Two Albatross Aircraft Missing Tzaneen.
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Wow are we ever surrounded by professors.......all keen to tell us how smart they are
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USSA
Please try to respect opinions of other who have experience in the area and likely to be cognisant with the temptations presented by the WX in those parts. If you want to get a glimpse of what flying in theHighveld might be like, I recommend a good book. "Bush Pilots do it in Fours" written by a pilot well versed in such matters, Roy Watson.
Then you might begin to understand the hazards in the area where this tragedy took place.
Then you might begin to understand the hazards in the area where this tragedy took place.
Last edited by Dawdler; 18th Aug 2011 at 23:43. Reason: spelling
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USSA: The label "I'm new here" that you have says just about everything. It appears that you are new to aviation too and that you still have a lot to learn. If you do fly, it might be good for you to listen to some of those 'professors' so that you don't end up in a mess on a hillside somewhere. (I don't actually believe that you are in or from the USA, as from what I've seen of the place I quite like it and the people...) Stop trying to sound 'clever', as you are failing miserably.
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It's not just Africa...
I used to fly from Manassas, Virginia, not a particularly challenging environment or so you would think, and certainly nothing like some of the places in Africa.
I used to see the Civil Air Patrol vehicles in the parking lot every holiday season, though; they were there to run searches for missing aircraft, the usual VFR in marginal VMC or else perhaps in IMC, folks in a hurry to either get out on holiday or else to make it back home.
It is just human nature, I fear. You poke along in the clag with everything humming along nicely until one of those clouds turns out to have a bit of terrain hidden inside it, as they very often do. I assume most of the victims of this sort of aviation mistake only have about 0.5 seconds to think, 'Perhaps this wasn't such a good idea...' as some vague, dark shape materialises ahead from the surrounding mist.
This is not the sort of thing that teaches you from experience unless you are one of the very rare survivors of CFIT. The rest of us silly enough to do this scud-running tend to think, 'It can't happen to me,' until it does. It's a rather poor way to die, actually.
I used to see the Civil Air Patrol vehicles in the parking lot every holiday season, though; they were there to run searches for missing aircraft, the usual VFR in marginal VMC or else perhaps in IMC, folks in a hurry to either get out on holiday or else to make it back home.
It is just human nature, I fear. You poke along in the clag with everything humming along nicely until one of those clouds turns out to have a bit of terrain hidden inside it, as they very often do. I assume most of the victims of this sort of aviation mistake only have about 0.5 seconds to think, 'Perhaps this wasn't such a good idea...' as some vague, dark shape materialises ahead from the surrounding mist.
This is not the sort of thing that teaches you from experience unless you are one of the very rare survivors of CFIT. The rest of us silly enough to do this scud-running tend to think, 'It can't happen to me,' until it does. It's a rather poor way to die, actually.
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You look at the crash site and only one sentence comes to mind.
This was avoidable.
People need to stop being heros. Specially when you have others lives in your hands. It only takes a split second. A variable that you didnt factor in, and its all over.
This was avoidable.
People need to stop being heros. Specially when you have others lives in your hands. It only takes a split second. A variable that you didnt factor in, and its all over.
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Gentlemen
1. I have been flying since 1976 (including SA)
2. Been flying the airshow circuit (including in SA) since 1982
3. I know most of the people involved in this
4. The label I'm new here only means I forgot my old username and password.
5. Kotakato......not sure what case you rest or how you think my comment helps you rest it.
So perhaps you may want to revisit some of your assumptions.
For the record the posts I have scorned are those that express more of an opinion about the writer and his/or her genius/experience/the number of times he has flown that route etc that anything else.
I may not have the experience of the professors who have told us how clever they are.......but I have learned that in aviation (as with many walks in life) just when you start to expound on how silly someone else is, or how bad their mistake is it will come back to bite you.......
This was avoidable to be sure, and someone made a mistake to be sure.......but then isnt that true of just about every aviation accident?
1. I have been flying since 1976 (including SA)
2. Been flying the airshow circuit (including in SA) since 1982
3. I know most of the people involved in this
4. The label I'm new here only means I forgot my old username and password.
5. Kotakato......not sure what case you rest or how you think my comment helps you rest it.
So perhaps you may want to revisit some of your assumptions.
For the record the posts I have scorned are those that express more of an opinion about the writer and his/or her genius/experience/the number of times he has flown that route etc that anything else.
I may not have the experience of the professors who have told us how clever they are.......but I have learned that in aviation (as with many walks in life) just when you start to expound on how silly someone else is, or how bad their mistake is it will come back to bite you.......
This was avoidable to be sure, and someone made a mistake to be sure.......but then isnt that true of just about every aviation accident?
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Well that may all be fine, but does not preclude the right to discuss this event, even if it is based on subjective opinion.
