Is aviation in Africa really unsafe?
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Thanks 4runner, for such a concise answer.
Now for the second, third, fourth and fifth parts of the story as per first post pasted below..
Now for the second, third, fourth and fifth parts of the story as per first post pasted below..
Though, a simple question this seems. I am indeed expecting very complex and conflicting answers. This question has the penchant for spin-offs; like
Are all the 54 nations and territories within the AFI region unsafe?
Is it a case of a hand with a couple of soiled fingers?
What are the real causes and the practical solutions to this 'safety question?
What will be the first two steps towards achieving better safety standards in this region as a unit?
Are all the 54 nations and territories within the AFI region unsafe?
Is it a case of a hand with a couple of soiled fingers?
What are the real causes and the practical solutions to this 'safety question?
What will be the first two steps towards achieving better safety standards in this region as a unit?
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Do you mind if I care to ask how often aircraft are shot down in Eastern and Central Africa in your opinion? In mine personally you may have heard of an aircraft downed in Somalia so that is clearly the norm is it? 
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I'll try and give some of my findings on this rather gruesome business without belabouring the point. However,in order to be succinct, I'll have to point you to my sources.
However, I have to say a plethora of factors tend to *distort the stats on this topic as most of these type of aviation events go unreported. The factors are not limited to, but include the following:
Classified government information.
Rogue arms trade flights.
Covert Mercenary movements
Smugglers of undeclared precious cargo, diamonds, drugs, etc.
Poor ATC control follow up.
Unless an aircraft is declared missing, ATC hardly have the resources to track aircraft that have filed valid flight plans with intent to just overfly the airspace.
As we are all aware, most of the equipment involved *are Russian and eastern built or some dinosaurs officially removed from service which are sometimes difficult to trace.
13 June, 2011
2 Planes shot down in Sudan.
Two Sudan army planes shot down
November 8, 2010
Plane shot down in Sudan,
JEM rebels claims it has shot down military plane in North Kordofan - Sudan Tribune: Plural news and views on Sudan
November, 2008.
Plane shot down Sudan/Chad border.
http://sudanwatch.********.com/2006/...ovt-plane.html
August 2008.
Unmanned spy drone shot down in Sudan? Rebels say yes, government say it was an unscheduled landing. Who do you believe?
DARFUR REBELS GUN DOWN PLANE « connectafrica
29 May, 2008
Russian pilot and mig29, shot down in Sudan.
DARFUR REBELS GUN DOWN PLANE « connectafrica
27 December 2007
Unregistered Russian Antonov shot down near Nyala Sudan.
ASN Aircraft accident Antonov registration unknown Nyala
Mar 2007
IL-76 shot down in somalia.
BBC NEWS | Africa | Plane 'shot down' in Somali city
The past 5 years have seen the Sudan military alone report over17 fatal crashes, mid-airs, and shot downs. You don't how many are classified and not reported. Evidence point to at least 3 times the number. Fatalities nearly 200. This might give you an idea:
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/C...-Country/sudan.
Hope this is useful even if it's just for curiosity.*
However, I have to say a plethora of factors tend to *distort the stats on this topic as most of these type of aviation events go unreported. The factors are not limited to, but include the following:
Classified government information.
Rogue arms trade flights.
Covert Mercenary movements
Smugglers of undeclared precious cargo, diamonds, drugs, etc.
Poor ATC control follow up.
Unless an aircraft is declared missing, ATC hardly have the resources to track aircraft that have filed valid flight plans with intent to just overfly the airspace.
As we are all aware, most of the equipment involved *are Russian and eastern built or some dinosaurs officially removed from service which are sometimes difficult to trace.
13 June, 2011
2 Planes shot down in Sudan.
Two Sudan army planes shot down
November 8, 2010
Plane shot down in Sudan,
JEM rebels claims it has shot down military plane in North Kordofan - Sudan Tribune: Plural news and views on Sudan
November, 2008.
Plane shot down Sudan/Chad border.
http://sudanwatch.********.com/2006/...ovt-plane.html
August 2008.
Unmanned spy drone shot down in Sudan? Rebels say yes, government say it was an unscheduled landing. Who do you believe?
DARFUR REBELS GUN DOWN PLANE « connectafrica
29 May, 2008
Russian pilot and mig29, shot down in Sudan.
DARFUR REBELS GUN DOWN PLANE « connectafrica
27 December 2007
Unregistered Russian Antonov shot down near Nyala Sudan.
ASN Aircraft accident Antonov registration unknown Nyala
Mar 2007
IL-76 shot down in somalia.
BBC NEWS | Africa | Plane 'shot down' in Somali city
The past 5 years have seen the Sudan military alone report over17 fatal crashes, mid-airs, and shot downs. You don't how many are classified and not reported. Evidence point to at least 3 times the number. Fatalities nearly 200. This might give you an idea:
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/C...-Country/sudan.
