Originally Posted by Foxcotte

And while I'm on a roll, I'd like to consider what would actually make a bush plane seeing as there is some strong opinions about it on this thread... Let's see

Something rugged
Dependable
Simple to fly
Economic to buy, operate and run
Under the ATP bracket for pilot/insurance costs
Widespread/well known so pilots aren't an issue to get
Proven/established manufacturer with parts/spares/training backup
Large enough to take a group of say one or two tour buses full,
Lots of luggage compartments for ease of storage
Capable of easily being converted from cargo to passenger configuration
Tough, fixed gear for rough runways, and to avoid rebuild costs on gear-up landings
Large tyres for soft surfaces - easy wheel/tyre change capability for punctures
Tricycle gear to eliminate ground loops/inept tail wheel pilots/inadvertant runway departures
IFR equipped with optional aircon/icing/floats/skis/glass cockpit capability
High wing to avoid small trees/shrubs/fence posts etc on narrow runways
18" or more prop clearance to get over uncut/long grass
Landing/take off in approximately 750-800m
Range to do at least 1000nm or 7+ hours
Airstair door for disabled/elderly/immobile passengers
Roomy cabin with good visiblity for sightseeing
Slow approach/lift off speeds
Currently in production
Non-pressurised for economic/pratical/weight reasons
Capable of long cruises, or very short hops

I think that's pretty much all of my wish list. I wonder how many planes can fit the bill.....??

The Series 400 Twin Otter meets every single one of the requirements you have listed, with the exception of range to do 1,000 miles. The basic aircraft will do 600 miles, or 750 miles if fitted with optional wing tanks.

Originally Posted by Foxcotte

Yeah... I'd thought of a twin otter but its only just resurrected from the ashes, with what is in effect a new company. Two engines make it quite a bit more expensive than its nearest rival with overhaul costs etc, and neither can they produce them as fast as their competitor. And this African idea of making them two crew ops also adds to the basic running costs, training costs, and hassles with getting pilots capable of flying them. And the rudder tiller makes it a little non-standard compared with the basic set up of aircraft controls.

So all in all it still just doesn't stack up to the other contender. Bush plane or not.

Viking Air, the manufacturer, has been in business for nearly 40 years, and has been manufacturing parts for de Havilland aircraft - under contract to de Havilland - for at least 20 years. It is by no means a new company. As of today 10 new Series 400 Twin Otters are flying.

Naturally a twin-engine aircraft will be more expensive to purchase and operate than a smaller single engine aircraft. However, a twin engine aircraft - in particular, a twin that has been recently certified in the 'Part 23 commuter' category, with the more stringent regulations applicable to that 10 to 19 seat category - offers considerable advantages and benefits over a single engine aircraft that has only been certified for Part 23, 9 passenger or less operations.

For sake of full disclosure: I work for Viking Air.

[172driver]

Foxcotte, I have been told by a few in Maun that the Engine once recovered from the bush was left in an open vehicle on the Maun tarmac completely accessable to anyone and everyone that happened by. The engine was not covered nor was it guarded. Evidence in a possible wrongful death left unsecured. Do not know where it is now.

You know you are in Africa when........

[MAGNUM .44]

Sorry my first post.

So this could mean that we will never know what happened. I mean if the engine was not properly sucured then would not all the parties involved step back attempt to distance themselves from any responsibility or blame that may be levied? Can a complete investigation actually be undertaken and would it be officially recognised if the above were true?

[Foxcotte]

I now understand the engine is with the manufacturer P&W for examination - at long last. But the reply that said the engine sat at Maun airport uncovered/unprotected would appear to confirm a similar story I heard from someone else. Rumours that not all the engine/key components were recovered in the first place are also gaining substantial credibility. That is seriously worrying for the integrity of the investigation and any subsequent report/finding that may come out of all of this.

I know that this is DIA, but that just isn't good enough. Not for these people involved in this incident, or the country, company and region either. Africa CAN and MUST do better. There are too many questions waiting to be answered, and too many people hurt/angry/confused about this particular crash to be left with doubts and suspicions at the end of it all. Fears that the real story of what happened would not ever be told seem - at the moment - to be ominously justified. Its so heartbreaking and agonising for all the families of the victims. The worst nightmare is an inconclusive report that muddies the waters and no clear responsibility is laid at anyone's door - and leaves all the rumours/gossip avenues open. In the long term I don't think that's in anyone's best interests even if the short term gains seem momentarily attractive.

V1...Ooops. Thanks for your belated feedback and defence of the Twotter. It only came up in this thread because of the then enthusiastic debate as to whether the Caravan is a bush plane or not. I believe that the Caravan is arguably the best bush plane around with the Twin Otter coming in a close second. But this is a debate for another thread...

[Capt Livingstone]

AKD Engine

Sorry folks, one has been away.

I have been told by a few in Maun that the Engine once recovered from the bush was left in an open vehicle on the Maun tarmac completely accessable to anyone and everyone that happened by. The engine was not covered nor was it guarded.

All correct, in the rain, by the fire station to be precise. Last heard of in Johannesburg untouched but I am a few weeks out of date on that one. Given the Christmas/New Year break I doubt if there was any progress.

[flying ham]

Who is running Moremi Air?