It is important to discuss this because each one of us can review our own weaknesses and draw some kind of personal conclusion and maybe learn from others mistakes and it may prevent the one or other future accident actually from happening - nothing can be wrong with that - it actually forces people to switch on their own brains. Nobody here has claimed to know the ultimate turn of events - some of us might not be "professors" but mature adults.
There are many similar threads in this forum about accident discussion - why don't you state your point in all of those and see how far you get ? As I said before - you are in the wrong forum. You have contributed absolutely nothing constructive to this thread - so please spare us your useless comments - what you say makes no sense: If it should ever come back and bite someone (knock on wood) - it may be due to many different reasons, but surely not due to bad karma received by taking part in a forum discussion and exchanging thoughts, trying to reconstruct a possible cause of this or any other tragedy.
It is important to discuss this because each one of us can review our own weaknesses and draw some kind of personal conclusion and maybe learn from others mistakes and it may prevent the one or other future accident actually from happening - nothing can be wrong with that - it actually forces people to switch on their own brains. Nobody here has claimed to know the ultimate turn of events - some of us might not be "professors" but mature adults.
There are many similar threads in this forum about accident discussion - why don't you state your point in all of those and see how far you get ? As I said before - you are in the wrong forum. You have contributed absolutely nothing constructive to this thread - so please spare us your useless comments - what you say makes no sense: If it should ever come back and bite someone (knock on wood) - it may be due to many different reasons, but surely not due to bad karma received by taking part in a forum discussion and exchanging thoughts, trying to reconstruct a possible cause of this or any other tragedy.
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As we commiserate with friends and families over such a loss, let's hope that we will all learn from these events. Most of us have had some close shaves and hairy moments, like KK let's discourage ourselves and others that look up to us from taking unnecessary risks. There are a multitude of factors that make aviation more challenging in this part of the world. Nonetheless, we can all still play a part in making aviation in this neck of the woods safer than it is at the moment.
It is a privilege to be alive to see another day. There's need to remind ourselves that we are neither infallible nor immortal.
It is a privilege to be alive to see another day. There's need to remind ourselves that we are neither infallible nor immortal.
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Amen brother.
Forget that nice warm bed at home, forget the appointments, forget about getting there. Just turn around and get on the ground at the nearest safe place and wait for the weather to clear. Look forward to spending a night in a new place and having a few jars making new friends.
When you eventually get home think about that instrument rating and an aircraft capable of using it. And think how glad you are to still be alive.
Forget that nice warm bed at home, forget the appointments, forget about getting there. Just turn around and get on the ground at the nearest safe place and wait for the weather to clear. Look forward to spending a night in a new place and having a few jars making new friends.
When you eventually get home think about that instrument rating and an aircraft capable of using it. And think how glad you are to still be alive.
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Slalapanzi.
Good Bye Marrion and Brian and all the other souls lost in this tragic accident. SA Avation have lost some great people a great hole has been punched in the this wonderful Avation Community. I talked to Brian on the Wednesday before the accident. He was in the Kruger Park relaxing. I live in the USA and I am in Vietnam at the moment. I arranged to call him at his office after the weekend. I was stunned to read on the internet that 2 Ex SAAF Aircraft were missing with 13 onboard. I knew then it was 2 Albatrosse's. I prayed it was not Brian. Sadly the news turned bad. I have known Brian for many Years and flown with him many times. In 2007 I was in South Africa with my American Korean Girlfriend. We spent a wonderfull day flying with Brian in his Chipmunk, doing rolls and loops. I have flown with him many times in the Albatross. I know for sure he was a great professional and skilfull pilot, that would not take risks and endanger his passengers. We can speculate but we cannot determinate. We were not there with them at the time. Hopefully we will find a answer to this tragedy.
Rest in Peace in The Clouds that took you all from us.
Slalapanzi.
Rest in Peace in The Clouds that took you all from us.
Slalapanzi.
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Err...
It's all very well not to speak ill of the dead and all, but you might want to wait for the official report to see just how good a job these accident pilots did of avoiding risk. 'Flying slap into a rockface' is usually frowned upon when it comes to 'practicing good airmanship,' or is that just me?
Aside from boring old self-preservation there is always the avoidance of dying in a very embarrassing way as another motivation for not flying VFR in poor visibility, and I think we should keep it that way. (My apologies in advance if I sound too professorial with this one.)
Aside from boring old self-preservation there is always the avoidance of dying in a very embarrassing way as another motivation for not flying VFR in poor visibility, and I think we should keep it that way. (My apologies in advance if I sound too professorial with this one.)
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Dying doing something I like... sleeping!
Flying slap into a rockface
That the Albatross pilots were good and good men is not to be disputed. Still one is only as a good as one's last mistake. I try and live and learn from better men than me...