Hope this is useful even if it's just for curiosity.*
Last edited by DRPAM007; 16th Aug 2011 at 02:21.
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Vuka, this is not your personal thread, people do not need your permission or blessing to post, reply or upgrade to captain. You obviously have quite high sense of self worth(arrogance) which is quite common amongst young males of your background that I have worked with. Unfortunately, these narcissistic leanings are usually not based on ability. You may be in fact an excellent aviator but you are in absolutely no position to determine a pilots suitability as a Captain because they disagree with you. If anything, it should be the other way around. By questioning someone's skills and abilities based on their replies and whether or not they agree with your opinions you merely show your own lack of professionalism, maturity, objectivity and tendency to remain calm under pressure or duress. BTW, the previously listed characteristics tend to partially embody what I would consider a good aviator. Additionally, I can't help but notice that you have made it your policy on this thread to place blame on all the safety problems in Afrika and all of Afrika's woes on neo-colonialism, foreign influence and corruption(also blamed on foreigners). This mentality is exactly why Afrikan aviation is unsafe. Your lack of accountability and responsibility, racism, xenophobia and overall tendency to blame others is precisely why aviation on this continent is unsafe. I also couldn't help but notice that you are an F/O for a Brit company. If you are such an aviation expert and safety minded and an Afrikan patriot, perhaps your skills would be less selfishly put to use back in Afrika at an Afrikan company instead of being "exploited" for your abilities by an evil foreign devil(V Atlantic). YOUR attitude is commonplace here and THIS attitude that you and so many on this continent have is why Afrikan aviation is unsafe. I have answered the question of your posting, you're welcome. PS, if you think the colonials were bad, just wait for the Chinese...
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4runner,
I think you may want to double check on your information profiling for "Vuka".
It's quite easy to get things mixed up when you're stressed. Did you also mention you're just about having a "Chinese takeaway" I love the ginger/garlic prawn with steamed rice. You should try that. It has both a satisfying as well as calming effect.
Then when you feel a bit better, just get back on the couch and tell me all about those innermost, resentful but sincere and deep fears you have towards "Mr.Vuka".
though I'm paid by the hour, this is on the house!
Vuka,
I do apologize, I think you've just been mistakenly shot and buried.
Shall we just call it "human error" and shake 4runner's hand.
I think you may want to double check on your information profiling for "Vuka".
It's quite easy to get things mixed up when you're stressed. Did you also mention you're just about having a "Chinese takeaway" I love the ginger/garlic prawn with steamed rice. You should try that. It has both a satisfying as well as calming effect.
Then when you feel a bit better, just get back on the couch and tell me all about those innermost, resentful but sincere and deep fears you have towards "Mr.Vuka".
though I'm paid by the hour, this is on the house!Vuka,
I do apologize, I think you've just been mistakenly shot and buried.
Shall we just call it "human error" and shake 4runner's hand.
Last edited by DRPAM007; 16th Aug 2011 at 14:24.
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Ah, but Vuka is 'previously disadvantaged' and will go to the grave using that as an excuse for everything. It's a great card to play, along with the race card.
What these guys forget is that no one born in SA after about 1990 was disadvantaged, and that those of paler complexions are the currently disadvantaged.
What these guys forget is that no one born in SA after about 1990 was disadvantaged, and that those of paler complexions are the currently disadvantaged.
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Some aviation in Africa is as safe as the best in class throughout the world. Overall, unfortunately Africa has a bad safety record. The statistics speak for themselves.
Nigeria provides a good case study in the reasons why the hull loss rate in Africa is unacceptably high.
http://www.icao.int/highLevel/docs/HLM-AFI_Nigeria.pdf
The South African experience is better (but still not good in the GA area as a % of aircraft movements or hours flown).
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20cent...Statistics.pdf
Some general comments on the African experience
http://flightsafety.org/asw/july08/a...y08_p18-22.pdf
Nigeria provides a good case study in the reasons why the hull loss rate in Africa is unacceptably high.
http://www.icao.int/highLevel/docs/HLM-AFI_Nigeria.pdf
The South African experience is better (but still not good in the GA area as a % of aircraft movements or hours flown).
http://www.caa.co.za/resource%20cent...Statistics.pdf
Some general comments on the African experience
http://flightsafety.org/asw/july08/a...y08_p18-22.pdf
Last edited by Cacophonix; 19th Aug 2011 at 05:01.
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Thanks Cacophonix for the info. Africa's situation is that of a mixed bag; containg the good, the bad and the ugly. unfortunately, the generic external picture is that of the "ugly". There may have been some progress in the last 5 years, but it is definitely too slow to keep up with technology and industry trends. Personally, I'm of the opinion that without regional synergy, the short-medium term safety target of the lowering the hull loss rate to the current global average will remain elusive.