Captain Livingston. In your post (#123) you mentioned a 'she' before (the CEO) that does not listen to her people and tried to cover it up. Can you expand on this? Just because she is the boss that does not mean she can operate an air operation any way she chooses and ignore her CAAB approved & appointed operations staff. Her control/input should stop at policy and procedures. Surely she understands this and doesn’t participate in the day to day operations of the company. That must be left to the senior operations staff approved and vetted, otherwise, from my experience they must be close to breaching the terms and conditions of their Air Transport License (ATL).

[Rico 25]

Flying Ham -like you I am concerned about the typical African 'ways'-no doubt the fact that the engine for AKD was left out in the open in the back of a vehicle without much regard for security doesn't surprise me at all.

Forget about takeoff performance charts and figures- this is all a waste of time. If the Botswana CAA conduct a thorough investigation they will use their own methods and if they don't- well hey ho as they say!

Cavorting Cheetah-dude take some English lessons-seriously! Whenever I read your posts I think you must be on some pretty strong sh*t!!

[flying ham]

QUALITY CONTROL

Yes I understand Africa. We have similar problems up here. My concern is if this is the way they handle the engine what are they doing with the rest of the evidence in this investigation. What about a full investigation into the company and it's management. I understand that they continue to operate.

CAAB may carry out what they believe to be a complete investigation but that is from their perspective. What my worry is that they probably have the ability to draw on a much wider experience base (NTSB, UKCAA, French CAA maybe), are they doing it or are they trying to run it themselves. That area is a huge tourism spot for the country and no doubt this accident has concerned many.

[MAGNUM .44]

And I thought we had problems over here with how things got done. So Moremi Air just keeps operating on a daily basis - business as usual? Do they have to undertake any additional Line Checks with the CAA or are they audited more frequently because of their accident history?

[Capt Livingstone]

Flying Ham:

Captain Livingston. In your post (#123) you mentioned a 'she' before (the CEO) that does not listen to her people and tried to cover it up.

This is a small town and a very close knit flying community. News of the crash was out within minutes. In this situation at least a brief statement should have been made by the company as soon as possible. Also the press should have been informed of hard facts as they emerged with carefully worded press statements. No more no less. A three day news black out and staff informed to make 'no comment' to any enquiry was not the way to deal with this. It would, and did, just lead to some quite ridiculous rumours which still abound.

Moremi Air is business as usual, to a certain degree. They have had many passengers booked who have refused to fly with them and are being forced to sub charter to other companies. Their two associated safari companies are ducking, diving and being a little economical with the truth to force tourists to fly with Moremi Air.

I am not associated with the company but have to be careful not to blow my cover. I do have to say that there are some great people working for them. in the air and on the ground. The problem is at the very top.

[bluesideoops]

As people have stated, Maun is a small community, with an even smaller flying community within it, those who have been there know very well the 'She' CEO in question and those of us who do and have known how she has acted and influenced the Air Operation at Moremi Air over the years are in no doubt about the impact that this has had - the record speaks for itself. Perhaps John Mynhardt will finally come to his senses.

[Capt Livingstone]

CC you coward. I read it before removed. I was thinking along the same lines but also backed off saying it. I will ask a few discrete questions.

I was not aware of John being on the CAAB board. The thlot plickens. I have never met the gentleman but most speak very highly of him and Janie. As for Sue (not so) Smart - never heard anything good.

[Capt Livingstone]

For those who wish to see her in action

Sue Smart, Kwando Safaris, Botswana - YouTube

[Flyingharry]

Okay I was not logged on when CC put the original post so I did not get to read it. Now if he just edited to make it a better read fine but if he removed something that he did not take the time to think about before posting doesn't that constitute the do over previously mentioned (#113) and the Grade school mentality. Any chance you could put back these comments or will the coward label stick? I think I know the answer and hope it is incorrect.

[Capt Livingstone]

CC, my 'coward' comment was tongue in cheek. It would probably have been better if you had just removed it without giving a reason. Or indeed left it there, it was sort of subtle. Actually, I must toast some marshmallows at the next braai

Now Flyingharry will be even more curious - meow

On a more serious note, does anyone have any more info on the situation with the engine inspection? Or indeed its current location. I haven't seen one of my main sources recently.

[cavortingcheetah]

That's a hard self appointed moderator who expects someone on a rumour network to keep a record of that which was edited out of a post immediately after posting the dastardly thing, even before anyone had had a chance to complain. Besides and anyway, what is wrong with a grade school mentality and a do over? Have you never failed a segment of an instrument renewal?
I suspect though that the comment had something to do with the Queen of Sheba visiting Uganda and was removed for reasons of historical inaccuracy. There was perhaps something about cooking although cannibalism was not mentioned.

Edited @ 15.20Z. Thank you Capt. That's the way I took it.

[Flyingharry]

Yes I have got second chances at any number of things. But sitting an exam and making a mistake is different from blurting out insults in public, making veiled threats, or offering innuendos about other individuals and then taking it back. Sorry did not know which one of the above it was - because it is not there.

When I resit an exam it is a new test, not something I have withdrawn and then changes the answers. You either know what you want to say and then edit it for readability, or you don't say it. Do not say it and then take it back. This is not a difficult concept and represents what many people measure as a form of public responsibility.

But you do what you want, and how you want. You have a command of the English Language but obviously do not understand the concept of standing behind what you say. If you know you have made an error when posting, make another post correcting it. This shows others that you have a backbone and realize that everyone makes mistakes - even you, your holiness.

[cavortingcheetah]

I have only this to say and hope that, since it is not there, it will not be taken as a blurted insult, a veiled threat or even an innuendo.