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I never met a singe soul mentioned here, yet, I cried like a baby when I read this thread, to the family, friends, mothers, fathers, children of the dearly departed, mine and my wife's most utmost condolences.
Dog
Dog
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Hi, one thing I have been wondering about but not seen anyone mention is if there is a possibility they thought they were flying at a higher altitude than they actually were especially with the wx changing. I have no idea what instruments they were carrying but know that GPS can be "out" if there are few satellites or they are all on the horizon. This website also makes interesting reading wrt weather fronts and altimeter settings.
The Low-Down on Altimeter Settings
The Low-Down on Altimeter Settings
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why would you be taking the altitude from the GPS in the first place?
Normal rule would be that if you were IMC, you fly higher than the tallest obstacle in the surrounding region with a decent buffer so if you or your instruments are a little off, you don't bump into anything...
Normal rule would be that if you were IMC, you fly higher than the tallest obstacle in the surrounding region with a decent buffer so if you or your instruments are a little off, you don't bump into anything...
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That would be called the MSA then (minimum sector altitude) which is generally meant for IFR. If you're VFR then the easiest way to avoid hitting things is to stay out of you IMC!
(It's not my place to judge on this particular accident - hopefully the investigators will do their job correctly).
(It's not my place to judge on this particular accident - hopefully the investigators will do their job correctly).
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Hang on a bit...
There will be a report out in about a year and-a-half or so. That should clear up any doubts about what happened. In the mean time, bear in mind that the survivors of those who died in the crash might be reading whatever is put up here and elsewhere.
I was working down in Richlands, western Virginia, when there was a CFIT just after I arrived back in late 1981. I flew over the crash site just a day or two later along with a friend, when we got a good look at how a Cheyenne I had caught the tallest tree on the tallest part of an escarpment that led downhill to the destination airstrip; the accident pilot almost made it, in other words. (What was he doing, you might ask? Well, he knew the area like the back of his hand and he had some kind of home-made low visibility approach that had always got him in there before. Track some public broadcast station, turn to such-and-such a heading, let down to some minimum altitude [but not the required minimum altitude for VFR in mountainous terrain], and there should be Richlands! Hey, it had always worked, until the fatal day....)
My friend went on UNICOM and just had to tell everyone there about what we had seen, his opinions about the crash, how the pilot screwed it up and all. I was over there on the other side of the cockpit sort of trying to hush him up but he was in in command and he was in full spate.
When we landed we went in the line shack, where the radio was blasting out at full volume. There was a small group of people in there, visitors. One of the other local pilots told my friend, 'Umm, that lady over there is the widow of the crash pilot; she heard everything you said.'
We left the line shack without another word, for what was there to say?
I took that for an invitation to try and keep my opinions to myself, within reason. We all know that we would never make the sort of mistake that killed poor old Joe Bloggs but it isn't always a good idea to go into a lot of detail why that is; you never know who you are talking to. Once the report comes out, that is the time to say something if there is anything much to add. Better is just to have a think about how close we have may come to some similar end but the pilots most at risk are the least likely to do that.
The biggest braggart I ever knew, always ready to dump on anyone else for making a fatal mistake, ended up dying in a CFIT. If he had done less talking and more thinking then he might still be with us.
I was working down in Richlands, western Virginia, when there was a CFIT just after I arrived back in late 1981. I flew over the crash site just a day or two later along with a friend, when we got a good look at how a Cheyenne I had caught the tallest tree on the tallest part of an escarpment that led downhill to the destination airstrip; the accident pilot almost made it, in other words. (What was he doing, you might ask? Well, he knew the area like the back of his hand and he had some kind of home-made low visibility approach that had always got him in there before. Track some public broadcast station, turn to such-and-such a heading, let down to some minimum altitude [but not the required minimum altitude for VFR in mountainous terrain], and there should be Richlands! Hey, it had always worked, until the fatal day....)
My friend went on UNICOM and just had to tell everyone there about what we had seen, his opinions about the crash, how the pilot screwed it up and all. I was over there on the other side of the cockpit sort of trying to hush him up but he was in in command and he was in full spate.
When we landed we went in the line shack, where the radio was blasting out at full volume. There was a small group of people in there, visitors. One of the other local pilots told my friend, 'Umm, that lady over there is the widow of the crash pilot; she heard everything you said.'
We left the line shack without another word, for what was there to say?
I took that for an invitation to try and keep my opinions to myself, within reason. We all know that we would never make the sort of mistake that killed poor old Joe Bloggs but it isn't always a good idea to go into a lot of detail why that is; you never know who you are talking to. Once the report comes out, that is the time to say something if there is anything much to add. Better is just to have a think about how close we have may come to some similar end but the pilots most at risk are the least likely to do that.
The biggest braggart I ever knew, always ready to dump on anyone else for making a fatal mistake, ended up dying in a CFIT. If he had done less talking and more thinking then he might still be with us.