The question is what the winning "synergic strategy"?
The question is what the winning "synergic strategy"?
Last edited by DRPAM007; 23rd Aug 2011 at 22:45.
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Cacophonix : The report on Nigerian aviation would look good if you had never had any dealings with the man who prepared it. A very arrogant man with very deep pockets.
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DRPAM007
The question is what the winning "synergic strategy"?
Sir in reply to your question.
Africa should be re-colonised. ( The Chinese are already doing this in Africa and the rest of the world doesnt seem to have any issues with this so no ethical problems with this )
Each colonising ( lets call them 'sponsor' countries) country gets a territory or country to 'take care' of and provide and develop infrastructure, education, hospitals , medicine, expertise, running water , electricity, roads, railways, harbours, churches, universities, sky scrapers, communication networks, safe and modern aviation infrastuctures, functional un corrupt and efficient civil services etc etc.
Because all these things cost alot of money the sponsor country gets the exclusive mineral rights for every country that they are sponsoring. ( Sounds fair right ?)
The sponsor country will be resononsible for drawing the local populations into the new system ultimately aiming for a situation in the future where the local populations will be able to run their countries and infrastructures efficiently and properly. ( Not simply handing perfectly functioning economies over to semi litereate communist governments like what happend in the previous de-colonisation of Africa)
Once proper administration and controll of each country is achieved, aviation safety could be adressed, amongst a multitude of other exsisting deficiencies.
Obviously the nothern hemisphere liberals would cry foul on this plan but then they could be sent on a one way trip to Mogadisho where they could get a reality 'snot-klap' and hopefully learn the difference between African political theory versus African political reality.
Anyone ??
The question is what the winning "synergic strategy"?
Sir in reply to your question.
Africa should be re-colonised. ( The Chinese are already doing this in Africa and the rest of the world doesnt seem to have any issues with this so no ethical problems with this )
Each colonising ( lets call them 'sponsor' countries) country gets a territory or country to 'take care' of and provide and develop infrastructure, education, hospitals , medicine, expertise, running water , electricity, roads, railways, harbours, churches, universities, sky scrapers, communication networks, safe and modern aviation infrastuctures, functional un corrupt and efficient civil services etc etc.
Because all these things cost alot of money the sponsor country gets the exclusive mineral rights for every country that they are sponsoring. ( Sounds fair right ?)
The sponsor country will be resononsible for drawing the local populations into the new system ultimately aiming for a situation in the future where the local populations will be able to run their countries and infrastructures efficiently and properly. ( Not simply handing perfectly functioning economies over to semi litereate communist governments like what happend in the previous de-colonisation of Africa)
Once proper administration and controll of each country is achieved, aviation safety could be adressed, amongst a multitude of other exsisting deficiencies.
Obviously the nothern hemisphere liberals would cry foul on this plan but then they could be sent on a one way trip to Mogadisho where they could get a reality 'snot-klap' and hopefully learn the difference between African political theory versus African political reality.
Anyone ??
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maxrated Excellent posting and so true,but of course saying this makes you racist .... oh ... and me too for agreeing with you.
I thought it was going to happen, then I woke up and my tea was cold!
I thought it was going to happen, then I woke up and my tea was cold!
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There you go DRPAM007, excellent solutions from max rated and capetonian, all thats remaining is implementation and voila Aviation in Africa is safe again.
Well done very informative thread full of solutions goin on here, better still i think we should enslave the whole continent for another three centuries or maybe jus kill all the Kafirs and forget the headache they are givin the rest of the world.
Well done very informative thread full of solutions goin on here, better still i think we should enslave the whole continent for another three centuries or maybe jus kill all the Kafirs and forget the headache they are givin the rest of the world.
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Is that that 'irony' thing I read about somewhere?
Jeez, I hope so! Safety can have a cultural dimension but I don't think a return to colonialism is on the cards, at least not as a form of governance, so that we will have to work with what we have.
No killing of 'Kafirs,' if you please, since I am one of those myself at times. (It is an Arabic word meaning 'non-believer,' used by some as the 'n-word,' and usually not acceptable in polite society.)
No killing of 'Kafirs,' if you please, since I am one of those myself at times. (It is an Arabic word meaning 'non-believer,' used by some as the 'n-word,' and usually not acceptable in polite society.)
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Polite society or a hypocritical one? we understand what some posters on this thread are driving at, might as well just come out and say it straight instead of feigning politeness.
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I suggest that a colonial outlook (in spirit if nothing else) would do much to set the cause of African aviation safety back.
It all comes down to the will and the finance to make things better. Trying to change the will by patronising people (at the very least) is hardly likely to result in the desired outcome.
It all comes down to the will and the finance to make things better. Trying to change the will by patronising people (at the very least) is hardly likely to result in the desired outcome.